PA - Kenzie Houk, 26, pregnant, murdered, Wampum, 20 Feb 2009

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

"He actually told my son that he wanted to do that to her," said Houk's brother-in-law, Jason Kraner. "There was an issue with jealousy." (That statement right there should have been dealt with.)

Defense attorney Dennis Elisco said he plans to ask Monday for the boy to be released on bail and for the case to moved to juvenile court. Elisco and police said they had no clear motive for the shooting.

The boy's father, Christopher Brown, is "a mess" and had no indication his son had a problem with Houk, Elisco said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090222/ap_on_re_us/pregnant_woman_killed

SEVERAL family members have said in various reports that the boy was having a hard time with everything & was jealous. The father was one that said it too.
I didnt look...but it seems to me that this article is older than alot of the others.

And I agree, had SOMEBODY included this little boy in blending this family and got him counceling, this probably would of never happened.

And as far as I have read, they were NOT married. They were living together since meeting in May of last year ! They hadnt even been together for a year !.

This little boy needs HELP , not bannished to a cell for years & years. Heck, even the jail people have said that. They cant even find any clothes for the little boy to wear in jail ! The little boy cant even take a shower or go outside UNLESS the whole place is on LOCKDOWN so the adults cant get to him.

I feel aweful for this unborn child & woman....but sheesh, people need to wake up and pay attn. too ALL of their children.

jmo

 

[Trino]

I'm having difficulty figuring out at what age a youthful murderer should be tried as an adult. PA says 10, and this boy is 11. How close to 12 is he? Will he, for sure, be charged as an adult? It seems he planned the murder, hid the weapon, much like what is said about the AZ boy, and much like an adult might do.

What about the 10 yr old Kansas boy? Was he nearly 11? The AZ boy was nearly 9.

What's the right age for accountability?

Among these three boys there are five victims, including an unborn baby boy due to be born in a few weeks. If youthful murderers get no detention time, will other youthful murderers not be concerned about doing something similar?

Well, maybe I just answered my own question.

http://www.wacotrib.com/hp/content/shared-gen/ap/National/Pregnant_Woman_Killed.html

The Lawrence County District Attorney says Pennsylvania law doesn't permit him to file a criminal homicide charge against this boy in juvenile court. It also appears bail may not be possible.

 

[ziggy]

SEVERAL family members have said in various reports that the boy was having a hard time with everything & was jealous. The father was one that said it too.
I didnt look...but it seems to me that this article is older than alot of the others.

And I agree, had SOMEBODY included this little boy in blending this family and got him counceling, this probably would of never happened.

And as far as I have read, they were NOT married. They were living together since meeting in May of last year ! They hadnt even been together for a year !.

This little boy needs HELP , not bannished to a cell for years & years. Heck, even the jail people have said that. They cant even find any clothes for the little boy to wear in jail ! The little boy cant even take a shower or go outside UNLESS the whole place is on LOCKDOWN so the adults cant get to him.

I feel aweful for this unborn child & woman....but sheesh, people need to wake up and pay attn. too ALL of their children.

jmo

Well thanks for bringing this up. As I was reading through this thread, it struck me how people focus on the gun, or the violence that kids are exposed to these days but what about...
THE MESSY LIVES THEIR PARENTS PUT THEM THROUGH?

You know, in the day of blended families, it's rare that ANY kid feels like they are number one when Mom or Dad starts diddling someone new.

I feel like the counseling should come BEFORE the new relationship. Problem: counseling costs big bucks people, I know - mr. zig's divorce was a huge pain and very expensive and he was completely ruined and had a hard time paying for the kid's counseling but they did get some. And, it didn't help much because it takes a long time, especially for boys to open up to someone.

Anyway - really - could we just stand back and feel sorry for what kids have to through these days? Geesh!

I don't think such a child should have had access to a gun - no against guns at all even for kids - but not troubled kids.

The "father" was not sensitive to this kid at all and I feel that parents MUST think about their kids before themselves.

P.S. Mr. Zig and I have been together three years. We lived together until we realized it was messing up the kids and now that we live apart, things are much better. He puts the kids first. He should.

 

[Annie]

SEVERAL family members have said in various reports that the boy was having a hard time with everything & was jealous. The father was one that said it too.
I didnt look...but it seems to me that this article is older than alot of the others.

And I agree, had SOMEBODY included this little boy in blending this family and got him counceling, this probably would of never happened.

