PA - Ellen Greenberg, 27, Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing, ruled suicide but possible homicide, Jan 2011

[snarast]

That's what I'm wondering. Was it, say, just a random keystroke anyone could have done? Or was she still posting grades?

But now I'm wondering how some on else else could have done it so quickly and quietly in daylight.

Say someone was in the apartment already, waiting. Sam leaves, the person strikes...where? Using what? Her phone was left in the bathroom. That seems like a unlikely place to ambush someone. Was the large gash on the back of her head from the initial blow? What item was used to make it? And where is all the blood?

Say she was still working on her computer, her phone forgotten in the bathroom (she seems like someone who was on it constantly, I don't think she would have left it for long if she forgot it in another room.) And someone snuck up and hit her from behind. Again, where's the blood? She ended up in the kitchen, why didn't she scream or run for the door? She cornered herself in the kitchen maybe looking for a weapon? Why was the towel she grabbed not used for any of her wounds? It didn't have blood on it.

If the initial attack knocked her out, she must have been carried or dragged to the kitchen...but again, where is the blood? Head wounds bleed like crazy. If someone was stabbing her in a frenzy, why wasn't there blood everywhere? Even up on the ceiling. And the perp should have had a decent amount of blood on him/her. Did they shower? Change clothes? Is there a garbage chute they used for evidence? Did no one see them walking to and from their apartment? This was dinnertime; when they left, they would have had to fix the lock and that would look weird and take a few extra seconds I'm guessing; who would chance that while people are getting home from work?

Is it even possible to kill someone and clean up thoroughly in an hour?

I'd like to know what the cleaning crew remember.

I wish that towel was in evidence storage and could be analyzed. what was a bathroom towel doing there???

 

[Sweeper2000]

Hey guys. Totally new on the thread but wanted to post a yt vid from a criminal analyst specialist on the case. Her name is Laura Richards and she's an experienced and accomplished crime analyst with heaps of relevant experience. Please do give her channel a visit.

 

[arielilane]

Not sure if Derrick Levasseur is an approved source, but he put out an episode with Rhode Island pathologist Dr. Priya Banergee and I found it incredibly compelling. They get very detailed about specific injuries. I watched it twice today.

I thought Dr. Priya Banerjee M.D. had a brilliant way of explaining the autopsy report/findings so that the layperson could understand. She's an outstanding forensic pathologist.

In my opinion, it appeared to be a homicide, but, could have been marked undetermined. No way, a suicide.

 

[rob525]

I just finished the Detective Perspective podcast and listened to the interview with Dr. Banerjee. I agree that it was done well and very informative. I have heard nothing that remotely supports suicide although this is a weird case to try to explain. Reason being, I haven't really heard much that would lead me to believe the husband would go to this extreme without prior and definite warning signs.
However, I can only make remote sense of one suicide scenario. If you suspend believe and assume that she could have stabbed herself in the neck and spine before stabbing herself in the chest ( I am assuming that it has been confirmed to be from the same knife although I do not recall that being stated in the podcast), then a complete separation from reality would have to have happened. I do not know much about this sort of thing or if such an acute and drastic break is possible. I have hear of folks having such a thing happen but do not know if those accounts were even factual.
I have also wondered, if the timeline, witnesses and video evidence supports the husbands story, could there have been someone in the apartment when he broke down the door that managed to slip out as he was checking on Ellen? Doesn't seem likely however, it seems far more likely than a suicide.

 

[Megnut]

One point of curiosity for me -- the locked door.

If a victim is found behind a verifiably locked door (no physical way for someone else to have entered), as questionable as the injuries are, one would have to rule self-inflicted. Obvious issue: just how locked was the room (apartment)? Crime theoretically could have occurred before the room/apartment was locked -- there are other ways to interpret the data -- but I'm just curious about that lock. It doesn't fit for me that, in the midst of her frenzied attack on herself, she would have had the forethought to latch the door. Maybe but it stands out.

