PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

[Masterj]

I pray for Kara's sake she wasn't involved. As a formerly rebellious 13 and 14 year old, I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt. I grew up in a very loving and supportive household and had a good relationship with my parents. That said, I had a sister who was 6 years older whom I wanted to be like more than anything. She dated boys - I wanted to date boys. My parents put a lot of restrictions on me, which was normal and to be expected. However, I had a mind of my own and I was extremely naive. I started dating high school boys in 8th grade, as that was the year I grew into my own physically and I LOVED the attention I received for my looks. Our town was tiny and our high school was connected to our middle school. I snuck out to go to parties and out on group dates, always lying to my parents. At the time I knew I was disobeying my parents, but I didn't really understand the consequences of my actions. I drank here and there with my friends, but I never did drugs, and the only thing I did with boys was lots of making out (heavy kissing). I naively put myself into harmful situations never thinking about what could happen to me. As I am sure you can predict the next scene in my own Lifetime movie, my luck ran out and I learned the hard way that parents give you rules for a reason. My life from that moment on has been shaped by my rape and the way it forced me to examine myself and my decisions.

Although our experiences are very different, I am sad for Kara who will no doubt blame herself for everything that happened. She was a little girl caught up in a relationship she had no business being in. I can't help but think she got caught up in romanticizing the situation (her relationship with him) and lost all sense of judgment. However, I can't believe that this girl would willingly be a part of her parents' murder.

 

[mysteriew]

I find it difficult to believe that Kara was anything other than a teenager and a victim. I think the BF may have had some unsuspected emotional issues, and that he was more disturbed than people realized. I don't think at this point that he really premeditated the deaths of her parents.
From what I have read, Kara and the bf got caught on Sat. night. The parents seemed to have acted more reasonably than I probably would have. Instead of having a showdown that night, they asked that he return the next day to discuss the situation. I wonder if it wasn't common practice for this boy to be armed, to boost his ego. When he arrived to talk with Kara's parents, he was probably told she would be on very strict supervision and restrictions and that he was to have no contact with her. I think perhaps he was told he would no longer be welcome there. I think after discussion didn't work for the bf, that he exploded and killed the father, then as a reaction he killed the mother. If a guy is standing there with a gun, having just killed your parents- any 14 yo who was the least bit intelligent, would then do as she was told. LE has their cell phone text messages and their IM's. If there was anything to indicate she was involved, I think she would have been arrested by now. IMO

 

[docwho3]

I pray for Kara's sake she wasn't involved. As a formerly rebellious 13 and 14 year old, I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt. I grew up in a very loving and supportive household and had a good relationship with my parents. That said, I had a sister who was 6 years older whom I wanted to be like more than anything. She dated boys - I wanted to date boys. My parents put a lot of restrictions on me, which was normal and to be expected. However, I had a mind of my own and I was extremely naive. I started dating high school boys in 8th grade, as that was the year I grew into my own physically and I LOVED the attention I received for my looks. Our town was tiny and our high school was connected to our middle school. I snuck out to go to parties and out on group dates, always lying to my parents. At the time I knew I was disobeying my parents, but I didn't really understand the consequences of my actions. I drank here and there with my friends, but I never did drugs, and the only thing I did with boys was lots of making out (heavy kissing). I naively put myself into harmful situations never thinking about what could happen to me. As I am sure you can predict the next scene in my own Lifetime movie, my luck ran out and I learned the hard way that parents give you rules for a reason. My life from that moment on has been shaped by my rape and the way it forced me to examine myself and my decisions.

Although our experiences are very different, I am sad for Kara who will no doubt blame herself for everything that happened. She was a little girl caught up in a relationship she had no business being in. I can't help but think she got caught up in romanticizing the situation (her relationship with him) and lost all sense of judgment. However, I can't believe that this girl would willingly be a part of her parents' murder.

Thank you for posting the hard truth. I am sure it was not easy but if it helps one parent or one young person it is worth more than your weight in gold.

 

[13th Juror]

I haven't read this entire thread and have probably missed alot. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but at 14 my dd surely would not be dating. This is so sad that a 14 yr old's parents are dead. My thoughts and prayers go out for the remaining family.

Good morning Kahskye n' all

I have to agree that "14" is a bit too young to be dating - especially "single dating" where the young man is older and has access to the family car.

I grew up in the 50's-60's with extremely strict parents. Being that I was a year or 2 younger than the majority of my classmates - it was difficult for my parents not to allow me to date when I was a sophomore in high school. I was just "14". Parents drove us to most events (dances, movie theatres, sporting events, et al).

By age 15-16 (Junior year) - the house rules were "double date only" and a 10:30-11:00 pm curfew. (They were always up & waiting for me! <lol>) Also - my parents must have met & approved of "my date" prior to going out. And not for just a few minutes on the same night as the date! Oh - and missing curfew without a very good reason (not a lame excuse!) meant 2 weeks of "grounding".

