PA - Grand Jury Report, Sexual abuse of over 1,000 children by over 300 Catholic priests

[J. J. in Phila]

I think Galileo called the character based on the Pope "Simplico," so I'm familiar with the story. I do, however, want to illustrate how bureaucratic and slow moving the Catholic Church is in general. It almost 50 years to get the Church to respond to the Protestant Reformation.

Two things about the letter.

First, according to the author, Archbishop Viganò, the report dealt with adult seminarians, not children.

Second, several American bishops are calling for an investigation, including the cardinal that heads the National Council of Bishops.

 

[Elley Mae]

States consider investigations into Catholic Church abuse

States consider investigations into Catholic Church abuse

 

[Jax49]

Amid abuse scandal, 90% fewer Irish Catholics attend Pope Francis' Mass than Pope John Paul II's

In a sign of the Catholic Church's struggles with one of its most faithful followers, fewer than a quarter of an expected crowd of a half-million people attended Pope Francis' public Mass last week in Dublin.

The pope's Mass in Dublin’s Phoenix Park on Sunday drew 135,000 people, far short of the estimated 500,000 people forecast to attend, according to official estimates published by Irish Central, The Journal and other Irish news sites. During the last papal visit to Ireland – in 1979 – Pope John Paul II attracted more than 1 million for a public Mass. That's a drop-off rate of almost 90 percent.

 

[MaryG12]

Having been raised in the Roman Catholic church (and having left it in my teens), this has been going on for decades. I blame the environment of the church, since it is in fact set up for sexual predators; an environment where priests are not allowed to get married, must sacrifice any normalcy of life (goes back to St. Augustine), add to that a hierarchical structure where lay people have zero say and zero power over their own lives...you have the added complication of the Vatican (Roman Catholic church) being a foreign power here in the United States, which also means they fall outside of our jurisdiction, most of the time, especially when it comes to clergy sexually abusing laity.

Whereas in a Protestant/non-denominational Christian church it is the laity that holds the power, can in fact dismiss a pastor if found out to be a sexual predator, although this is rare, since most of these pastors are married or plan to get married, have children, families. They even hold regular day jobs - another thing forbidden to Roman Catholic priests, the exception being a teacher in a parochial school. That's it though.

It is a sad situation all around.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Having been raised in the Roman Catholic church (and having left it in my teens), this has been going on for decades. I blame the environment of the church, since it is in fact set up for sexual predators; an environment where priests are not allowed to get married, must sacrifice any normalcy of life (goes back to St. Augustine), add to that a hierarchical structure where lay people have zero say and zero power over their own lives...you have the added complication of the Vatican (Roman Catholic church) being a foreign power here in the United States, which also means they fall outside of our jurisdiction, most of the time, especially when it comes to clergy sexually abusing laity.

Whereas in a Protestant/non-denominational Christian church it is the laity that holds the power, can in fact dismiss a pastor if found out to be a sexual predator, although this is rare, since most of these pastors are married or plan to get married, have children, families. They even hold regular day jobs - another thing forbidden to Roman Catholic priests, the exception being a teacher in a parochial school. That's it though.

It is a sad situation all around.

Jerry Sandusky was Methodist and ostensibly married.

I am not Catholic; I am Episcopalian. I was raised by my father, who was a Presbyterian minister, and was for more than 30 years, before he became disabled. I am not here to defend the Catholic Church; I am not part of the Catholic Church.

There are many pedophiles that are married, or in a relationship with an adult, and that certainly have access to sexual release with adults. Celibacy is not a contributing factor to pedophilia. I think someone posted a link to pedophilia in other churches, but here is another example: https://www.courierpostonline.com/s...16/medford-pastor-harry-thomas-sexual-assault /345834002/ . I met Thomas once, briefly, and I'm sure that he not under a vow of celibacy.

As I pointed out previously, in several Protestant denominations, perhaps the largest being United Methodist Church, the laity has little or no role in assigning a pastor to a church; there is a person analogous to a bishop (sometimes called a bishop) that makes assignments of clergy to a local church.