I know that my position is unpopular -- that her medications may have created a psychotic break resulting in unimaginable, unexplainable injuries -- but in looking for evidence to support that, is it possible that they engaged in a disagreement before he left for the gym, that when he left, he left forcefully and that's what latched the door? Is it really possible for it to fall into the locked position without someone manually engaging it?

I'm not even talking about a knock down, drawn out fight. Just a disagreement, ending in frustration. Over grading. Over dinner plans. In fact, maybe that's why he went TO the gym, to burn off steam.

I'm not looking to defend myself against 'homicide' as I'm aware of why that seems 100% like the only explanation. I'm trying to figure out for myself what happened that day, resulting in those injuries, to a first grade teacher who had been making salad, grading papers and planning dinner.

Because what if there just isn't any evidence she wasn't alone? No cctv. No bloody footprints. No blood droplets. No evidence of a clean up.

(I think the pharmaceuticals are to blame here. As seemingly-impossible as her iniuries are.)

JMO

 

[rescuemom]

I just finished the Detective Perspective podcast and listened to the interview with Dr. Banerjee. I agree that it was done well and very informative. I have heard nothing that remotely supports suicide although this is a weird case to try to explain. Reason being, I haven't really heard much that would lead me to believe the husband would go to this extreme without prior and definite warning signs.
However, I can only make remote sense of one suicide scenario. If you suspend believe and assume that she could have stabbed herself in the neck and spine before stabbing herself in the chest ( I am assuming that it has been confirmed to be from the same knife although I do not recall that being stated in the podcast), then a complete separation from reality would have to have happened. I do not know much about this sort of thing or if such an acute and drastic break is possible. I have hear of folks having such a thing happen but do not know if those accounts were even factual.
I have also wondered, if the timeline, witnesses and video evidence supports the husbands story, could there have been someone in the apartment when he broke down the door that managed to slip out as he was checking on Ellen? Doesn't seem likely however, it seems far more likely than a suicide.

I haven't really heard much that would lead me to believe the husband would go to this extreme without prior and definite warning signs.

In my experience with hundreds of DV victims whose stories are pretty much the same, the abuser is very cunning and their actions are sometimes only known to the victim. This did not happen overnight. IMO, there were other previous incidents. She had bruises in different stages of healing. The abuser usually doesn't just snap. Could be a series of incidents, control, intimidation, verbal or emotional, financiall abuse that then escalates. To the public the abuser appears 'normal' but in a setting where they feel comfortable they are abusive. At their very core they are cowards.

The victim is hesitant to acknowledge even to themselves that this is happening to them and always hopeful things will change. By the time thay seek help they have been reduced to such fear and anxiety they can hardly function. They are embarassed that the facade they portrayed will be discovered. Often, they have children and/or pets thay have to think about when trying to make an escape. Of have no money of their own.

Sadly in this day and age, DV is still an insignificant crime. LE hesitates to intervene because "he/she hasn't done anything yet" and yes females can be the abuser and then it is often too late. It is a sad and uphill battle for them. Still.

IMO, if nothing else, EG was giving signals of leaving the relationship which would trigger an extreme incident. We know that the most dangerous time for a victim is when they try to leave the abuser. At that time the abuser is threatened with loss of control, fear of abandonment, etc..

EG had stopped wearing her engagement ring. She may have called off the wedding. She had a bag packed, her packed toiletries were in the bathroom. She was ready to leave. May be why the bathroom towel was in the kitchen. She may have been attacked, possibly just verbally and it moved to the kitchen. We don't know because there was no investigation.

IMO, this was not a suicide. This was a murder and a cover up. It happens often but I fail to understand the power some have to sway an investigation or lack there of and includes so many participants.

 

[snarast]

One point of curiosity for me -- the locked door.

If a victim is found behind a verifiably locked door (no physical way for someone else to have entered), as questionable as the injuries are, one would have to rule self-inflicted. Obvious issue: just how locked was the room (apartment)? Crime theoretically could have occurred before the room/apartment was locked -- there are other ways to interpret the data -- but I'm just curious about that lock. It doesn't fit for me that, in the midst of her frenzied attack on herself, she would have had the forethought to latch the door. Maybe but it stands out.

