PA - Ellen Greenberg, 27, Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing, ruled suicide but possible homicide, Jan 2011

[snarast]

That 911 call has so many red flags it could be stitched into a blanket.

“Oh my gosh, she stabbed herself!”
“She fell on her knife!”
“There’s a knife sticking out of her heart!”

A) Who discovers a knife stuck in someone’s chest and automatically assumes that person stabbed themselves? Door locked or not, that’s abnormal.
B) What are the chances that someone would (or even could) fall on a knife and stab themselves in “the heart” this way?
C) How did he immediately know the knife was stuck in her heart? He was hardly a medical professional. And by hardly, I mean not at all.

He also wastes a solid 30 seconds needlessly explaining how he left his apartment x amount of time ago and then he returned but couldn’t get inside and he had to break down the door and blah blah blah before getting to the part where someone he loves desperately needs medical attention.

Hard to argue against. Anyhow, the documentary is excellent - allows for a glimpse of the pain felt by so many in Ellen’s community.

Someone should think about establishing procedures to ensure the communication between LE and ME - and the family - follows the proper iterative protocol.you can’t have crime scene clean ups prematurely. It’s irreversible.

 

[Sor Juana]

Where Is Ellen Greenberg's Fiancé Now?

Ellen's loved ones noticed some changes in her behavior after she and Goldberg began dating. Her best friend Alyson Stern recalled Ellen spending more time with Goldberg and his family and seeing less of her own friends, noting that Ellen was "closed off" about her wedding plans. Meanwhile, her colleagues noticed that she almost never wore her engagement ring, but that Ellen just told them she didn't feel like wearing it because it rolled around her finger.

 

[cherrymeg]

Hard to argue against. Anyhow, the documentary is excellent - allows for a glimpse of the pain felt by so many in Ellen’s community.

Someone should think about establishing procedures to ensure the communication between LE and ME - and the family - follows the proper iterative protocol.you can’t have crime scene clean ups prematurely. It’s irreversible.

I’ll give someone a pass for being shocked but that doesn’t mean what they say is right. You find a dead body you might say whatever pops into your head. If you aren’t the killer and had to unlock a door you might think murder isn’t possible. I think the fiancé is suspicious. This doesn’t seem like a suicide.

 

[bombardier]

One of the worst USA miscarriages of justice in recent years IMO. Absolutely embarrassing, and I think the legal system knows how embarrassing it looks for them and is thusly dragging their feet.

 

[snarast]

I had not noticed how cornered Ellen seems to have been in the kitchen. She’s just inbetween the kitchen benches that meet at a 90 degree angle. Like she had no way to get away from an assailant.

Every new shot of the crime scene is revealing.

 

[snarast]

I also think the MD should have assessed the probability of the three scenarios given that tool we call logic:

1) body did not have time to respond
2) post mortem stab by another after death
3) postmortem incision by mistake at the autopsy.

1) sound really unlikely to me, I’d like to know why a similar pattern could not be found in the last stab - the one to the heart - if so. The heart stab is the last stab, right? The heart tissue had time to respond, I take it? If it’s not the last stab - well - someone would have to take out the knife of her heart and stab her in the back. And then put the knife back into the heart.

Does anybody think she could do THAT to herself as well?

IMHOO

 

[Chimera]

I also think the MD should have assessed the probability of the three scenarios given that tool we call logic:

1) body did not have time to respond
2) post mortem stab by another after death
3) postmortem incision by mistake at the autopsy.

1) sound really unlikely to me, I’d like to know why a similar pattern could not be found in the last stab - the one to the heart - if so. The heart stab is the last stab, right? The heart tissue had time to respond, I take it? If it’s not the last stab - well - someone would have to take out the knife of her heart and stab her in the back. And then put the knife back into the heart.

Does anybody think she could do THAT to herself as well?

IMHOO

All good points !
The severity of the wounds makes it 100 % unlikely Ellen did this to herself !
Imo.

 

[Seattle1]

I also think the MD should have assessed the probability of the three scenarios given that tool we call logic:

1) body did not have time to respond
2) post mortem stab by another after death
3) postmortem incision by mistake at the autopsy.

1) sound really unlikely to me, I’d like to know why a similar pattern could not be found in the last stab - the one to the heart - if so. The heart stab is the last stab, right? The heart tissue had time to respond, I take it? If it’s not the last stab - well - someone would have to take out the knife of her heart and stab her in the back. And then put the knife back into the heart.

Does anybody think she could do THAT to herself as well?

IMHOO

As is generally true across the land, State Statute here determined the Medical Examiner responsible for providing the manner and cause of death of the victim.

By all accounts, armed with the early investigation information and autopsy report completed by the forensic examiner, Dr. Osbourne initially employed both his training and logic, as suggested by OP, when he first ruled EG's manner of death a Homicide by stabbing on January 11, 2011.

Reportedly, after police publicly disputed the ME's findings, Dr. Osbourne later changed the manner of death from Homicide to Suicide, signed on April 4, 2011.

IMO, this death investigation was the subject of police answering to powerful people that resulted in police controlling the dictated narrative--including a Death Certificate citing Suicide (i.e., ME's change to manner and cause of death), and where the ME did not come forward to correct his ruling until 14 years later and/or the eve of trial on January 31, 2025.

