PA - Ellen Greenberg, 27, Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing, ruled suicide but possible homicide, Jan 2011

[ADeaton]

Give the ruling, given the possibility she was truly alone, is it possible that her Rxs, intended to salve her anxiety, exacerbated it? Super human strength and the combo, fueled by Ambien, should be filed with the crazy effects some users/patients report?

Over time, warning labels found their homes on these medications, warning of preposterous behaviors and increased suicide risk.

Could it be that the mystery murderer in the sealed house is the medicine cabinet?

Could that cocktail of Rxs have pushed her anxiety over the banks and introduced suicidal/homicidial ideation where there had not been? Pretty sure that warning already exists, but for young adults who are prescribed them. She was older than a young adult but who's to say the meds (going on or off or somewhere in between) didn't do exactly that in this situation? A case if the treatment being more deadly than the disease.

I think the meds (again going on or off and while taking them) are responsible for her increasingly disordered thinking (that everything hinged on 1st grade grades) and therefore could provide the explanation for how a pleasant school teacher went from not uncommon anxiety to a frenzied attack. Biomechanically impossible, somehow upended by biochemical hulkdom.

Just Me and My Opinion, looking at this situation from the perspective of no foul play.

JMO

She could have potentially had a psychotic episode but that's usually on hard drugs from staying awake to long, like on meth or an overdose on psychedelics, acid or PCP or even sherm , they call it wet I think now. Its weed soaked in embalming fluid. The suicidal threat from anti depressants comes from coming off the medication. That's what I experienced. Most if not all the hard drugs would have shown up on a toxicology. I can't believe a person can stab themselves 20 times anywhere on there body in an attempt to kill themselves. In an attacker scenario a person could possible withstand a handful of stab wounds due to adrenaline. If you've ever accidentally cut yourself or stab yourself there's a big difference, a stab wound hurts immediately and severely even a mild one. When you are depressed everything hurts, the last thing you want to do is hurt yourself some more, you just want it to stop. You cut your wrist , something that burns for a few seconds or you put a gun to your head or eat a bunch of pills and don't feel anything, you don't mutilate yourself.

 

[mrsselig]

Justice For Ellen Greenberg | Help Reopen Ellen's Case

Advocating for justice in Ellen Greenberg's case; exploring her story, the ongoing fight for truth, and how to support efforts to reexamine her death investigation.

www.justiceforellengreenberg.com

Thank you for sharing this - I just signed the petition. I'm not sure readers here are noticing that it's a petition - it might be helpful to share again and maybe everyone will sign it! Thank you again!!!

 

[arielilane]

"It includes false claims - like the assertion that a stab wound in Ellen's spinal column was made during autopsy, a theory rejected by every credible expert, including the City's own neuropathologist," he said.

"By ignoring key evidence that contradicts suicide—the extensive 3D photogrammetry, a recreation which proves Ellen could not self-inflict all of the wounds, unexplained bruises, missing surveillance footage, an intact lock, accounts of a toxic relationship, etc.," he went on to say. "Simon builds a flimsy case on distorted portrayals of Ellen's mental health, propped up by cynical distortions of Ellen's managed anxiety, a condition widely experienced daily by over 40 million Americans. Shame on you Simon."

Philadelphia Medical Examiner re-rules Ellen Greenberg’s 2011 death by 20 stab wounds a suicide

“With all of this information considered, it is the opinion of the undersigned that the manner of Ellen Greenberg’s death is best classified as ‘suicide.’”

thepostmillennial.com

Oct. 13

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

She could have potentially had a psychotic episode but that's usually on hard drugs from staying awake to long, like on meth or an overdose on psychedelics, acid or PCP or even sherm , they call it wet I think now. Its weed soaked in embalming fluid. The suicidal threat from anti depressants comes from coming off the medication.

Snipped for focus.

That's inaccurate. Antidepressants (specifically SSRIs) are known to increase suicidal thoughts in individuals up to age 25, sometimes slightly older, when starting them. The thought is it has to do with the developing brain. That is not a reason not to be on them and I don't think it had anything to do with this case, but just wanted to clear that up. You can also have suicidal thoughts when coming off them due to the recurrence of depression.

That's what I experienced. Most if not all the hard drugs would have shown up on a toxicology. I can't believe a person can stab themselves 20 times anywhere on there body in an attempt to kill themselves. In an attacker scenario a person could possible withstand a handful of stab wounds due to adrenaline. If you've ever accidentally cut yourself or stab yourself there's a big difference, a stab wound hurts immediately and severely even a mild one. When you are depressed everything hurts, the last thing you want to do is hurt yourself some more, you just want it to stop. You cut your wrist , something that burns for a few seconds or you put a gun to your head or eat a bunch of pills and don't feel anything, you don't mutilate yourself.