I know that my position is unpopular -- that her medications may have created a psychotic break resulting in unimaginable, unexplainable injuries -- but in looking for evidence to support that, is it possible that they engaged in a disagreement before he left for the gym, that when he left, he left forcefully and that's what latched the door? Is it really possible for it to fall into the locked position without someone manually engaging it?

I'm not even talking about a knock down, drawn out fight. Just a disagreement, ending in frustration. Over grading. Over dinner plans. In fact, maybe that's why he went TO the gym, to burn off steam.

I'm not looking to defend myself against 'homicide' as I'm aware of why that seems 100% like the only explanation. I'm trying to figure out for myself what happened that day, resulting in those injuries, to a first grade teacher who had been making salad, grading papers and planning dinner.

Because what if there just isn't any evidence she wasn't alone? No cctv. No bloody footprints. No blood droplets. No evidence of a clean up.

(I think the pharmaceuticals are to blame here. As seemingly-impossible as her iniuries are.)

JMO

The problem is - those levels of klonipin and zolpediem were very low, as I recall.

nobody has ever stabbed themselves to death after first stabbing themselves into the brain - right?

nobody has ever stabbed themselves to death after first stabbing themselves in the dural sac - right?

has anyone ever run amok performing herculean feats of strength and precision in order to kill themselves - from low levels of klonipin and zolpidiem?

And if nobody has - how likely is it that a woman who has to get help getting the snow off her car that very day (ref: 603 doc, her colleague) would be the first?

I don’t think it’s likely. That said - I don’t have time to research and numbercruch to get any kind of quasi-scientific analysis going. so I can’t be 100% sure. of course.

IMHOO

 

[rob525]

One point of curiosity for me -- the locked door.

If a victim is found behind a verifiably locked door (no physical way for someone else to have entered), as questionable as the injuries are, one would have to rule self-inflicted. Obvious issue: just how locked was the room (apartment)? Crime theoretically could have occurred before the room/apartment was locked -- there are other ways to interpret the data -- but I'm just curious about that lock. It doesn't fit for me that, in the midst of her frenzied attack on herself, she would have had the forethought to latch the door. Maybe but it stands out.

I know that my position is unpopular -- that her medications may have created a psychotic break resulting in unimaginable, unexplainable injuries -- but in looking for evidence to support that, is it possible that they engaged in a disagreement before he left for the gym, that when he left, he left forcefully and that's what latched the door? Is it really possible for it to fall into the locked position without someone manually engaging it?

I'm not even talking about a knock down, drawn out fight. Just a disagreement, ending in frustration. Over grading. Over dinner plans. In fact, maybe that's why he went TO the gym, to burn off steam.

I'm not looking to defend myself against 'homicide' as I'm aware of why that seems 100% like the only explanation. I'm trying to figure out for myself what happened that day, resulting in those injuries, to a first grade teacher who had been making salad, grading papers and planning dinner.

Because what if there just isn't any evidence she wasn't alone? No cctv. No bloody footprints. No blood droplets. No evidence of a clean up.

(I think the pharmaceuticals are to blame here. As seemingly-impossible as her iniuries are.)

JMO

Yes. the locked door is a puzzler ( If it was truly locked). I do agree that EG locking the door amounts to someone performing a logical and coherent action while in the midst of a totally illogical and not reasonable episode. Seems like it would have required a moment of clarity that does not seem possible. I also believe that I have read others say that it would be possible to shut the door with velocity and/or force thus causing the latch to engage. I will have to find that.
However, as puzzling as the locked door is, the fact that she would have had to stab herself in the back of the neck / brain and spine and then in the chest is difficult to fathom. I know one doctor was reported to have said that the stab to the spine would not have prevented further action. But, I believe that doctor also said, later, that they never reviewed the case.

