PA PA - District Attorney Ray Gricar Mysteriously Disappeared - Bellefonte 15 April 2005 #18

[Whatever2727]

As far as I know, she did not claim that.

Pretty sure she mentions it towards the end and of either episode 5 or 6

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Pretty sure she mentions it towards the end and of either episode 5 or 6

From everything that I have heard, she did not make that claim.

 

[Whatever2727]

From everything that I have heard, she did not make that claim.

Around the 6 minute remaining mark of her last podcast immediately following her interview with Bruce Castor she says in a follow up phone call she told Bruce that mutiple law enforcement officers told her that the second mile tax returns for 2002,2003 and 2004 were in the Ray Gricer case file and were removed at some point

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Around the 6 minute remaining mark of her last podcast immediately following her interview with Bruce Castor she says in a follow up phone call she told Bruce that mutiple law enforcement officers told her that the second mile tax returns for 2002,2003 and 2004 were in the Ray Gricer case file and were removed at some point

That is not accurate. She made some mistakes, including one that Castor corrected.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Castor is referring to the Sandusky files, supposedly, from Castor's office as AG.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Do you give any credibility to Rebecca knight claiming that the second mile finances were in the Ray gricer case files in the early years of the investigation and then removed somewhere down the line

I found it, but I have never heard any suggestion of it prior to that statement.

I do have a copy of TSM's 2009 form and it lists total revenue, expenditures, employees, and board members. Also attached is are the bylaws.

 

[Whatever2727]

I found it, but I have never heard any suggestion of it prior to that statement.

I do have a copy of TSM's 2009 form and it lists total revenue, expenditures, employees, and board members. Also attached is are the bylaws.

Appreciate the response , I had read alot about this case over the years but only listened to the podcast recently and that was the first time I’d heard that mentioned .

I do think it’s weird how she just casually slid that in at the end because it’s seems like something that would give her theory a lot more validity but the way it’s just thrown in made me question the legitimacy of it

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Appreciate the response , I had read alot about this case over the years but only listened to the podcast recently and that was the first time I’d heard that mentioned .

I do think it’s weird how she just casually slid that in at the end because it’s seems like something that would give her theory a lot more validity but the way it’s just thrown in made me question the legitimacy of it

Well, this would be an investigator putting the tax returns into the file at the BPD and removing them c. 2011.

It was known by various people that RFG had investigated the case, MS, SS, and JKA, for certain. MS and JKA knew that there was a grand jury, prior to the first story, MS as early as 2009.

 

[Black Diamond]

Appreciate the response , I had read alot about this case over the years but only listened to the podcast recently and that was the first time I’d heard that mentioned .

I do think it’s weird how she just casually slid that in at the end because it’s seems like something that would give her theory a lot more validity but the way it’s just thrown in made me question the legitimacy of it

She casually slid a lot of never before heard matter of fact comments in those podcasts without mentioning any credible backup.

 

[buckfifty]

I wanted to give you a bit more detailed answer. PEF indicated that he was napping and possibly more. DZ indicated this on CNN:

"Well, there is some evidence from what his girlfriend told us towards the end before he disappeared. He was a little more depressed in the sense that he wasn`t as active as he had been, he was not feeling well, he was taking longer naps, a little more moody."

A reporter who interviewed him on 3/8/05 asked him about the DA's race. He had endorsed MTM in the GOP primary and the reporter, Bill Joseph, asked him about JKA running. This is how Joseph characterized the response:

"I was surprised that the question seemed to stun Gricar, or at least to leave him at a loss. He had been so fluid with his answers about the spring primary. But when asked to look beyond that, he stumbled in getting his toughts into words and never really came up with a coherent answer. The difference was remarkable."

On 3/9/05, court administrator Cheryl Spotts was in a with him and a judge. Here is how she characterized it in a story:

"It just seemed that Ray wasn't with it," Spotts said. "He was just looking around, which kind of shocked me because this was a death-penalty case."

At one point, [Judge] Brown told Gricar he had two weeks available in October for the trial.

"Ray just turned and looked at the bookcases," Spotts said. "He didn't even look at the judge when he said it.