This is also not entirely true. People respond differently to depression and sometimes, they do mutilate themselves.

But again, I don't think it has anything to do with this case as I would bet my house this was not a suicide. MOO.

 

[Find Brenda]

Suicide, eh? Of all the things that never happened, this never happened the most.

 

[RedRanger86]

• Blood Evidence:
• Blood was found on multiple pillows in the apartment.
• The location of the blood on the pillows raised further questions about whether the incident occurred in another part of the apartment before the body was found in the kitchen.

Source: Ellen Greenberg

I had not heard this before…

 

[snarast]

It’s amazing how your very succinct comment really highlights how absurd this ruling of suicide is.

And how archaic the comment is. Taken right out of the 19th century’s explanation for any female affliction.

Except I think they might have gotten this right - IN THE 1800s

 

[snarast]

Give the ruling, given the possibility she was truly alone, is it possible that her Rxs, intended to salve her anxiety, exacerbated it? Super human strength and the combo, fueled by Ambien, should be filed with the crazy effects some users/patients report?

Over time, warning labels found their homes on these medications, warning of preposterous behaviors and increased suicide risk.

Could it be that the mystery murderer in the sealed house is the medicine cabinet?

Could that cocktail of Rxs have pushed her anxiety over the banks and introduced suicidal/homicidial ideation where there had not been? Pretty sure that warning already exists, but for young adults who are prescribed them. She was older than a young adult but who's to say the meds (going on or off or somewhere in between) didn't do exactly that in this situation? A case if the treatment being more deadly than the disease.

I think the meds (again going on or off and while taking them) are responsible for her increasingly disordered thinking (that everything hinged on 1st grade grades) and therefore could provide the explanation for how a pleasant school teacher went from not uncommon anxiety to a frenzied attack. Biomechanically impossible, somehow upended by biochemical hulkdom.

Just Me and My Opinion, looking at this situation from the perspective of no foul play.

JMO

This is very thoughtful. I considered that at first but I have come to the conclusion that the two stabs - cerebellum halfway through her brain - and spine - cutting the dural sack and impacting the spinal column - are biomechanically indeed impossible.

It’s about the angle. It doesn’t matter if she did a twohanded over the head or bent over the sink to access better.

The only way for those two stabs to go in so far and leave such neat stab wounds is with deliberate precision.

On that note - the incisions’ appearances is another area of medical simulation. What marks does a quick frenzied stab with no visual guidance leave compared to a stab delivered by someone who can see where they are stabbing?

IMHOO

 

[RedRanger86]

Another question: I know there were no defensive marks on her hands, but shouldn’t she have some slippage/cuts on her hand if she stabbed herself 20 times? Even if “only” ~12 were penetrating, given the angles, depth, areas of infliction and knife being one of those plasticy/wood types, shouldn’t she have SOME wounds on her hands, especially if she did it herself?

 

[Aegon_the_Conqueror]

And how archaic the comment is. Taken right out of the 19th century’s explanation for any female affliction.

Except I think they might have gotten this right - IN THE 1800s

It's not an explanation unique to females; I haven't seen any evidence that it's even more commonly applied to them, only widespread assertions. You hear it all the time. "He shot himself. He's a depression case." How often is any homicide or suicide immediately blamed on psychiatric drugs?

 

[Aegon_the_Conqueror]

Question. If she mixed and/or took too much Klonopin and Ambien (voluntarily, accidentally, or drugged), would it have been possible that she was too weak to fight back? Ambien, a sleep aid; Klonopin, a muscle relaxer (among other things). Both are meds whose effects are felt shortly after each dosage and then wear off; they're not the type that build up in your system. (I haven't seen any toxicology reports that have would have stated her levels.)

 

[Serononin]

Question. If she mixed and/or took too much Klonopin and Ambien (voluntarily, accidentally, or drugged), would it have been possible that she was too weak to fight back? Ambien, a sleep aid; Klonopin, a muscle relaxer (among other things). Both are meds whose effects are felt shortly after each dosage and then wear off; they're not the type that build up in your system. (I haven't seen any toxicology reports that have would have stated her levels.)

I haven't seen anything with exact levels either, but IIRC the recent report said there were "sub-therapeutic levels" of Ambien and Klonopin found. My main question is that, since she had Xanax, Ambien and Klonopin in her home, why would she go through the horrible pain of stabbing herself instead of overdosing on her meds if she was truly suicidal?

