PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

[concernedperson]

I agree. His veiled threat to tell that Hawaiian girl's parents they had "gone too far" is over the top. Completely manipulative, in a very devious way. He found her fear, and he poked at it. He'd warn her before he told her parents. Oh my . . .

This is what is importent when we are looking at him. This is the psychopath in our midst. Not Duncan yet, but working on it.

 

[KatherineQ]

This is what is importent we when are looking at him. This is the psychopath in our midst. Not Duncan yet, but working on it.

And the good thing is, he's done being "in our midst". He's going to prison for life. Or close enough.

What's kind of a surprise to me is that as far as I can tell, his family hasn't issued a public statement. They must be fairly involved parents - home schoolers - and they haven't spoken at all from what I can tell.

edited to add: I think he was on his way to becoming a Jim Jones or a David Koresh.

 

[IdahoMom]

With the exception of all the guns, I've heard nothing about David Ludwig's home life/family, and haven't seen any statements released on his parents' behalf. Has anyone here heard anything from/about his family?

 

[concernedperson]

And the good thing is, he's done being "in our midst". He's going to prison for life. Or close enough.

What's kind of a surprise to me is that as far as I can tell, his family hasn't issued a public statement. They must be fairly involved parents - home schoolers - and they haven't spoken at all from what I can tell.

You aren't going to yell from the treetops that you have been the perfect parents when your kid has just being accused of double murder.

 

[KatherineQ]

You aren't going to yell from the treetops that you have been the perfect parents when your kid has just being accused of double murder.

I was surprised there hasn't been anything. No description of the family, even. Nothing. Seems extremely odd.

 

[concernedperson]

I was surprised there hasn't been anything. No description of the family, even. Nothing. Seems extremely odd.

Even why 54 guns were found in the home. 54 not 1 or 2 but 54. I find this a very large amount of guns.

 

[scandi]

God bless the two sibs that Kara deserted, leaving the sister alone in the house with her dead parents, and a little brother having to run to the neighbors to get help. I am very upset about this like Concerned is now that I know what Kara did.

I hope they charge her with complicity of some sort for leaving the children behind in a disastrouis situation, of course unless she knew ahead of time that he had planned to kill her folks. Then she should be an accessory to murder.

If you read the article that Concerned gave us from the crime library, you'll come away wondering if he had a way of putting girls under a religious spell of obligation where sex was the catalyst.

The girl in Hawaii knew he had major problems, enough that she knew she wouldn't see him any more. And yet her letter to him was tight with him. She really wanted to but knew he was no good I think. A hard pull for her, mainly because she knew right from wrong. She was afraid he would tell her P's who would flip out. Having sex with him was a no no even in her book.

In Kara's case, yes, a religious family, a productive home environment. But I think Kara had a problem with her father. I just feel it. And the mother sided with her man as women do. I think he absolutely came unglued in the confrontation and threatened police action to David. P*ssed him off. It made it just that much easier to kill him for David. So sad.

Scandi

EDIT: Darn, I'm forgetful today :waitasec: I wanted to say I don't think she was brainwashed or under a spell. She was mesmerized by David. Totally.

 

[reb]

i think this case captures perfectly the question of: just WHERE do you draw the line between your typical vapid, shallow american teen, and hollow sociopath?? in this case, it seems they overlap (in both kara & david).

you know all those reports of her crying hysterically after they caught them,, i was wondering how much she was crying over her dead parents, and how much she was crying because her little dream escape with her dream man had come to an end.

and having a computer in her own room and her own cell phone?? i would call that spoiled, except for the fact that it seems every kid has that stuff now.
even those raised in a "good christian home" are not immune to the evils of these things (along with TV, the "entertainment" industry, etc.), and the feeble-minded- even more so. kara's parents homeschooled her to protect her, but the internet & her having a cell phone enabled her to engage in promiscuous behavior. not that she couldn't have been promiscuous and gotten into trouble without them,, but i do think these things (technology) just makes it easier to get into trouble.

but don't worry CP,, keep in mind that luckily, it seems sociopaths are still in the minority. and remember there's just a lot more rotten apples nowadays because, well... with the population exploding every day, there's just a lot more apples.