"He just said, 'I won't be here,' " Spotts said.

JKA wrote:

"I have no doubt that Ray was deeply distraught about something the week of his disappearance. It went well beyond simple busyness or preoccupation."
And:

I was asked [on Saturday, 4/16/05, at about 11:30 AM] if I had noticed anything unusual about Ray's behavior that week, and told him that Ray had seemed distraught about something earlier that week. I was told that he [Officer Darryl Zaccagni] had already talked to various other staff members before calling me and that "everyone is telling me [Officer Zaccagni] the same thing".

The people at Prison Board Meeting of 4/14/05 described his as, "There physically but not mentally." "Staring out the window." "Mumbling answers."

Now the first two may be coincidence. RFG may have been taken by surprise JKA was running; he had endorsed MTM. His birthday was in October, and he generally took his vacation at that time. These others do not have the same explanation.

This is pretty heavy when you read all of the quotes together in one post, like you have it.

I am sure this has been brought up or asked about before, but for the first time, I am wondering about health concerns. Obviously, his health records are private. But if Ray listed PEF or his daughter as an emergency contact with certain doctors, he may have also given one of them rights to his medical records with that specific physician. Thus, I would think those asking questions of PEF and/or his daughter would have asked about possible recent health concerns. And if neither of them had rights to key health records, then I am wondering about the possibility of a bombshell from a recent doctor's visit...where no one would have the right to obtain this information.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This is pretty heavy when you read all of the quotes together in one post, like you have it.

I am sure this has been brought up or asked about before, but for the first time, I am wondering about health concerns. Obviously, his health records are private. But if Ray listed PEF or his daughter as an emergency contact with certain doctors, he may have also given one of them rights to his medical records with that specific physician. Thus, I would think those asking questions of PEF and/or his daughter would have asked about possible recent health concerns. And if neither of them had rights to key health records, then I am wondering about the possibility of a bombshell from a recent doctor's visit...where no one would have the right to obtain this information.

No, though PEF had suggested that he see a doctor. Sloan had said that RFG did not even like to take an aspirin.

In the post, I was trying to show a time line.

 

[xTheTruthIsOutTherex]

I know it's been talked about, but let's do a refresh of the information. Is it possible that RG is alive and why did he start a new life at 59, now 79? Why not reappear and spend his final years with his daughter?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I know it's been talked about, but let's do a refresh of the information. Is it possible that RG is alive and why did he start a new life at 59, now 79? Why not reappear and spend his final years with his daughter?

It is very possible that he left voluntarily, though he would approaching his 80th birthday.

His pension and insurance were paid out. In theory, if he shows up, he would have to pay it back, possibly with interest.

From an earlier blog:

"While discussing potential motives, one frequent poster on a message, Big Cat, said, “In the case of RFG, the simplest hypothesis possible is he did nothing, he was ashamed, he walked away.” I might not use the word “ashamed” but something like that is possible. Mr. Gricar could have heard the rumors about Mr. Sandusky from two incidents in the early 2000’s, the incident witnessed by the janitor, James Calhoun, and the incident witnessed by Mike McQueary. Mr. Gricar obviously couldn’t have prosecuted based on rumors, but he could see that something could come out. He might have even been worried civil liability, or didn’t want Sara Ganim or a CNN news crew parked in front of his house asking why he didn’t prosecute in 1998.

That could be a broader motive. Mr. Gricar might not have wanted to “the ex-DA,” having to field questions about what he did in prior cases, or even what he would do differently from the current DA. Unlike the previous District Attorneys resident in Centre County, Mr. Gricar’s tenure was long, and he would be the person the media would go to. He might not have wanted that, to be hounded by the press forever.

Of course, if Mr. Gricar did walk away, the furthest thing from his mind on 4/15/05 might have been Jerry Sandusky. One possible motive might have been seeing that his daughter collected his pension; my understanding is that if a sitting district attorney dies in office, the pension benefits are higher, a lump sum. Had Mr. Gricar retired and then been hit by a bus 2007, she would potential get much less. There might also be tax implications.