 

[MrEmc]

This is very thoughtful. I considered that at first but I have come to the conclusion that the two stabs - cerebellum halfway through her brain - and spine - cutting the dural sack and impacting the spinal column - are biomechanically indeed impossible.

Perhaps I misunderstand, but the recently released report indicates the spinal injury may not have been self-inflicted:

"There are findings to suggest the defect in the spinal cord was an artifact created during the autopsy."

"Given the dimensions of the defect, a probe could reasonably have created the defect. A postmortem photograph showing a probe next to the spinal cord defect corroborates this opinion."

"Combining all the information on this stab wound, it is the opinion of the undersigned that this wound in isolation cannot exclude "Suicide" or "Homicide" as the manner of Ellen's death."

Pages 28-29: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

 

[arielilane]

Lawyers for the Greenbergs said they're asking state or federal law enforcement to launch its own investigation.

Requests for comment from the city law department were not returned.

Ellen Greenberg's case is closed in Philadelphia, but her parents will continue to fight for answers

Lawyers for Ellen Greenberg's family said they're asking state or federal law enforcement to launch its own investigation after the city of Philadelphia once again ruled it a suicide.

www.cbsnews.com

Oct. 14

 

[PrairieWind]

Lawyers for the Greenbergs said they're asking state or federal law enforcement to launch its own investigation.

Requests for comment from the city law department were not returned.

Ellen Greenberg's case is closed in Philadelphia, but her parents will continue to fight for answers

Lawyers for Ellen Greenberg's family said they're asking state or federal law enforcement to launch its own investigation after the city of Philadelphia once again ruled it a suicide.

www.cbsnews.com

Oct. 14

I feel for these people. But I don't know that the FBI has any jurisdiction to investigate her death. I don't know if the State can take over or not.

 

[snarast]

Perhaps I misunderstand, but the recently released report indicates the spinal injury may not have been self-inflicted:

"There are findings to suggest the defect in the spinal cord was an artifact created during the autopsy."

"Given the dimensions of the defect, a probe could reasonably have created the defect. A postmortem photograph showing a probe next to the spinal cord defect corroborates this opinion."

"Combining all the information on this stab wound, it is the opinion of the undersigned that this wound in isolation cannot exclude "Suicide" or "Homicide" as the manner of Ellen's death."

Pages 28-29: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

I’m pretty sure the tissue slide which showed a post mortem pattern would represent a small incision by accident if so. That stab is several centimetres deep. It would be a colossal error if his knife slipped that far. Or?

There are two backstabs that I consider biomechanically impossible.

The post mortem stab(s) are one thing. The angle of the knife that would have to be accomplished by Ellen contorting herself for the deep backstabs is something else.

Finally, an assessment of the entry sizes of the backstabs and how that correlates with different angles of entry should be further assessed. I’m convinced it would be impossible for the backstabs to be so ”neat” if you have to wave the knife around behind you without seeing what you’re doing. But I could be wrong.

IMHOO

 

[louvillian08]

Perhaps I misunderstand, but the recently released report indicates the spinal injury may not have been self-inflicted:

"There are findings to suggest the defect in the spinal cord was an artifact created during the autopsy."

"Given the dimensions of the defect, a probe could reasonably have created the defect. A postmortem photograph showing a probe next to the spinal cord defect corroborates this opinion."

"Combining all the information on this stab wound, it is the opinion of the undersigned that this wound in isolation cannot exclude "Suicide" or "Homicide" as the manner of Ellen's death."

Pages 28-29: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

Copying @arielilane comment from above!

"It includes false claims - like the assertion that a stab wound in Ellen's spinal column was made during autopsy, a theory rejected by every credible expert, including the City's own neuropathologist," he said.

"By ignoring key evidence that contradicts suicide—the extensive 3D photogrammetry, a recreation which proves Ellen could not self-inflict all of the wounds, unexplained bruises, missing surveillance footage, an intact lock, accounts of a toxic relationship, etc.," he went on to say. "Simon builds a flimsy case on distorted portrayals of Ellen's mental health, propped up by cynical distortions of Ellen's managed anxiety, a condition widely experienced daily by over 40 million Americans. Shame on you Simon."

Philadelphia Medical Examiner re-rules Ellen Greenberg’s 2011 death by 20 stab wounds a suicide

“With all of this information considered, it is the opinion of the undersigned that the manner of Ellen Greenberg’s death is best classified as ‘suicide.’”

thepostmillennial.com

Oct. 13