And as far as I have read, they were NOT married. They were living together since meeting in May of last year ! They hadnt even been together for a year !.

This little boy needs HELP , not bannished to a cell for years & years. Heck, even the jail people have said that. They cant even find any clothes for the little boy to wear in jail ! The little boy cant even take a shower or go outside UNLESS the whole place is on LOCKDOWN so the adults cant get to him.

I feel aweful for this unborn child & woman....but sheesh, people need to wake up and pay attn. too ALL of their children.

jmo

This little boy needs help and I hope he gets it, but in my opinion it should be while he is locked up away from society so he can't hurt someone else. If children are commiting murders and don't need to be locked up with adults, then why aren't we building prisons for young murderers? This boy has crossed a line and shouldn't be with other innocent children he could hurt. One time is enough to kill someone.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

I'm having difficulty figuring out at what age a youthful murderer should be tried as an adult. PA says 10, and this boy is 11. How close to 12 is he? Will he, for sure, be charged as an adult? It seems he planned the murder, hid the weapon, much like what is said about the AZ boy, and much like an adult might do.

What about the 10 yr old Kansas boy? Was he nearly 11? The AZ boy was nearly 9.

What's the right age for accountability?

Among these three boys there are five victims, including an unborn baby boy due to be born in a few weeks. If youthful murderers get no detention time, will other youthful murderers not be concerned about doing something similar?

Well, maybe I just answered my own question.

http://www.wacotrib.com/hp/content/shared-gen/ap/National/Pregnant_Woman_Killed.html

The Lawrence County District Attorney says Pennsylvania law doesn't permit him to file a criminal homicide charge against this boy in juvenile court. It also appears bail may not be possible.

The way I understood all of the reports, its up to the DA & the court..

He's already been charged as an adult so he would have to go through the adult trial/system.
The case CAN be moved to the juvenile courts but would still be charged as an adult but the sentence could be different.
This report is alittle confusing. I have seen other reports that explain it better but I dont recall what sites the info was on.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,498384,00.html

Brown is charged as an adult because Pennsylvania law allows prosecutors to charge children as young as 10 with criminal homicide.

For now, the boy faces a preliminary hearing on Thursday to determine if he'll stand trial. If a judge agrees the case might belong in juvenile court, a dual-purpose hearing will determine if there's evidence to support the charges, but Elisco will also have to prove the boy can be rehabilitated through a juvenile system that only has jurisdiction until the boy turns 21.




I would still like to know who was taking care of the 2 girls -----

http://www.ldnews.com/ci_11755724?source=most_viewed

Police were not called until about 9 a.m. because Houk's 4-year-old daughter said she first watched cartoons and ate breakfast before going into her mother's room and finding her dead, Bongivengo said.

 

[Trino]

The way I understood all of the reports, its up to the DA & the court..

He's already been charged as an adult so he would have to go through the adult trial/system.
The case CAN be moved to the juvenile courts but would still be charged as an adult but the sentence could be different.
This report is alittle confusing. I have seen other reports that explain it better but I dont recall what sites the info was on.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,498384,00.html

Brown is charged as an adult because Pennsylvania law allows prosecutors to charge children as young as 10 with criminal homicide.

For now, the boy faces a preliminary hearing on Thursday to determine if he'll stand trial. If a judge agrees the case might belong in juvenile court, a dual-purpose hearing will determine if there's evidence to support the charges, but Elisco will also have to prove the boy can be rehabilitated through a juvenile system that only has jurisdiction until the boy turns 21.

I would still like to know who was taking care of the 2 girls -----

http://www.ldnews.com/ci_11755724?source=most_viewed

Police were not called until about 9 a.m. because Houk's 4-year-old daughter said she first watched cartoons and ate breakfast before going into her mother's room and finding her dead, Bongivengo said.

One of the girls went to school. The mother had her alarm set but died before it went off. Maybe this means she worked and had a plan for the 4 yr old.

 

[SuziQ]

I agree there are tough unanswered questions. Have you read the recent Humboldt, Kansas story of another boy - age 10 - who murdered his dad? What is society to do with these kids?

Story posted by Linda7NJ (8 yr old charged...)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,154878,00.html

I admit I haven't gotten deep into the topic of kids who kill. But what are the stats? Are they abused or have a similar problem or are they merely sociopathic?