Mr. Gricar might have been worried about his, and his family’s, safety. Over the more than three decades he was a prosecutor, Mr. Gricar put a lot of people in jail. Somebody that he put in jail for ten years at 20 in 1996 would be getting out in 2006, at age 30, possibly very angry at Mr. Gricar. Likewise, his family and friends might be very angry at Mr. Gricar. So could a victim, or a victim’s family and friends, who that Mr. Gricar acted inappropriately. Any one of these people could show up at Mr. Gricar’s front door, with a gun, hoping to “settle the score.” Maybe Mr. Gricar wouldn’t be home, but his girlfriend and visiting daughter would be. That aggrieved person could only show up at Mr. Gricar’s front door, if they knew where his front door was. If the police cannot find Mr. Gricar, a potential murderer cannot. Apparently, a number of people thought this was a possibility as the case unfolded.

There is also the possibility that Mr. Gricar simply found the idea of vanishing intriguing and decided to do it. His professional life was just about over. His daughter lived 2000 miles away and was an adult, starting on her own life. He’d wanted to travel, and return to Europe. He also had an interest in the case of Mel Wiley, a small town Ohio police chief that vanished and apparently started over.8 Some of Mr. Gricar’s closer friends think that is what he’s done, perhaps tooling around Europe, visiting historic battlefields."

Two more:

1. He had money hidden overseas that he could not get to. If it was enough, he might have considered it worth to go there and live off of it, leaving his daughter and S.O. to get the money.

2. I do not like to think about this one, but he may have been involved in something illegal. It it were job related, and he was convicted, he'd lose his pension. It he is not there, he cannot be tried.

All, some, or none of those may be a reason.

And, you did ask.

 

[Betty P]

Mr. Gricar might have been worried about his, and his family’s, safety. Over the more than three decades he was a prosecutor, Mr. Gricar put a lot of people in jail. Somebody that he put in jail for ten years at 20 in 1996 would be getting out in 2006, at age 30, possibly very angry at Mr. Gricar. Likewise, his family and friends might be very angry at Mr. Gricar. So could a victim, or a victim’s family and friends, who that Mr. Gricar acted inappropriately. Any one of these people could show up at Mr. Gricar’s front door, with a gun, hoping to “settle the score.” Maybe Mr. Gricar wouldn’t be home, but his girlfriend and visiting daughter would be. That aggrieved person could only show up at Mr. Gricar’s front door, if they knew where his front door was. If the police cannot find Mr. Gricar, a potential murderer cannot. Apparently, a number of people thought this was a possibility as the case unfolded.

It's an interesting argument, but I look at it from the view that there are probably hundreds of thousands of county prosecutors/district attorneys in the US who retire from their jobs. Seldom if ever do any of these DA's carry out an elaborate disappearance in order to protect their families from future stalker/killers who they once sent to prison. IOW, it's possible he arranged for his own disappearance for that reason, but the odds seem very much against it.

Timeline: The child sex abuse case of Jerry Sandusky

Ten years ago, former Penn State football defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky was charged with 10 felony counts in connection with his child sex abuse that spanned decades.The Collegian looks back

www.psucollegian.com

At the time Jerry Sandusky's criminal cases were barely a blip on the radar. The university had done a pretty good job of covering it up and silencing the gossip and the victims' families. An investigation had been done and dropped due to lack of evidence. Bad publicity was avoided for the University and Second Mile. Nothing further would happen until 2009, 4 years after Ray Gricar disappeared.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Timeline: The child sex abuse case of Jerry Sandusky

Ten years ago, former Penn State football defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky was charged with 10 felony counts in connection with his child sex abuse that spanned decades.The Collegian looks back

www.psucollegian.com

At the time Jerry Sandusky's criminal cases were barely a blip on the radar. The university had done a pretty good job of covering it up and silencing the gossip and the victims' families. An investigation had been done and dropped due to lack of evidence. Bad publicity was avoided for the University and Second Mile. Nothing further would happen until 2009, 4 years after Ray Gricar disappeared.

Snipped for emphasis.

I think the idea of someone coming to get RFG is very unlikely, but he could have developed paranoia about it.