By age 16-17 (Senior year) - I was "going steady" with a really terrific guy that was every parent's dream. He was a year or so older, charming, remarkably handsome, impecable manners, responsible, respectful (all that good stuff! <lol>) & adored my parents - so thankfully, my curfew was extended to midnight & I was finally allowed to "single date". I think my Mom was terribly disappointed when later on - the distance of our respective college lives finally took their toll on our relationship. Anyway - that old flame is currently a criminal court judge here in Central Florida - and has continued to keep in touch with my entire family for the past 40 years.

These days - I see 13 & 14 yr. old girls dressing like .. well, let's just say - very provocatively and hanging out - drinking/doing drugs with guys 3-5 years their senior. They are wearing way too much heavy make-up along with the skimpy outfits. What's up with that?? Where are their parents??

Curfews & parental respect seems to have gone right out-the-window - as many are making their own ultra-liberal rules where moral behavior & personal integrity are concerned. It's heartbreaking to me to see how so many kids are growing up today - and the utter lack of "honor and respect" they have for their parents or any code of values.

Perhaps - it is the parents neglect of leading by example (a poor one!) .. or maybe it's just a sad sign of the times we now live in. Don't know .. but, the lack of values & parental control really concerns me.

Seems I digressed a bit - so, speaking more to the "thread topic" - I truly hope that the "love obsessed" Kara Borden wasn't *instrumental* or involved in the pre-meditated murder of her parents.

Young teens, without the emotional maturity that the growing up years eventually bring - tend to say rather foolish things to one another. Things like -
"I hate my parents"

"They are sooo unfair .. they just don't understand how we feel about each other!"

"We could be together .. if only we didn't have my parents standing in our way."

"Dude, my parents would have you arrested and thrown in jail or maybe even kill you if they ever found out we were having sex."

"I hate their stupid rules, I can live without them but I could never live without you."

"What if "our friend" tells .. I'll never be able to see you again .. what are we gonna do?"


Somehow - I don't think that Kara seriously planned with Ludwig to murder her parents. I do, however, feel that she probably did go along willingly with him after her parents were killed. No threat by Ludwig or gun to her head. According to newspaper reports - sister Katelyn & 11 yr. old David Borden both said that the couple had fled the house before they left to flee to neighbor's homes for help. I think Kara's emotional attachment, that comes with an intimate sexual bonding, led this immature teen to flee with her boyfriend without thinking.

Unimportant but happened to notice ...

Newspaper reports give Katelyn's age as 13 (as the younger sister) and then 15 as Kara's older sister. Newspaper accounts also list younger brother David's age as 11 and sometimes as 9 - so who knows which is accurate. Older brothers, Justin & James are just listed as in their 20's.

Whether or not Kara had prior knowledge of Ludwig's intent that fateful Sunday morning - her disrespectful irresponsible behavior of sneaking behind her parent's back, lying to them and carrying on a secretive sexual relationship with this 18 yr. old .. was a direct contributing factor to their brutal deaths. It started with the poor choices she independently made - even after the stern warnings from well-meaning friends. That's something this teen will have to live with the rest of her life.

I don't know how her 4 siblings & extended family will ever be able to come to grips with her selfish behavior and fully forgive her for what she has taken away from all of them. I hope, in time - they will find that forgiveness through their faith.

My prayers go out to all of the family members - Kara's & David's. This is an unimaginable nightmare that just didn't have to happen!


ETA: Sorry for such a long rant - needed to "get some of the feelings out", I guess.

JMHO - for what it's worth ...

13th Juror

 

[Masterj]

13th juror, you wrote: "she has taken away from all of them."

Unless she is proven to be involved with planning and/or carrying out this murder, Kara DID NOT take her parents away from all of them. David did.

 

[Hbgchick]

13th juror, you wrote: "she has taken away from all of them."

Unless she is proven to be involved with planning and/or carrying out this murder, Kara DID NOT take her parents away from all of them. David did.

I disagree Masterj. David pulled the trigger, but Kara was the force behind and with David. I agree with 13th Jurors statement:

"- her disrespectful irresponsible behavior of sneaking behind her parent's back, lying to them and carrying on a secretive sexual relationship with this 18 yr. old .. was a direct contributing factor to their brutal deaths. It started with the poor choices she independently made - even after the stern warnings from well-meaning friends. That's something this teen will have to live with the rest of her life."

Do you think that David would have just walked up and shot those two innocent people if not for Kara?

 

[concernedperson]

Cops: Video Shows Ludwig, Friend Planned To Kill Family

http://www.nbc10.com/news/5356180/detail.html?rss=phi&psp=news



This definately shows some serious problems. The friend needs to be looked at too.

 

[Hbgchick]

Looks a lot worse with hindsight though, doesn't it? Had this video been found by his parents, say...before the murders...I'm sure they would have been pretty PO'd and would have every right to be, but David and his friend would have at least had the chance to say "hey...we were just goofing around...jeez mom...we wouldn't have really DONE anything like that - if we were we sure wouldn't have taped it!". But I guess an explaination like that sure won't work now.