 

[rob525]

I haven't really heard much that would lead me to believe the husband would go to this extreme without prior and definite warning signs.

In my experience with hundreds of DV victims whose stories are pretty much the same, the abuser is very cunning and their actions are sometimes only known to the victim. This did not happen overnight. IMO, there were other previous incidents. She had bruises in different stages of healing. The abuser usually doesn't just snap. Could be a series of incidents, control, intimidation, verbal or emotional, financiall abuse that then escalates. To the public the abuser appears 'normal' but in a setting where they feel comfortable they are abusive. At their very core they are cowards.

The victim is hesitant to acknowledge even to themselves that this is happening to them and always hopeful things will change. By the time thay seek help they have been reduced to such fear and anxiety they can hardly function. They are embarassed that the facade they portrayed will be discovered. Often, they have children and/or pets thay have to think about when trying to make an escape. Of have no money of their own.

Sadly in this day and age, DV is still an insignificant crime. LE hesitates to intervene because "he/she hasn't done anything yet" and yes females can be the abuser and then it is often too late. It is a sad and uphill battle for them. Still.

IMO, if nothing else, EG was giving signals of leaving the relationship which would trigger an extreme incident. We know that the most dangerous time for a victim is when they try to leave the abuser. At that time the abuser is threatened with loss of control, fear of abandonment, etc..

EG had stopped wearing her engagement ring. She may have called off the wedding. She had a bag packed, her packed toiletries were in the bathroom. She was ready to leave. May be why the bathroom towel was in the kitchen. She may have been attacked, possibly just verbally and it moved to the kitchen. We don't know because there was no investigation.

IMO, this was not a suicide. This was a murder and a cover up. It happens often but I fail to understand the power some have to sway an investigation or lack there of and includes so many participants.

Interesting points. I wonder about the bruising. I believe that it is all in the medical examiners report. I also wonder if the bruising could have been a result of teaching younger children. My wife deals with younger and special needs children and just the other day she was bitten requiring a tetanus shot, scratched and bruised on her arm.
I was saying that there were no signs merely because, in the podcast, the husband was called "a great guy" several times.

 

[Megnut]

The problem is - those levels of klonipin and zolpediem were very low, as I recall.

nobody has ever stabbed themselves to death after first stabbing themselves into the brain - right?

nobody has ever stabbed themselves to death after first stabbing themselves in the dural sac - right?

has anyone ever run amok performing herculean feats of strength and precision from low levels of klonipin and zolpidiem?

IMHOO

I know your questions are rhetorical and I get it. These seem to be impossible injuries. Biomechanically impossible. There is no shortage of opinion that someone else had to have inflicted those injuries on her -- I was 100% in that camp myself.

And that leaves someone known to her or someone unknown to her. HDV (homicidal domestic violence) is the obvious direction to look.

I'm just choosing to look at it from the position that she was alone when it happened. Not to make light but like an Encyclopia Brown puzzler -- lone man, dead in a locked room, no chair or ladder, how did he die? (He stood on a block of ice.)

So, if I start with that premise (shaky as it might be) and she was in fact alone in the apartment, WTH happened? If it's pharmaceutical in nature, maybe it wasn't what she was taking and how much but rather a wrong combination or even a down-adjustment. Those meds can be very volatile IMO and cause all sorts of side-effects, including an INCREASE in the anxiety and ideation it was intended to treat.

I'm reminded of a mother, being treated heavily for post partum, who sent her husband to get take-out, murdered her littles, and jumped out a window, surviving with a severe spinal cord injury. Utter devastation, utterly out of character.

Yes, there might be DV in this case, she may have indeed been planning to leave. I don't discount that at all.

I'm just aware, from headline after headline (actually family story after family story) how quickly someone can go from not suicidal to suicidal, and often while taking the very meds that are supposed to prevent that.

So, coming from my unpopular position that she was alone -- occurred while he was at the gym -- and not intruders -- I'm left to consider how this could have happened.