There are, from what I can see, several major differences:

1. Local church finances are not controlled by the pastor or the higher clergy. They are controlled by the members of the parish, usually through their elected representatives.

2. The person analogous to the bishop is answerable locally for at least some things, e.g. finances. There is a reason to be respectful of the locals; they can tell you no, at least on some things.

A "bishop" in a Protestant Church may be a monarch, but he is a constitutional monarch. Even in the Episcopal Church, where a bishop is considered to be a successor the Apostles, as in the Catholic Church, his governance powers are not absolute.

 

[MaryG12]

Jerry Sandusky was Methodist and ostensibly married.

RSFF

Was Jerry Sandusky Methodist clergy?

I acknowledge that paedophiles will join certain professions (teaching, sports, etc) where there are usually children. Normal, healthy people do not seek out children in the way paedophiles do. Thank you for the info regarding the Methodist church, it is appreciated. I agree about celibacy not being a contributing factor to paedophilia, if it was, then non-religious celibates would be paedophiles too.

The way I see it, the celibacy factor in the Roman Catholic church allows the paedophile to "conceal" the lack of desire for a normal sexual life. And of course receive the ultimate protection from church hierarchy, since all he has to do is be relocated and carry out his nefarious acts towards children. Altar boys usually, that is how it starts, for as long as I can remember.

One of the priests at my family's church was suspected of being a paedophile, then left the church at some point during my 20's. I never heard the full story, but as standard practice goes, he was transferred to another church.

 

[Jennifer17]

Having been raised in the Roman Catholic church (and having left it in my teens), this has been going on for decades. I blame the environment of the church, since it is in fact set up for sexual predators; an environment where priests are not allowed to get married, must sacrifice any normalcy of life (goes back to St. Augustine), add to that a hierarchical structure where lay people have zero say and zero power over their own lives...you have the added complication of the Vatican (Roman Catholic church) being a foreign power here in the United States, which also means they fall outside of our jurisdiction, most of the time, especially when it comes to clergy sexually abusing laity.

Whereas in a Protestant/non-denominational Christian church it is the laity that holds the power, can in fact dismiss a pastor if found out to be a sexual predator, although this is rare, since most of these pastors are married or plan to get married, have children, families. They even hold regular day jobs - another thing forbidden to Roman Catholic priests, the exception being a teacher in a parochial school. That's it though.

It is a sad situation all around.

It is not rare at all in Protestant churches. And there are plenty of paedophiles who are married and have outside jobs.
Look at all the sexual abuse that went on in the Scouts movement and withing sporting teams.

 

[MaryG12]

It is not rare at all in Protestant churches. And there are plenty of paedophiles who are married and have outside jobs.
Look at all the sexual abuse that went on in the Scouts movement and withing sporting teams.

I was not aware that Protestant clergy had a paedophile problem on a par with the Roman Catholic church.

That's something I'd have to do further research on though.

I was referring primarily to clergy and paedophilia in my original post.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

RSFF


The way I see it, the celibacy factor in the Roman Catholic church allows the paedophile to "conceal" the lack of desire for a normal sexual life. And of course receive the ultimate protection from church hierarchy, since all he has to do is be relocated and carry out his nefarious acts towards children. Altar boys usually, that is how it starts, for as long as I can remember.

On the "concealment" point, I agree, at least previously. It was unusual for a male to reach 30 and not be married; a priest would obviously not be married at 30. I think that has changed today, but
it was the case in went a number of these people entered the clergy.

 

[MaryG12]

No words...

Priests arrested after allegedly performing sex act near Miami Beach

These two Catholic priests should be kicked all the way back to Chicago where they came from. Please stay out of Florida, we don't want them here.

 

[Cryptic]

I was not aware that Protestant clergy had a paedophile problem on a par with the Roman Catholic church.

They do and they don't. I don't think celibacy contributes towards pedophilia. That aside, the larger number of sex criminals amongst the Catholic clergy can be attributed to two sources:

- A severe shortage of priests in the 1970s and 1980s that led to the acceptance and retention of a certain number of obviously "problem" candidates.
- The ability of Catholic Bishops to transfer clergy around with out any oversight. This allows an abuser to abuse again, and again.