 

[wildTrose]

With this happening more and more...I think a special jail needs to be built for these kids...not your normal juvenile detention center...not prison....but a facility that is for kids under 14? that have commited serious crimes...(what better way of studying these kids to find out what makes them tick or snap then having them all in one or two places)
These kids would recieve ongoing therapy and be evaluated periodically to see where they are emotionally and mentally in hopes that they maybe able to be released without the fear of this happening again....some kids would not be able to be released and those should graduate to juvie, then on to adult prison if there is no chance of them ever being able to live amongst society.
I truly believe not all of these kids are bad kids...I think most do not realize what they have done due to their age.....I think they may have known what they did but not the long term effect of it.....
I truly believe a large percentage of these child killers can be rehabilitated..there will of course be those who cannot

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

Well thanks for bringing this up. As I was reading through this thread, it struck me how people focus on the gun, or the violence that kids are exposed to these days but what about...
THE MESSY LIVES THEIR PARENTS PUT THEM THROUGH?

You know, in the day of blended families, it's rare that ANY kid feels like they are number one when Mom or Dad starts diddling someone new.

I feel like the counseling should come BEFORE the new relationship. Problem: counseling costs big bucks people, I know - mr. zig's divorce was a huge pain and very expensive and he was completely ruined and had a hard time paying for the kid's counseling but they did get some. And, it didn't help much because it takes a long time, especially for boys to open up to someone.

Anyway - really - could we just stand back and feel sorry for what kids have to through these days? Geesh!

I don't think such a child should have had access to a gun - no against guns at all even for kids - but not troubled kids.

The "father" was not sensitive to this kid at all and I feel that parents MUST think about their kids before themselves.

P.S. Mr. Zig and I have been together three years. We lived together until we realized it was messing up the kids and now that we live apart, things are much better. He puts the kids first. He should.

Agree on pretty much everything you said.

But counseling doesnt have to cost anything, unless someone just wants to go that route. I also believe "inclusion" is a MUST for kids when a new baby is coming .
When me & my husband started dating, I didnt meet his girls for a long time. I even talked to his mother about how long to wait, etc.
Once I did meet them, every other weekend IF me & hubby wanted to do something , his daughters were asked FIRST ... and if they didnt want to do something with me tagging along, so be it. Both of us put those little girls first. They were 7 & 4 at that time.

Both girls were in our wedding. It was only family & 2 friends there. They were included in the ceremony. They stood with their daddy and I married ALL 3 OF THEM.

A few years later, we talked about starting a family ... all 4 of us talked about it. I got pregnant and the girls went to appt's & sono's with us, free. They went to Sibling classes at the hospital, again, free. their schools knew so if something seemed "off" at school, we would know - they had "girl talks with the guidance counselers, again, free... Their church also had things about/for step-familys & new siblings, yep...again, it was free, etc....me & hubby took blended classes at the hospital too (free also). And lots of library books we checked out with them.

MY* girls are now 23 & 20 and they adore their little brother (13 now) & little sister (8 now).
You are absolutely right. The counseling should start before so the children KNOW that they are thought of first.

The resourses are out there. Parents just need to think about their kids instead of themselves , especially when it comes to lifechanging issues like this.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

One of the girls went to school. The mother had her alarm set but died before it went off. Maybe this means she worked and had a plan for the 4 yr old.

I wonder what time it was set for ? Looks to me like the mother wasnt up with the kids when the kids were getting ready for school - also looks like the 4 yr old was up when the other 2 children were getting ready to go to school. Nobody heard the alarm ?
Who made their breakfast ? especially the 4 yr olds breakfast ?
What time did dad leave ?

 

[southcitymom]

I'm having difficulty figuring out at what age a youthful murderer should be tried as an adult. .......

It's a good question and all the states struggle to find the answer. Even if children CAN be tried as adults, many times they are shown leniency based on their age and the circumstances surrounding the crime committed.

I personally hate the idea of anyone under the age of 18 being tried as an adult. MOO.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

This is so horrific. I will not get into the gun debate being a gun owner myself..

One thing I do agree with is charging this child as an adult.
I really hate that our world has come to this, but I do feel that as long as we teach our children they will suffer the consequences of their actions just like the adults do, maybe they will rethink their actions.

Sad...just so terribly sad..

I dont see any way to show young children " the consequences of their actions just like the adults do " unless, we go ahead and lock up young children for a year or whatever instead of going to Kindergarden.