Fast forward to current time, where logic also provides that 14 years was more than sufficient time to eliminate any credible evidence necessary to indict, prosecute, and convict the party responsible for EG's murder. JMO

So very unfortunate that since March 2011, the lynchpin then and now has been the absolute supreme power and authority given a Medical Examiner by the state of PA and local/County government to determine an individuals legal manner of death-- without impunity!

To be clear, Dr. Osbourne, assistant ME for the County at the time, ruled EG's manner of death a HOMICIDE on January 27, 2011 following her autopsy, but after Police publicly disputed the findings, Dr. Osbourne later changed the manner of death to SUICIDE on March 7, (signed April 4, 2011).

Per Osbourne's Verification Statement dated January 31, 2025, he provided his understanding that he is no longer empowered to amend EG's death certificate because he no longer holds a PA license, and is no longer employed by the PA's ME office, but certified his belief on this date that EG's manner of death should be other than suicide.

Today the Greenberg's lawyer announced the legal action pending with the City and Supreme Court are over and they now seek the criminal investigation to EG's murder reopened ASAP.

Again, the 14 year hold up has been receiving an amended manner of death change from anything other than suicide!

EG's parents have proven so much more gracious here..... JMO

A former prosecutor's concerns with the case​

In an interview with NBC10, D'Andrea said that there were a few elements of the case that made him believe Greenberg's death should not have been categorized as a suicide.

"At a minimum, from an everyday standpoint, this is an undetermined manner of death," D'Andrea told NBC10.

First, from his review of the case file, D'Andrea argued that forensic investigation of the crime showed that Greenberg's spine was pierced during the incident, which he said would have "immediately incapacitated" her.

And, he continued, if she was incapacitated, she could have never been able to stab herself nearly two dozen times.

"She wouldn't have been able to continue to stab herself," he argued. "She would not have been able to stab herself in the chest."

Also, D'Andrea said, Greenberg's body may have been moved after her death.

According to D'Andrea, when Greenberg's body was found—in a seated position on the floor—there were traces of blood on her face that seemed to flow from her nostril to her ear, hinting that she may have been laying in a horizontal position for some time.

"She must have been laying long enough on her side for the blood to run in that direction as well as long enough that it wouldn't drag or drip when she was in a seated position," D'Andrea argued.

Yet, D'Andrea noted that both the police investigating the scene and Greenberg's fiancé, who found her after the incident, said Greenberg's body was not moved until after crime scene investigators had reviewed the scene.

Asked why this blood pattern wasn't an issue to investigators previously, D'Andrea said it should have been and argued that he had brought it up with others in the past.

"It came up as 'We've seen stranger things,'" recalled D'Andrea. "Yes, I have too, but never stranger things that have defied physics."

D'Andrea expects to discuss those issues—as well as pointing out a lack of blood found in the apartment despite Greenberg's injuries—if he is brought into court.

Former Prosecutor Guy D'Andrea Expresses Doubt

 

[Notthisshipsister]

Just my $.02 here; I hadn't heard of this case at all prior to tonight. A family member happened to have started watching the Hulu documentary. Seeing nothing of the visuals, but just hearing the 911 call as the TV blared, I asked right out loud what TV show was on with such a hokey-sounding 911 call of somebody pretending to have discovered a body, when what the caller was saying seemed so obvious that they had done something and was making up a story on the fly.
I did sit and watch the first 2 episodes of the show after that, but to me, that 911 call was just so... bizarre.

 

[snarast]

As is generally true across the land, State Statute here determined the Medical Examiner responsible for providing the manner and cause of death of the victim.

By all accounts, armed with the early investigation information and autopsy report completed by the forensic examiner, Dr. Osbourne initially employed both his training and logic, as suggested by OP, when he first ruled EG's manner of death a Homicide by stabbing on January 11, 2011.

Reportedly, after police publicly disputed the ME's findings, Dr. Osbourne later changed the manner of death from Homicide to Suicide, signed on April 4, 2011.

IMO, this death investigation was the subject of police answering to powerful people that resulted in police controlling the dictated narrative--including a Death Certificate citing Suicide (i.e., ME's change to manner and cause of death), and where the ME did not come forward to correct his ruling until 14 years later and/or the eve of trial on January 31, 2025.

Fast forward to current time, where logic also provides that 14 years was more than sufficient time to eliminate any credible evidence necessary to indict, prosecute, and convict the party responsible for EG's murder. JMO

Amen.

In case someone wondered - The MD I was referring to was the specialist that examined the tissue sample, I forgot her name and assumed she was at the very least an MD.

On that note - isn’t the error during autopsy rather unlikely considering the care with which Dr. Osbourne took to preserve the sample according to procedure? It would be quite easy for him to throw it out if he made a mistake. Instead he preserved it. Seems like he is objective, skilled and conscientious.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Ellen's parents spoke on STS.

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[wawashortie]

If you are new to Ellen’s case, this resource contains links to the police report, computer models of the stab wounds, the statement from the doorman/security etc

Ellen Greenberg Investigation Files

Ellen Greenberg Investigation case files: crime scene photos, court documents, and autopsy reports.

crimetimelines.com

 

[wawashortie]

Additional files for the Ellen Greenberg case if you’re interested in a deep dive!

Ellen Greenberg Autopsy

Explore the controversial autopsy of Ellen Greenberg, found with 20 stab wounds in 2011. Was it suicide or murder? Ongoing debate and forensic dispute

crimetimelines.com