Evangelical Protestants never had a clergy shortage. So, there was far less need to take risks with problem individuals. Instead, such people were simply not hired (providing they can be identified).

Each Evangelical protestant church is also independent. So, offenders can’t be transferred and are far more likely to be fired by the local church board. This does not mean that the police were notified, that the congregation was fully informed as to why Pastor “X” suddenly “resigned” (cough, cough) etc. But it does mean that Pastor “X” was terminated. Terminated pastors are less likely to find ministerial work again and are less likely to abuse as a minister again.

Also there is a subtle theological difference…..

A Catholic priest is seen as being a “priest forever in the order of Melchizadeck” once ordained. In return for a lifelong commitment to the Church, he gets life long support. Thus, defrocking is a long, difficult process. Evangelicals are more of the “priesthood of all believers”. Returning somebody to the lay state (firing) is not a big deal and there is less of a long term support commitment. Thus, less pressure to give second and third chances.

 

[lonetraveler]

Respectfully snipped:


In this, there are some extenuating circumstances for the bishop's action.

1. While not removed from the priesthood, he had been suspended, i.e. unable to serve as a priest, for 20 years; the suspension occurred well before Gainer became bishop. The priest was not in a position to threaten children during that time.

2. The suspended priest was 88 years old and in poor health. It was fairly evident that he was not going to be around too much longer. He did, in fact, die in 2016, I think.

I am not certain of the length of time needed for the formal process, which includes a church trial, but it may take several years. It would even be possible that the priest may not competent to stand trial in a criminal court at that point.

Unlike most of the actions described in the presentment, I can at least understand this one.

I've been so involved with missing children lately that this is the first day that I have read on this thread. I haven't read but a few pages of the documentation. That said, in reply to this post I must say that the pedophiles involved with these atrocious crimes should be treated the very same as Nazi criminals, they are never too old to be prosecuted, imo.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I've been so involved with missing children lately that this is the first day that I have read on this thread. I haven't read but a few pages of the documentation. That said, in reply to this post I must say that the pedophiles involved with these atrocious crimes should be treated the very same as Nazi criminals, they are never too old to be prosecuted, imo.

Even some of those could not stand trial due to health considerations.

The first thing, in my opinion, is to eliminate the threat. When the new bishop came, that one priest was isolated from children.

The guy was 88 years old was in poor health. It takes several years to remove him from the actual priesthood. There is a very high chance he would live long enough to be removed, which is what happened.

 

[lonetraveler]

Even some of those could not stand trial due to health considerations.

The first thing, in my opinion, is to eliminate the threat. When the new bishop came, that one priest was isolated from children.

The guy was 88 years old was in poor health. It takes several years to remove him from the actual priesthood. There is a very high chance he would live long enough to be removed, which is what happened.

That just isn't acceptable IMO.

 

[Cryptic]

As a side note, there seems to be s another twist to Catholic administrative practices that can facilitate abuse....

Until recently, Catholicism seems to have viewed priesthood status as "on" or "off". Either one is a priest, or one is not. There was no suspension of problem, though not criminal (yet) individuals. Rather, one had to be defrocked and that took years.

For example a Presbyterian minister became a non criminal problem when he committed adultery multiple times via a fake on line dating profile- then also semi propositioned a woman employed at the church for a sex act (Pastor said he was only kidding).

The Presbyterian solution was to suspend him for seven years. During this time, he cannot work for the Presbyterian church in any capacity. After seven years, he could re-apply to have his minister credentials re-instated. The Presbyterians added that few suspended ministers bothered to re-apply after seven years. Thus, they often divested themselves of the risk of having an unrepentant problem person go criminal.

Meanwhile, as suspension was not a historical Catholic concept, a non criminal problem priest not only remained a priest, but also remained actively a priest unless defrocked. Thus, the Catholic church kept the risk of a non criminal problem going criminal in the future. Which a certain number did.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

Meanwhile, as suspension was not a historical Catholic concept, a non criminal problem priest not only remained a priest, but also remained actively a priest unless defrocked. Thus, the Catholic church kept the risk of a non criminal problem going criminal in the future. Which a certain number did.