 

[chicoliving]

GRACE: Now they`re starting a new life, all right, Brett, but not exactly the one they planned.

Everyone, again, just in. This is the commonwealth`s answer to the defendant`s motion for production, inspection, preservation of state`s evidence. That is referring to clothing, gunshot rounds, photos, fingerprints, documents, you name it. This is the state`s response back to the defense request, and in it, as Brett Lovelace just told you, disturbing information.

Go ahead, Brett. It`s my understanding that when he left the home, he went looking for her?

LOVELACE: He did. She ran out of the house before he did. She had a chance to see him shoot her mother. She continued to flee out of the house. He exits the house, doesn`t see her right away. He goes to the Volkswagen, gets in it, drives approximately 15 feet and then sees her running down the road toward him, flags him down, and then gets into the vehicle...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait...

LOVELACE: ... and they make off...

GRACE: ... wait, wait! That was not clear to me in this document. Are you telling me this girl basically chased after him and flagged him down to get in the car, after he`d just shot the father, I believe, in the back of the head, and the mother seated in a chair with a blanket over her legs?

LOVELACE: You`re exactly right.

GRACE: She flagged him down to go with him?

LOVELACE: You`re exactly right, Nancy. She did.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0511/21/ng.01.html

 

[Lili]

With the exception of all the guns, I've heard nothing about David Ludwig's home life/family, and haven't seen any statements released on his parents' behalf. Has anyone here heard anything from/about his family?

I did read that Mr. Ludwig is a commercial pilot and the mom stays at home.

"The public defender said Ludwig's parents are supporting their son.
In speaking with the family, I will indicate Ludwig family's concerns go out to the Borden family, their own family, and, frankly, everybody else who has been touched by this tragedy," Spahn said.
http://www.nbc10.com/news/5341725/detail.html

"Ludwig's parents, Gregory and Jane Ludwig, issued a statement Wednesday expressing their sorrow for the "events which challenge everything about us."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/wireStory?id=1320818&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
***********************

NOT to be confused with this Gregory David Ludwig who is about 23 yr. old and his case had an enormous effect on 11 cases of involuntary manslaughter in Jefferson Co., Pa.
http://www.punxsutawneyspirit.com/articles/2005/06/01/news/news2.txt

 

[newtv]

Well on anderson cooper just reported that the entire prosecutions charges are based on what david told them-he is trying to get the kidnapping charges dropped.

This is quoted directly from the reporter-that it is based on Davids word..and so this is not even new-we heard this 2 days ago.

This is a signed avadavit by Ludwig - big deal!

Of course he would see it thru his own eyes and its not his first capture of a g/friend-police confirmed he ran off with a former gf.

So nothing new-just hype..and all from david.
He said she chased his car and yet he was looking for her in his car-she ran..so who knows-regardless I dont buy his story thats for sure.

 

[reb]

i think the parents are embarrassed and ashamed not only of their son, but of the fact that authorities have uncovered a freaking arsenal in their home, and a "good christian home" at that. they probably feel partially responsible, leaving all those things around.

and it used to be that homeschooling parents were usually intelligent and "involved" parents, but more and more, it all too often proves they are just "nutty" parents.

 

[netsleuth]

Well on anderson cooper just reported that the entire prosecutions charges are based on what david told them-he is trying to get the kidnapping charges dropped.

This is quoted directly from the reporter-that it is based on Davids word..and so this is not even new-we heard this 2 days ago.

This is a signed avadavit by Ludwig - big deal!

Of course he would see it thru his own eyes and its not his first capture of a g/friend-police confirmed he ran off with a former gf.

So nothing new-just hype..and all from david.
He said she chased his car and yet he was looking for her in his car-she ran..so who knows-regardless I dont buy his story thats for sure.