Tentative cuts. I can reconcile that. Strangulation marks. I can reconcile that. Maybe she tried and aborted. They say that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. (I make no judgment, I minimize nothing, I use it to illustrate.)

Maybe she accidentally cut herself was cutting fruit... and the bloodletting panicked her.... or gave her an unexpected relief... I don't mean to get inside the mind of another person... and if she's the victim of a crime, I don't want to look like I'm blaming the victim. Truly I'm trying to understand whether it's possible this occurred without a second party.

Bent down, head well below one's knees, makes the back of the head very accessible.

In the end, it's a tragedy how ever it occurred. Such a beautiful, intelligent, bright light lost-- and shrouded in mystery, accusation, conspiracy.

I don't know that it'll ever be resolved to any/everyone's satisfaction.

JMO

 

[snarast]

I know your questions are rhetorical and I get it. These seem to be impossible injuries. Biomechanically impossible. There is no shortage of opinion that someone else had to have inflicted those injuries on her -- I was 100% in that camp myself.

And that leaves someone known to her or someone unknown to her. HDV (homicidal domestic violence) is the obvious direction to look.

I'm just choosing to look at it from the position that she was alone when it happened. Not to make light but like an Encyclopia Brown puzzler -- lone man, dead in a locked room, no chair or ladder, how did he die? (He stood on a block of ice.)

So, if I start with that premise (shaky as it might be) and she was in fact alone in the apartment, WTH happened? If it's pharmaceutical in nature, maybe it wasn't what she was taking and how much but rather a wrong combination or even a down-adjustment. Those meds can be very volatile IMO and cause all sorts of side-effects, including an INCREASE in the anxiety and ideation it was intended to treat.

I'm reminded of a mother, being treated heavily for post partum, who sent her husband to get take-out, murdered her littles, and jumped out a window, surviving with a severe spinal cord injury. Utter devastation, utterly out of character.

Yes, there might be DV in this case, she may have indeed been planning to leave. I don't discount that at all.

I'm just aware, from headline after headline (actually family story after family story) how quickly someone can go from not suicidal to suicidal, and often while taking the very meds that are supposed to prevent that.

So, coming from my unpopular position that she was alone -- occurred while he was at the gym -- and not intruders -- I'm left to consider how this could have happened.

Tentative cuts. I can reconcile that. Strangulation marks. I can reconcile that. Maybe she tried and aborted. They say that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. (I make no judgment, I minimize nothing, I use it to illustrate.)

Maybe she accidentally cut herself was cutting fruit... and the bloodletting panicked her.... or gave her an unexpected relief... I don't mean to get inside the mind of another person... and if she's the victim of a crime, I don't want to look like I'm blaming the victim. Truly I'm trying to understand whether it's possible this occurred without a second party.

Bent down, head well below one's knees, makes the back of the head very accessible.

In the end, it's a tragedy how ever it occurred. Such a beautiful, intelligent, bright light lost-- and shrouded in mystery, accusation, conspiracy.

I don't know that it'll ever be resolved to any/everyone's satisfaction.

JMO

BBM

But have you seen the neatness of those cuts? It’s an exhibition of sheer precision, to quote a famous song.

How does one accomplish that with no visual access to the area of incision?

I agree we’ll never know.

That’s why undetermined would be the best label.

IMHOO

 

[Occam's Zebra]

One point of curiosity for me -- the locked door.

If a victim is found behind a verifiably locked door (no physical way for someone else to have entered), as questionable as the injuries are, one would have to rule self-inflicted. Obvious issue: just how locked was the room (apartment)? Crime theoretically could have occurred before the room/apartment was locked -- there are other ways to interpret the data -- but I'm just curious about that lock. It doesn't fit for me that, in the midst of her frenzied attack on herself, she would have had the forethought to latch the door. Maybe but it stands out.

I know that my position is unpopular -- that her medications may have created a psychotic break resulting in unimaginable, unexplainable injuries -- but in looking for evidence to support that, is it possible that they engaged in a disagreement before he left for the gym, that when he left, he left forcefully and that's what latched the door? Is it really possible for it to fall into the locked position without someone manually engaging it?

