PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

[KatherineQ]

back in my day (the 1980's- lol) the big thing was to lock up teenage girls in mental hospitals if they were seeing a guy their parents didn't want them to see. now,, i have to say... i kind of see why they do this (esp. in this particular case!)

Well that's the truth. I had a friend in high school who was physically locked in her room at night and the windows were barred shut. She was driven to school in the morning and picked up after school. If she became absent during the day the school had to call her parents immediately. Not a mental hospital, but I remember thinking her parents were NUTS and abusive. I also knew she had had relationships with much older boys, and had become pregnant at least once.

What's a family to do? The families of the boys are certainly responsible too, but if you have a daughter who won't quit this delinquent behavior, you have to do what you can to put her on the right track.

I think Kara's parents were blindsided and although they knew for months she had an inappropriate relationship, they never knew what it would lead to.

 

[netsleuth]

I don't think you can be charged with a crime when a 'victim" sends pictures of herself to you.

It doesn't matter if she sent them or not (he probably solicited them anyway); possession of the illicit material is a crime. Even if it was unsolicited, he did not have to keep it.

18 Pa.C.S. §. 6312

§ 6312. Sexual abuse of children.

(a) Definition.--As used in this section, "prohibited sexual act" means sexual intercourse as defined in section 3101 (relating to definitions), masturbation, sadism, masochism, bestiality, fellatio, cunnilingus, lewd exhibition of the genitals or nudity if such nudity is depicted for the purpose of sexual stimulation or gratification of any person who might view such depiction.



(d) Possession of child .--Any person who knowingly possesses or controls any book, magazine, pamphlet, slide, photograph, film, videotape, computer depiction or other material depicting a child under the age of 18 years engaging in a prohibited sexual act or in the simulation of such act is guilty of a felony of the third degree.

 

[mysteriew]

My 14 year old has "girlfriends". If offered gently, it is possible he would attempt sex. His dream in life is the grow up, get married, have a truck, a 4 wheeler, and a motorcycle and several dogs. If pressed, he will tell you he wants to be a pilot or a fireman or a policeman.
And if an 18 year old female were to talk him into sex at this age- I will be screaming rape! I don't care what he wants! He is too young for a relationship with an 18 year old- and any 18 yo should be adult enough to know that! I felt the same way with my daughter at that age, though she was too shy for a "boyfriend", LOL.

 

[newtv]

My 14 year old has "girlfriends". If offered gently, it is possible he would attempt sex. His dream in life is the grow up, get married, have a truck, a 4 wheeler, and a motorcycle and several dogs. If pressed, he will tell you he wants to be a pilot or a fireman or a policeman.
And if an 18 year old female were to talk him into sex at this age- I will be screaming rape! I don't care what he wants! He is too young for a relationship with an 18 year old- and any 18 yo should be adult enough to know that! I felt the same way with my daughter at that age, though she was too shy for a "boyfriend", LOL.

exactly-and i can tell u- 14 year olds are supposed ot be self centered-thats why its so hard to tell if a teen is mentally ill or not- because they can be all over the place and its normal.
We do very little diagnosis of children until they are young adults because being a teen is being self centered-not sure why that is even part of the description as if its unusual-just let her be.
She is her age and I can only say that she is no different than all normal kids.
If u have a really well behaved teen be worried-teens are not supposed ot care about anything but themselves even tho they dont see that they are trapped in their own mirror. It is a stage-(I am referring to her not him).

Show me a teen who is described as a model child and I will show u scott peterson and scott D..no way on gods earth can anyone say this girl is self centered in some unusual-over-the-top, unique way.


and while this will change the lives of those around her and her..u wont see the blogs stop going up or girls stop chasing boys older than them because they fear it will happen to them.

Its life-we grow out of those places and look back in horror-joy and gratitude if we survive them without incident.

 

[docwho3]

This case is sad and troubling.
Hearing the "kids will be kids" speech so often may be why my hair is almost gone on the top of my head. . . .makes me want to pull my hair out.
Yes, kids are kids but that's one reason we are supposed to have parents that actually take note of the children. This is not in any way a case of "kids will be kids". This is more a case of Parenting run amok . . .like the emperor's new clothes, in some ways in this case it(parenting) seems to not have existed.