A 14-year-old girl whose 18-year-old boyfriend allegedly killed her parents left with him willingly after the slayings and was not kidnapped, prosecutors said in court papers filed Monday.

David Ludwig told detectives Kara Borden ran from her home and into his car after he shot her parents Nov. 13, according to documents filed by Lancaster County prosecutors. Kara Borden told detectives she went with him of her own free will, according to the filing.

Ludwig confessed to the killings, saying he shot the parents after the father told him to stop seeing his daughter, according to the court filing. Ludwig said he shot Michael Borden in the back as he was going down the hallway to the front door and then went looking for Cathryn Borden.

"I shot mom as she was sitting in the chair," Ludwig was quoted as telling detectives. "It was an intentional murder, I intended to shoot them, and I did."

Ludwig told detectives that after the killings, he couldn't find Kara Borden. He started to drive away and saw her running down the road toward him.

She got in the car and said she wanted to "get as far away as possible, get married, and start a new life," Ludwig told detectives.

Lancaster County District Attorney Donald Totaro said Monday the kidnapping charge against Ludwig, of Lititz, will be dropped at his preliminary hearing next month.

Robert Beyer, an attorney representing Kara Borden, said he was not upset by the news that the kidnapping charge would be dropped.

"When you think about it, it's a lot cleaner this way," Beyer said.


http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-11212005-573663.html

 

[netsleuth]

From Nancy Grace:

Lisa Wayne, do you predict that -- OK, this girl, 14-year-old Kara Borden, has not been named as a suspect. But now we have state documents we just got, as I walked to the set tonight, claiming that she chased Ludwig down to get in the car with him after he murdered her parents.

What do you think, Lisa, cut a deal with her?

WAYNE: Yes, I think that`s what they do. But, you know, if I`m defending her, I`m going to go after the fact that, you know, duress, it can be a powerful way to coerce someone into doing something they normally wouldn`t do.

And this kid, she was under duress, that she wasn`t stable, that she`s a vulnerable victim for him. And I`m going to go after that, that she didn`t really have a choice and that she felt like she was going after her rescuer.



http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0511/21/ng.01.html

kinda ironic if she has to testify against David to save her own a**

 

[twinkiesmom]

<<concernedperson
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,917

But was she manipulated? Read my other posts about what he has done before. 14 is young and not steady as far as independent decisions. Being scared and alone would make you accept a lot. Think of how Shasta Groene cooperated with Duncan. Does that make her evil or a victim? Did she love her brother, Dylan? Yes, she did. But it was out of her control.So, do you condemn to try and live or because you aren't a hero to die because of public opinion? Compassion is always importent. >>

There is no comparison between Shasta and Kara. Shasta was a BABY stolen by a grown man. Shasta was a victim.

Kara willingly betrayed her parents, her church, herself at every opportunity.

Behaving like a tramp is not inevitable just because you're in your teens. She may have been manipulated into a relationship with this young man, but she still could have said NO (either at the point of having sex, sending nude photos, or going with him after he murdered her parents in cold blood).

 

[Bobbisangel]

That's to bad but I'm not at all surprised. I've just been waiting for LE to say that Kara wasn't kidnapped.

For 14 yrs old this little gal sure crossed the line. I think she was head over heels for this boy and no one was going to get inbetween them. I don't think one kid is to blame more than the other for their behavior before the murders.
I don't think this boy made Kara act like she did...letting him into her bedroom in the middle of the night...sending nude pictures of herself to him over the internet, etc. A lot of 14 yr old girls are far from being what 14 yr old girls used to be. They are way more advanced now days. They want to grow up to fast and do everything that they shouldn't be doing.

From what I've read these kids both come from good homes. The only problem that I see between Kara and her parents was that they didn't want her seeing an 18 yr old boy. It isn't always something that the parents do that cause a kid to go bad. Everytime something happens with kids the parents get the blame. A lot of good parents have had kids who ended up in trouble....all kinds of trouble. The kids have a responsibility to do what is right
and by the time they are in their teens they know right from wrong.