I'm not even talking about a knock down, drawn out fight. Just a disagreement, ending in frustration. Over grading. Over dinner plans. In fact, maybe that's why he went TO the gym, to burn off steam.

I'm not looking to defend myself against 'homicide' as I'm aware of why that seems 100% like the only explanation. I'm trying to figure out for myself what happened that day, resulting in those injuries, to a first grade teacher who had been making salad, grading papers and planning dinner.

Because what if there just isn't any evidence she wasn't alone? No cctv. No bloody footprints. No blood droplets. No evidence of a clean up.

(I think the pharmaceuticals are to blame here. As seemingly-impossible as her iniuries are.)

JMO

IMHO she told him she was leaving him and he snapped. Afterward he realized he had two options - blame it on an intruder, or blame it on her. Given the CCTV in the lobby, blaming an intruder wouldn't be prudent. It also would lead to the establishment of a crime scene with all that entails. But blaming EG herself for her death meant that there would be no crime scene.

I think it's ludicrous to believe that she stabbed herself 20 times and hit herself in the back of the head. The evidence speaks for itself. SG manipulated the circumstances (insisting EG was fine when he left for the gym and then the door was locked when he came back, so no one else could have done this but her) and people believed him. As others have said, if he were a brown or black man and they were in a lower-income neighborhood, his story would not have gone anywhere and he'd be in prison at this point.

All MOO IMHO etc.

 

[rescuemom]

Interesting points. I wonder about the bruising. I believe that it is all in the medical examiners report. I also wonder if the bruising could have been a result of teaching younger children. My wife deals with younger and special needs children and just the other day she was bitten requiring a tetanus shot, scratched and bruised on her arm.
I was saying that there were no signs merely because, in the podcast, the husband was called "a great guy" several times.

I'm sure to those select few who were interviewed he could have been thought to be "a great guy" Behind closed doors he could have been a monster. Happens all the time. Example is his threatening messages to her just because she was not answering his texts or opening the door. Those texts could have been part of his act to establish an alibi and fit his story. In hindsight they were threatening and really not a good look for him.

 

[Gordon_]

I'm sure to those select few who were interviewed he could have been thought to be "a great guy" Behind closed doors he could have been a monster. Happens all the time. Example is his threatening messages to her just because she was not answering his texts or opening the door. Those texts could have been part of his act to establish an alibi and fit his story. In hindsight they were threatening and really not a good look for him.

It really does happen all the time abusers and monsters wear a mask in public and to everyone else, but they can be mean and abusive to their partner behind closed door etc.

 

[sunspun]

IMHO she told him she was leaving him and he snapped. Afterward he realized he had two options - blame it on an intruder, or blame it on her. Given the CCTV in the lobby, blaming an intruder wouldn't be prudent. It also would lead to the establishment of a crime scene with all that entails. But blaming EG herself for her death meant that there would be no crime scene.

I think it's ludicrous to believe that she stabbed herself 20 times and hit herself in the back of the head. The evidence speaks for itself. SG manipulated the circumstances (insisting EG was fine when he left for the gym and then the door was locked when he came back, so no one else could have done this but her) and people believed him. As others have said, if he were a brown or black man and they were in a lower-income neighborhood, his story would not have gone anywhere and he'd be in prison at this point.

All MOO IMHO etc.

I need to clarify some points for myself...

The phone call to his relative was made while he was pounding on their door trying to get in, right? But the call he made was to a cousin of his, not his lawyer uncle, correct?

The cousin was the son of the lawyer uncle, I believe. Was the cousin in law school? The cousin didn't live with the lawyer uncle, did he? Was there an attempt to call the lawyer uncle before the cousin? Did SG have the lawyer uncle's contact info in his phone?

How did SG end up on the phone with the uncle? Did his cousin call the uncle and have him call SG? Or did the cousin call the uncle and just tell him to go to SG? Or did SG call the uncle after first calling the cousin?