A boy grows up in a home with 54 guns that are not kept locked up out of his reach? He already has had one episode of trouble involving another family and his parents took no notice? (If they had would the guns have been left around for him to get?) No one even googled their kids names to see if they had blogs and if so what was on them? No one said to the kids "Let me see your comps awhile" and then looked them over to see what was on them? If they had paid attention to the comps even a couple times a month this might have been avoided.

"Kids will be kids" probably covers when your son brings a frog in a box into his bedroom as a pet so it can sleep with him . . . or maybe it covers the time your daughter has a few friends come to a sleep over and their shrieking & giggling keeps you up all night . . .but in my mind it does not excuse them getting unsupervised access to 54 guns or being able to play on the internet without ever having anyone check up on them.

You can't put teens in a straight jacket but you also can't just throw up your hands as a parent & allow them that many guns or allow unsupervised access to same. I think charges should be brought when parents are that negligent & the kid commits a crime. Parents ought to share the same penalty as the kid if the parents were negligent.

Note to parents (and yes I am a parent):Just because your child acts like he/she is really into being a Christian does not mean you don't need to watch them. For some troubled teens acting religious becomes a sort of disguise.

 

[newtv]

doc who-
well said and I agree-age appropriate behaviour should always be expected and inappropriate behaviour even if a phase needs to be contained.

Carol O'Conner who's son killed himself on drugs coined the phrase..Get between your kids and drugs anyway u can.
I say the same for Guns..get between your kids and guns anyway u can.
It's just that not everyone believes it the way we believe it when talking about drugs.

Parents (fit ones), dont leave cocaine and hash and weed and crack etc all over the house..but guns well that seems to be a different thing.

 

[mysteriew]

Kids will be kids and it is the normal teen behavior for teens to run some "scams" on the parents. Those scams can range from not telling parents everything, to lying or operating diversion websites. When I looked at myspace.com for instance I saw nothing alarming. Nothing in the websites or in the posts. However, xanga was different. I suspect that myspace was the diversion site for the parents benefit. Parents think the kids are being honest by talking about their site, and parents checking it. Reality however was that the main action was taking place on xanga. Again that is not unusual teen behavior.
I agree that 54 guns being kept in reach of an 18 year old was a problem. The parents probably thought that teaching their son gun safety and proper handling of the guns was enoiugh. However, keeping them to where he could just walk out the door with them is a major problem. And probably something that Kara's parents were not aware of. I wonder if they knew about the other teen David ran off with?
BTW, for the parents out there. Wikki's are supposed to be the up and coming means of communication now. I suppect that teens have probably already started with them.

 

[mic730]

It doesn't matter if she sent them or not (he probably solicited them anyway); possession of the illicit material is a crime. Even if it was unsolicited, he did not have to keep it.

18 Pa.C.S. §. 6312

§ 6312. Sexual abuse of children.

(a) Definition.--As used in this section, "prohibited sexual act" means sexual intercourse as defined in section 3101 (relating to definitions), masturbation, sadism, masochism, bestiality, fellatio, cunnilingus, lewd exhibition of the genitals or nudity if such nudity is depicted for the purpose of sexual stimulation or gratification of any person who might view such depiction.



(d) Possession of child .--Any person who knowingly possesses or controls any book, magazine, pamphlet, slide, photograph, film, videotape, computer depiction or other material depicting a child under the age of 18 years engaging in a prohibited sexual act or in the simulation of such act is guilty of a felony of the third degree.

Something like that happened here in Roanoke. 2 teen girls took nude pictures of themselves and the boys that recevied them were charged with possession of child .

 

[concernedperson]

It looks like young Ludwig was a bit of a manipulator and used his faith to coerce young women.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/1105/2101_david_ludwig_portrait.html

 

[Dark Knight]

A 14-year-old girl whose 18-year-old boyfriend allegedly shot to death her parents left with him willingly after the slayings and was not kidnapped, prosecutors said in court papers filed Monday.