It would be so much easier, cheaper and LOVING ones kids if the adults in their lives were more involved with their kiddos lives throughout their whole life.


jmo

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

I think he looked grossly over weight, that would be "obese" wouldn it?

Fluffy is a kinder word.....:chicken:

Fluffy is NOT a kind word no matter how it is used. Would you call a child fluffy to their face ? If not, then why say it here.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I wonder what time it was set for ? Looks to me like the mother wasn't up with the kids when the kids were getting ready for school - also looks like the 4 yr old was up when the other 2 children were getting ready to go to school. Nobody heard the alarm ?
Who made their breakfast ? especially the 4 yr olds breakfast ?
What time did dad leave ?

I suspect that the mother never had a chance to get up and do her daily duties. I think she was already laying in bed with a shotgun blast to her head.

The 4 year old probably woke up when the shotgun went off inside the home and may have hidden, if she saw her soon to be brother, with the shotgun. After he and the 7 year old left for school she probably went to her mommy and saw her. Then ran crying to tell someone.

imoo

 

[southcitymom]

Fluffy is NOT a kind word no matter how it is used. Would you call a child fluffy to their face ? If not, then why say it here.

I think of fluffy as chubby. Chubby is not obese. If you have a child with a weight problem, what you call it is probably the least of your worries (though how you say it to the child is, of course, very important).

The face of this child looked a little chubby, I think.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't see any way to show young children " the consequences of their actions just like the adults do " unless, we go ahead and lock up young children for a year or whatever instead of going to Kindergarden.

It would be so much easier, cheaper and LOVING ones kids if the adults in their lives were more involved with their kiddos lives throughout their whole life.


jmo

How do we know these people weren't involved with the children, including the boy? I have read in articles that the ,soon to be step mother, had tried very hard to show this boy special attention and include him.

Well these type of children who premeditate murders aren't cases that are meant for the juvenile system and they are too young for the adult justice system imo. So the lawmakers have got to get a handle on such cases and find a place in the justice system to handle these type of cases.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I hardly ever watch Dr. Phil, so I don't know what ever happened with this family. But they've always stuck in my mind. The kid was around 10 or 11 years old. IIRC, he never showed remorse or anything. In his mind the end justified the means. IMO, Dad had his own issues. Of course it was easy from where he sat. He wasn't the target. Dad had a worrisome lack of concern for his wife and her kids. I wanted to scream at his wife to kick her husband and his son to the curb and never look back.

The scary thing is I have watched several prison interviews with kids who killed their parents or someone close to them in their own homes.

None of them showed remorse or regret. They talk in a monotone expressionless voice as if the subject is boring to them. They tell the interviewer they never think about the loved one they brutally murdered.

It scares me to death to even watch them.

imoo

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm having difficulty figuring out at what age a youthful murderer should be tried as an adult. PA says 10, and this boy is 11. How close to 12 is he? Will he, for sure, be charged as an adult? It seems he planned the murder, hid the weapon, much like what is said about the AZ boy, and much like an adult might do.

What about the 10 yr old Kansas boy? Was he nearly 11? The AZ boy was nearly 9.

What's the right age for accountability?

Among these three boys there are five victims, including an unborn baby boy due to be born in a few weeks. If youthful murderers get no detention time, will other youthful murderers not be concerned about doing something similar?

Well, maybe I just answered my own question.

http://www.wacotrib.com/hp/content/shared-gen/ap/National/Pregnant_Woman_Killed.html

The Lawrence County District Attorney says Pennsylvania law doesn't permit him to file a criminal homicide charge against this boy in juvenile court. It also appears bail may not be possible.

If a child that premeditated murders and made considerable effort to conceal his guilt doesn't spend any time in detention of some kind....isn't a little crazy to lock up a kid that just steals a car for a joy ride? Or any one of the countless other things children are held in detention for?

Should there be no juvenile detention at all? Just a little therapy and maybe the kid will lose his desert for a week?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Fluffy is NOT a kind word no matter how it is used. Would you call a child fluffy to their face ? If not, then why say it here.

I would prefer "fluffy" to fat any day of the week. I'm a tad on the "fluffy" side myself.:crazy:

My kid wouldn't BE fat/obese/fluffy in the first place.

 

[passionflower]

http://insidebutlercounty.com/index...rden-wants-child-murder-suspect-out-of-prison

link from local radio news