I'm not sure if the uncle just showed up, or if SG talked to him on the phone first. When the uncle did arrive, had SG broken in the door yet? Had he called 911 yet? Had the police arrived yet?

Thanks for any help with these questions!

 

[snarast]

I need to clarify some points for myself...

The phone call to his relative was made while he was pounding on their door trying to get in, right? But the call he made was to a cousin of his, not his lawyer uncle, correct?

The cousin was the son of the lawyer uncle, I believe. Was the cousin in law school? The cousin didn't live with the lawyer uncle, did he? Was there an attempt to call the lawyer uncle before the cousin? Did SG have the lawyer uncle's contact info in his phone?

How did SG end up on the phone with the uncle? Did his cousin call the uncle and have him call SG? Or did the cousin call the uncle and just tell him to go to SG? Or did SG call the uncle after first calling the cousin?

I'm not sure if the uncle just showed up, or if SG talked to him on the phone first. When the uncle did arrive, had SG broken in the door yet? Had he called 911 yet? Had the police arrived yet?

Thanks for any help with these questions!

1. The phone calls occurred after SG wrote the SMS:s to Ellen and pounded on the door for a bit.

2. His cousin Kamian most likely was a lawyer in 2011.

3. Surveillance indicates the EMTs had arrived before Kamian and uncle.

Since LE has not dared to even look at their phones, get the records or interview anyone else but Sam - once and that was likely brief - it’s mighty hard to know the rest.

We simply don’t know. And will never know.

IMHOO

 

[snarast]

So one more thing struck me from looking at the death scene pictures. There is no blood on the cupboard cabinets she was resting against despite ten wounds to the back of her head/neck. There are smears of blood to the right of her but not behind where her neck/head was resting.

Why?

IMHOO

 

[angelofhope]

I’ve never forgotten this case since first watching on Accident, Murder, Suicide and found it completely bizarre and impossible at that time. I’m
in the UK but done lots of research over the years see if any on this. Was glad to see the new documentary which I thought had finally exposed and found the truth of what happened and was so admiring of her parents never giving up. I was shocked at the recent ruling that it was still suicide and heartbroken for her parents. What do other people think?

 

[snarast]

I’ve never forgotten this case since first watching on Accident, Murder, Suicide and found it completely bizarre and impossible at that time. I’m
in the UK but done lots of research over the years see if any on this. Was glad to see the new documentary which I thought had finally exposed and found the truth of what happened and was so admiring of her parents never giving up. I was shocked at the recent ruling that it was still suicide and heartbroken for her parents. What do other people think?

That Philly generates a lot of awesome people but is apparently extremely corrupt.

I think she her life was taken by murder, or possibly manslaughter+cover up. Reasons:

1. The two deep wounds to the back of the neck/head. Even if she was the worlds greatest gymnast she would have had to see her where she stabbed herself. Otherwise the incision marks would in all likelihood have been wider, less neat and distinctly jagged.

Additionally, stabbing oneself in the chest when already weak due to blood loss, nerve damage and brain bleed? Also, a colleague helped her brush the snow off the car that very day - she was clearly not an unusually muscular woman in the first place.

2. SG waited a very long time yo break the door open. Walking around talking to relatives before breaking down the door? Who does that?

3. The 911 call. He doesn’t see the knife until it’s right by his hands. Yet it stands out like an iceberg from her chest and is very clearly contrasted against the light cabinets.

4. The blood on her face. It’s coagulated (seems fast) and it has run the wrong way - horizontal instead of vertical.

5. The 911 call - the fact that he assumes she killed herself or…um…fell on the knife. That’s not really believable. BTK’s stalker clone could have been hiding somewhere in the apartment, what does he know.

6. Her best friend in the doc 603 says Ellen’s last call was to her but the friend didn’t pick up. I’m thinking the best friend would have dropped everything if she had ANY fears for Ellen’s wellbeing.

IMHOO