Kara Borden went with him of her own free will, she told detectives, according to the filing.

David Ludwig told detectives the two planned to get married and start a new life.

He confessed to the slayings after his arrest and told police where to find the murder weapon in his car, according to court documents released Monday in Indiana.

In the court documents filed in Lancaster, prosecutors said Kara Borden ran from her home to get into Ludwig's car after the Nov. 13 shootings of her parents.

"(Kara) told the defendant that she wanted to stay with him, and they drove west with the intent to 'get as far away as possible, get married, and start a new life,'" Ludwig told detectives, according to the court papers.

Lancaster County District Attorney Donald Totaro said Monday the kidnapping charge against Ludwig, of Lititz, will be dropped at his preliminary hearing next month.

DK comment: The sick thing is she went to their funeral and did the whole "mourning" routine. I had a hunch she wasn't kidnapped, that just didn't make sense.

 

[KatherineQ]

Man. I really feel sorry for the girl in Hawaii, who seems like a truly deep, thoughtful and sweet girl. And very sincere. And here now her most intimate emails are right out there in public. Sheesh.

 

[scandi]

Thanks Dark Knight,

So does this really amount to the loss of a special circumstance on his murder charge? Do you think she will be charged as an accessory to the murder?


Scandi

 

[KatherineQ]

That's sure how it looked to me. She is frighteningly hollow.

 

[concernedperson]

Before anyone skewers her read this.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/1105/2101_david_ludwig_portrait.html

 

[mysteriew]

An 18-year-old man accused of killing his 14-year-old girlfriend's parents and taking the girl to Indiana confessed to the slayings after his arrest and told police the murder weapon was in his car, according to court documents released Monday.

David Ludwig told Indiana State Police that a Glock semiautomatic pistol he used to kill Michael and Cathryn Borden was under the driver's front seat of his parents' car, which he used to flee the scene with Kara Borden, according to a search warrant affidavit for the car.
http://wilmingtonstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051121/APA/511210907

 

[Olivia77]

Prosecutors are saying Kara Beth Borden was not kidnapped.

LANCASTER, Pa. – A 14-year-old girl whose 18-year-old boyfriend allegedly fatally shot her parents left willingly with him after the slayings and was not kidnapped, prosecutors said in court papers filed Monday.
Kara Borden told detectives she left of her own free will, according to the filing. David Ludwig told detectives the two planned to get married and start a new life together.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20051121-1519-parentsslain.html

 

[Olivia77]

Also posted on the discussion thread.

Prosecutors are saying Kara Beth Borden was not kidnapped.

LANCASTER, Pa. – A 14-year-old girl whose 18-year-old boyfriend allegedly fatally shot her parents left willingly with him after the slayings and was not kidnapped, prosecutors said in court papers filed Monday.
Kara Borden told detectives she left of her own free will, according to the filing. David Ludwig told detectives the two planned to get married and start a new life together.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20051121-1519-parentsslain.html

 

[scandi]

Thanks Concerned,

A most interesting read. If this is true and she is still charged, I think the fact he had manipulated her mind will be her saving grace.

The last statement in the article bothered me though. I didn't see any indication he was manipulating girls with his religious 'line' to have these girls become partners in murdering people.


Scandi

 

[concernedperson]

But was she manipulated? Read my other posts about what he has done before. 14 is young and not steady as far as independent decisions. Being scared and alone would make you accept a lot. Think of how Shasta Groene cooperated with Duncan. Does that make her evil or a victim? Did she love her brother, Dylan? Yes, she did. But it was out of her control.So, do you condemn to try and live or because you aren't a hero to die because of public opinion? Compassion is always importent.

 

[concernedperson]

Thanks Concerned,

A most interesting read. If this is true and she is still charged, I think the fact he had manipulated her mind will be her saving grace.

The last statement in the article bothered me though. I didn't see any indication he was manipulating girls with his religious 'line' to have these girls become partners in murdering people.

Scandi

I agree. His murdering was his own fantasy.