Sandusky specifically, was not known publicly, but there may have been numerous cases where RFG's judgement, even if within legal cannons, still could be second guessed. I would note that there were rumors in the early 2000's.

 

[Sor Juana]

So RG didn’t go after JS despite serious child abuse allegations. And years later, JS was convicted anyway. Some people think RG stumbled onto something bigger, maybe involving powerful figures, and was silenced before he could act. It’s possible RG knew more than he let on- maybe too much. And if someone really wanted to shut him up, the laptop in the river, the cigarette ash in his car, and the wiped digital trail all feel like the work of someone who knew exactly what they were doing. Cold, clean, no fingerprints.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So RG didn’t go after JS despite serious child abuse allegations. And years later, JS was convicted anyway. Some people think RG stumbled onto something bigger, maybe involving powerful figures, and was silenced before he could act. It’s possible RG knew more than he let on- maybe too much. And if someone really wanted to shut him up, the laptop in the river, the cigarette ash in his car, and the wiped digital trail all feel like the work of someone who knew exactly what they were doing. Cold, clean, no fingerprints.

Several problems with that:

1. RFG was generally not an investigator, nor did the DA's Office have any. He could have relied on LE or, if it was beyond the ability of the DA's Office, called in the AG. Never happened.

2. There was no record, including paper copies, of anything regarding Sandusky. The original report was faxed to the DA's Office in 1998. That was not in the DA's Office in 2011.

3. RFG would not be the DA in 8.5 months. He could not get an investigation together and charge in that time.

4. As you pointed out, Sandusky was prosecuted. Whether RFG lived or died, there was going to be another prosecutor in 2006.

5. RFG wanted what ever was on the laptop gone. He bought an erasure disk in early 2004. He also ask Lux, a public defender, how to do it. Finally, we have the searches, made from his desktop, about "water damage," to a computer.

 

[Whatever2727]

Several problems with that:

1. RFG was generally not an investigator, nor did the DA's Office have any. He could have relied on LE or, if it was beyond the ability of the DA's Office, called in the AG. Never happened.

2. There was no record, including paper copies, of anything regarding Sandusky. The original report was faxed to the DA's Office in 1998. That was not in the DA's Office in 2011.

3. RFG would not be the DA in 8.5 months. He could not get an investigation together and charge in that time.

4. As you pointed out, Sandusky was prosecuted. Whether RFG lived or died, there was going to be another prosecutor in 2006.

5. RFG wanted what ever was on the laptop gone. He bought an erasure disk in early 2004. He also ask Lux, a public defender, how to do it. Finally, we have the searches, made from his desktop, about "water damage," to a computer.

Any theories on why none of the women he had met with in the weeks before his disappearance ever came forward? This was one of the strangest and biggest cases in PA and it’s strange that none of these women have been identified. You have the woman he met with the day of his disappearance , the woman from the boat dock a week or two prior and the possible sighting of him with a woman in a car behind the court house

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Any theories on why none of the women he had met with in the weeks before his disappearance ever came forward? This was one of the strangest and biggest cases in PA and it’s strange that none of these women have been identified. You have the woman he met with the day of his disappearance , the woman from the boat dock a week or two prior and the possible sighting of him with a woman in a car behind the court house

Yes, because in the one case that we have documented, it was his girlfriend, PEF. That was the case in the Tyrone sighting.

 

[Black Diamond]

I know it's been talked about, but let's do a refresh of the information. Is it possible that RG is alive and why did he start a new life at 59, now 79? Why not reappear and spend his final years with his daughter?

There is a very good chance Ray was dead on 4/16/05. There’s a much greater chance he’s dead today. Highly unlikely he’s alive today in my opinion.

I think if he did walk away and is still alive there is almost 100% certainty that he has contacted his daughter by now. Very likely within the first year of walking. Someone who loves their child, who trusts their child, would have to make that contact. It just makes 0 sense that he would not contact her.

If you think about it the right way, his daughter is by far the best chance we have at ever knowing what happened to Ray. If he walked away, she knows the story. If he committed suicide and his body disappeared, it’s not going to be found at this point and will be forever a mystery. If he was killed, the killer(s) covered their tracks well and time only makes it less likely that evidence comes out.