A bishop can prevent him from functioning as a priest, but he could not change his status from being a priest to being a lay person, or "laicized" him, without due process within the Church.

In the Harrisburg Diocese, here is the chronology:

1988: Beeman, a priest, is suspended, but the laicized process is not started.

1995: Pease, a priest, is reported to the diocese, as committing sexual abuse of a minor.

2002: Pease, is permitted to retire, but the laicized process is not started.

2014: Gainer becomes bishop. At that point, Beeman is on his death bed, with a fatal illness (he will die within two years). Pease is apparently mentally incompetent and could not stand trial, either within the Church or in a criminal or civil court.

I don't blame Gainer for saying, in regard to Beeman, **By the time we go through this process, he'll be dead.** I will blame the bishops that didn't handle the cases at the time.

 

[Cryptic]

although this is rare, since most of these pastors are married or plan to get married, have children, families. They even hold regular day jobs -

Having worked with sex offenders in the past, this is a misconception.

Nearly all of my "charges" held regular jobs. Then ones that did not were chronic welfare manipulators. Likewise, essentially all were either married- including a good number with families or dating (which for them, nearly always meant "sexually active").

Yet.... all the people in question were sex criminals. In short, from my experience at least, being married, having a family, or having a regular job had nothing what so ever to do with whether or not an individual is a sex criminal.

Rather, the bunch came from all walks of life (including one or two in protestant ministerial type positions. I lived in an evangelical area at the time), had varied incomes, varied education levels and varying degrees of inherent intelligence ranging from highly intelligent to dim witted. They also had widely varying degrees of charm appeal. Some were obviously "creepy". Others were very charming and otherwise likable.

 

[Cryptic]

^ And just to clarify, all of my former charges had committed sex crimes against minors, not adults.

 

[MaryG12]

Having worked with sex offenders in the past, this is a misconception.

Nearly all of my "charges" held regular jobs. Then ones that did not were chronic welfare manipulators. Likewise, essentially all were either married- including a good number with families or dating (which for them, nearly always meant "sexually active").

Yet.... all the people in question were sex criminals. In short, from my experience at least, being married, having a family, or having a regular job had nothing what so ever to do with whether or not an individual is a sex criminal.

Rather, the bunch came from all walks of life (including one or two in protestant ministerial type positions. I lived in an evangelical area at the time), had varied incomes, varied education levels and varying degrees of inherent intelligence ranging from highly intelligent to dim witted. They also had widely varying degrees of charm appeal. Some were obviously "creepy". Others were very charming and otherwise likable.

You lost me.

I've always understood that most Protestant pastors hold day jobs. Not sure why any would be welfare manipulators but I could of course be wrong. My guess is they are in the minority.

 

[blue22]

Having been raised in the Roman Catholic church (and having left it in my teens), this has been going on for decades. I blame the environment of the church, since it is in fact set up for sexual predators; an environment where priests are not allowed to get married, must sacrifice any normalcy of life (goes back to St. Augustine), add to that a hierarchical structure where lay people have zero say and zero power over their own lives...you have the added complication of the Vatican (Roman Catholic church) being a foreign power here in the United States, which also means they fall outside of our jurisdiction, most of the time, especially when it comes to clergy sexually abusing laity.

Whereas in a Protestant/non-denominational Christian church it is the laity that holds the power, can in fact dismiss a pastor if found out to be a sexual predator, although this is rare, since most of these pastors are married or plan to get married, have children, families. They even hold regular day jobs - another thing forbidden to Roman Catholic priests, the exception being a teacher in a parochial school. That's it though.

It is a sad situation all around.

In my past, pre-family life, I worked for the county advocacy center as a forensic interviewer. It's actually a harmful position to hold, that men who have families and jobs are "rare" abusers. I can tell you that the MAJORITY of our offenders were family men with jobs. (I won't mention juvenile offenders, since it's not relevant to this. We also did have some female offenders, but they were only a few.) We had plenty of pastors with families. One of my weirdest revelations was learning that one of the children I interviewed was abused by an elder at my church family of 6 years. He had plenty of support from the church. I left.