 

[Masterj]

I disagree Masterj. David pulled the trigger, but Kara was the force behind and with David. I agree with 13th Jurors statement:

"- her disrespectful irresponsible behavior of sneaking behind her parent's back, lying to them and carrying on a secretive sexual relationship with this 18 yr. old .. was a direct contributing factor to their brutal deaths. It started with the poor choices she independently made - even after the stern warnings from well-meaning friends. That's something this teen will have to live with the rest of her life."

Do you think that David would have just walked up and shot those two innocent people if not for Kara?

I definitely agree that she acted irresponsibly and I am sure she will regret that for the rest of her life. However, unless she conspired with David to kill her parents, he is ultimately responsible for making that decision. As I stated before, unless police reveal evidence to the contrary, I will continue to consider Kara a victim as well.

 

[PrayersForMaura]

Cops: Video Shows Ludwig, Friend Planned To Kill Family

http://www.nbc10.com/news/5356180/detail.html?rss=phi&psp=news



This definately shows some serious problems. The friend needs to be looked at too.

That was an interesting story! Thanks for posting.
Ticks me off. He should get a harsh punishment.
This one just got posted too ... looks like the same story but it's a little longer. Probably just rehashing older info.

http://kutv.com/topstories/topstories_story_322152205.html

 

[richandfamous]

Cops: Video Shows Ludwig, Friend Planned To Kill Family

http://www.nbc10.com/news/5356180/detail.html?rss=phi&psp=news



This definately shows some serious problems. The friend needs to be looked at too.

"They also discussed having sex with Kara Borden and her sister and "that the sex would constitute statutory rape and the potential to have to shoot a guy named 'Jonathan' if he found out about it," the affidavit said."

yep, I'd say he had red flags all over him! I wonder how Kara feels seeing Ludwig and his friend discussing having sex with her and her sister so brazenly? He didn't "love" her...he just wanted sex...so that sort of throws out the theory that he did it because he was consumed with love for her.

and, I wonder who Jonathan is????

 

[joanofarc]

I wonder if Jonathan is one of Kara's older brothers...?

David's friend, Lohr, is 19 so maybe they or he hung around with one or both of the brothers...the brothers are suppose to be in there early 20's right?

 

[Masterj]

Isn't Kara's sister 13 years old?

 

[mysteriew]

"They also discussed having sex with Kara Borden and her sister and "that the sex would constitute statutory rape and the potential to have to shoot a guy named 'Jonathan' if he found out about it," the affidavit said."

yep, I'd say he had red flags all over him! I wonder how Kara feels seeing Ludwig and his friend discussing having sex with her and her sister so brazenly? He didn't "love" her...he just wanted sex...so that sort of throws out the theory that he did it because he was consumed with love for her.

and, I wonder who Jonathan is????

Could Jonathon be one of the older brothers?
They have said that the home that they were talking about breaking into wasn't the Borden's home. I wonder who they were talking about breaking in and why?

 

[richandfamous]

Isn't Kara's sister 13 years old?

yes, 13. somehow I don't think the two young men cared how young either one of them were. I wonder if Kara's sister had been sneeking around with her sister. Things are looking pretty bad.

also, someone asked if "Jonathan" was Kara's older brother...No. I read their names somewhere but I'm pretty sure that was not either on of their names.

 

[reb]

kara's older brothers are named james & justin.

she is obviously not DIRECTLY responsible for her parent's death, i.e., she didn't pull the trigger, but she IS responsible for brazenly breaking her parent's (very reasonable!) rules, and bringing this psycho into their lives. i don't care if she's "only" 14... she's NOT an "innocent victim" in the sense that she was walking down the street minding her own business.

 

[reb]

one thing i didn't understand in the most recent articles... did LE determine that these 2 hoodlums HAD actually broken into some other properties?? or were they just fantasizing about it?

and what is up with the dad owning 52 guns, or whatever it was? that's not a collection, that's an arsenal. was he preparing for the rapture or something...?

 

[richandfamous]

one thing i didn't understand in the most recent articles... did LE determine that these 2 hoodlums HAD actually broken into some other properties?? or were they just fantasizing about it?

and what is up with the dad owning 52 guns, or whatever it was? that's not a collection, that's an arsenal. was he preparing for the rapture or something...?

armagedon!


anyway, I have to agree that she stupidly put her whole family at risk. However, if it hadn't been her, it would have been some other equally stupid, rebellious teen that he hooked up with. (bad grammar, I know) :sick:

 

[newtv]

masterJ..thku for your story- i am sorry u had to learn such a harsh lesson- I had a fair amount of rebellion too and I wonder why i am alive sometimes-just thinking of the driving with those drinking-and riding on motorcycles as if i was invincible-hanging with older people.
it could be anyone and it was you - u did not deserve that.

 

[reb]

yes they say that's true, but when i was under 21, my brain was developed enough to know not to point a gun at someone and take their life. as was everyone else's i knew. but then again our brains didn't grow up saturated daily with violent/explicitly sexual video games, violent/explicitly sexual rap music, violent/explicitly sexual movies, violent/explicitly sexual internet, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. and were too busy doing things like *homework* and chores to do much else.

where do these kids get all this free time today to get into such trouble?????