LE on Rita C. just said that David told them that the dad said that the two kids weren't going to be allowed to see each other again and David said that he decided right then to kill Kara's parents. LE said that he doesn't think Kara knew that David was going to kill her parents. I figured that the mom and dad were standing between these two kids and that is how it all came down.

I have a feeling that nothing will happen to Kara. This guy will be painted so black that it will come down to her being just taken in by him because she is so young and the poor little thing didn't have a clue. I say B.S. but I think that is how it will end up.

 

[fran]

Just when I think I can read people, something like this case comes along and I find I don't know people at all. I never in a million years thought Kara went with Ludwig willingly. I was absolutely certain, in my mind, she only went with him to save her siblings. Yet, now we learn, she not only went willingly, but ran after him after he'd already started driving away!

Good grief!

She knew he'd killed her parents. She knew her little brother and sister were still in the house, yet she chooses to leave with him!?

I don't buy that he had her brainwashed. I think she should be charged with accessory after the fact. I know she's only 14, but this is an adult world and an adult crime. She needs to be locked up.

JMHO
fran

PS.....What ever happened to 'blood is thicker than water?'........her parents for goodness sake!..........fran

 

[ThoughtFox]

OK - What I'm about to say might make some people angry, but I'm just writing from my own experiences in my own community.

I live in an area with ALOT of homeschooling going on. The vast majority of people who homeschool are great folks, and I even have a cousin who homeschools because she thought her son wasn't getting enough attention at school.

More power to anyone who has the patience to do it! Homeschooling also works well in helping kids get great scholarships for college, due to the fact that they have more time to work on extra projects, write essays, etc.

But there is a flip side to the whole scenario, and I think this case is a textbook example.

Lots of people homeschool so their children will be "sheltered" from other "types" of children. There is prejudice involved, and sometimes fear of their children "losing their religion" by going to public schools.

I don't think you can say this happened to a "traditional" family. My kids have a traditional family - two parents, three kids, and a stay-at-home Mom. But my kids aren't isolated from the rabble of society, and I wouldn't want them to be.

And the sad truth is that many homeschoolers are isolated from normal teenage interactions. Often the parents want it that way, so they can stay in control.

That is one reason this beautiful girl knew just one or two boys. The very first report I read about this case talked of a Homeschooling "Network." I'm familiar with how that works: there might be one parent who wants to teach history and has had good results with passing the state tests on that subject. So the homeschoolers meet at that person's house. They also network for fieldtrips, musical things or plays, math tutorials, etc.

Basically, homeschoolers don't always mix with people in their own neighborhoods. I know of two or three families within walking distance of my home who are homeschool families. They allow their children only very limited contact with other children - it's almost abusive, but it's legal. They might let their children play at another kids house, maybe once a month, and I'm not exaggerating.

I believe these kids were not living a normal life.

It may come out that this young sociopath who shot the parents has had troubles since he was young - perhaps that factored into why they parents decided to homeschool him in the first place. I think this boy had been indoctrinated to be "us against them," and hence, that is why his family had 54 weapons in their home. What were they expecting? A SWAT team attack at any moment? :doh:

I believe the parents thought they were in control of the girl's life, too, yet they weren't watching her Internet Activities, were they? Why shelter a child all her life, but let her post her picture on the Internet? It astonishes me!

I'm not blaming the victims for their deaths, I assure you. It sounds as if they thought they could reason with this boy. But the evil in him didn't just rise up all of a sudden - the reports of his film-making activities, planning violent raids and "patrols," dark clothes and maps, and his lying to more than one girl in the name of God, all point to a kid who had way, way too much time on his hands. He had learned to be a good little hypocrite, and use his "church speak" to gain the trust of young girls.

Why did the girl follow him down the road? And why was he more important to her than her parents and siblings? I have no idea, but it shows a certain obsession, doesn't it? My gosh - what next in this story?

 

[IdahoMom]

My gosh - what next in this story?

Let's just hope she's not pregnant.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Let's just hope she's not pregnant.

Oh my!:doh: I hadn't even thought of that!