PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

  • #241
reb said:
kara's older brothers are named james & justin.

she is obviously not DIRECTLY responsible for her parent's death, i.e., she didn't pull the trigger, but she IS responsible for brazenly breaking her parent's (very reasonable!) rules, and bringing this psycho into their lives. i don't care if she's "only" 14... she's NOT an "innocent victim" in the sense that she was walking down the street minding her own business.

There is a reason why 14 yo's are supposed to be in the care of their parents. It is because they are not experienced enough or psychologically ready to be totally capable of making good decisions all the time. Holding her responsible is IMO like holding the parents responsible- they allowed him in the house to visit at other times. Her parents were not responsible, they had no idea what he capable of, and it is totally possible that she didn't either. Unless they come up with info to the contrary, as far as I am concerned, she was just as much a victim as her parents were. IMO
 
  • #242
mysteriew said:
There is a reason why 14 yo's are supposed to be in the care of their parents. It is because they are not experienced enough or psychologically ready to be totally capable of making good decisions all the time. Holding her responsible is IMO like holding the parents responsible- they allowed him in the house to visit at other times. Her parents were not responsible, they had no idea what he capable of, and it is totally possible that she didn't either. Unless they come up with info to the contrary, as far as I am concerned, she was just as much a victim as her parents were. IMO
i totally agree- she is not responsible for what a psycho does and thats as good as blaming laci for scott being a killer-its totally unfair.
If the facts unfold and she did anything herself then so be it-but for now she is presumed not involved..I give her the benefit of the doubt.
if as reb says she is indirectly responsible for bringing the psycho into their lives then I guess every man or womkan who brings a looney tune into the family should be burned at the stake and made to live with whatever that person does as if they did it themsleves-thats just not the way things go- his parents are responsible for him and noone else had a hand in raising him -certainly not the 14 yr old
she barely knew him and she is not unlike most boy crazy teens..she is not responsible for not reading his psychology-most 14 year olds havent been trained to pick out psychopaths-they barely appear visible to adults-who would know what was going on in the double lives of so many killers who look normal..thats just a narrow way of looking at the complexity of young love and and the mind of a young girl with an older boy.
There is only one person responsible for the deaths of her parents and thats the guy who was packing the guns with him when he went to talk to them

and
this could have been any of us-thats the sad reality-noone knows what their kids might be doing that is potentially dangerous-first of all kids lie-and hide and if we jailed every teenager that keeps secrets we would have them all incarcerated.
Its different when u are 18 and you pack guns with u as atool of communication-a old west style tantrum.
Anyone with kids should be careful who they judge cuz your family could be next-or mine-even the best kids get into things that are over their heads and it alters their lives forever..
Look at Patty hearst for example- noone will convince me that on her own she would have saught out that group of monsters-but once with them only she knows what was happening-i dont believe she should have served a day of jail but she did. (she was a college student too).
14 year olds are not fully formed and mature-they just are not
and since the police have released her they are not convinced she was involved
when something turns up then we can discuss the facts-but she is not responsible in anyway for this but she will have plenty of people like the poster here who make her feel like she is.
 
  • #243
hey gang -ng was ok tonight-maybe someone came down on her at work..hope so-she admitted she was wrong tonight..:eek:

i only caught about 15 minutes of the show tho so who knows
 
  • #244
Didn't see it as I was in chat. I hope she is leveling cuz I have a lot of faith in Nancy. Just recently it was boiling my blood. Want to have the faith...really want to. Newtv, glad to see you around. Need your levity. And our input.
 
  • #245
concernedperson said:
Didn't see it as I was in chat. I hope she is leveling cuz I have a lot of faith in Nancy. Just recently it was boiling my blood. Want to have the faith...really want to. Newtv, glad to see you around. Need your levity. And our input.
CP
I was going to say the same thing-that I just get to a point where I cant take it and then she has 2 shows that show her professionalism and i am all fan again
 
  • #246
newtv said:
CP
I was going to say the same thing-that I just get to a point where I cant take it and then she has 2 shows that show her professionalism and i am all fan again

Don't you just hate it when we get conflicted? Maybe, they are counting on us. I hate to be played.I just want real people to say real things.No BS just shoot straight.
 
  • #247
concernedperson said:
Don't you just hate it when we get conflicted? Maybe, they are counting on us. I hate to be played.I just want real people to say real things.No BS just shoot straight.
totally-and maybe they are just human-and need boundaries-maybe her parents tell her Nancy u were over the top tonight.
 
  • #248
newtv said:
totally-and maybe they are just human-and need boundaries-maybe her parents tell her Nancy u were over the top tonight.

Wouldn't that be a cool thought. Bring her down a notch and make her like us. Just real, no need for extra drama. We can still talk and express our heartfelt grief and not go over the edge. I want her to come back to that.That is the Nancy that will do the good. Not the media darling.
 
  • #249
concernedperson said:
Wouldn't that be a cool thought. Bring her down a notch and make her like us. Just real, no need for extra drama. We can still talk and express our heartfelt grief and not go over the edge. I want her to come back to that.That is the Nancy that will do the good. Not the media darling.
for sure- it seems like maybe someone did and i cant imagine her listening to anyone but her parents
 
  • #250
There is something that has been bothering me about this case (other than the obvious) and I couldn't put my finger on it at first, but now I have.

The mother was found shot to death sitting in a chair in her bedroom.

So far, the scenario is that the 14 yr. old daughter, Kara, had been out all night or at least very, very late with Ludwig. Ludwig drops Kara off at her house and returns to his own home. Kara's father calls Ludwig's home and invites him over for a talk. It has to have been very early in the morning, since murders had already occurred by 8:00 AM. Ludwig comes over to the girl's house carrying a duffle bag full of weapons which he deposits on the front porch. Ludwig enters the house with a handgun tucked into his belt? Talks to the father in the livingroom for an hour, is asked/told to leave and Ludwig shoots father in back of head.

Sister who is 15 is in or near the living room, supposedly sees her father get shot in the head. Sister runs and hides in bathroom. Little brother is up and awake and runs out of house to neighbor's house at some point. Sis states after Ludwig shot father he ran through house calling for Kara.

Where was Kara when the shot was fired into her father's head in the livingroom? Certainly a gunshot in a living room would be heard throughout the house, no matter how large the house.

Why was the mother found dead still sitting in a chair with a blanket over her legs?

Any chance there were two guns involved in these murders? Any chance Kara was aiming a gun at her mother to keep her mother sitting where she was?

I find it difficult to believe that the mother never left her chair after a gunshot went off within the house unless there was some compelling reason for her not to leave the chair.

This is just my opinion.
 
  • #251
an interesting xanga comment from a friend of kara's sister:

"good, you have your facts straighter than most ppl. actually, after david shot the parents he went and found katelyn and chased her around till she locked herself in the bathroom and called her friend jon (who's house she's at right now) and jon called the police. then david went and found her lil brother (david) and lil david like, flipped out and begged him not to shoot... and so stupid david had lil david go inside and took kara and bolted.


i'm so scared..."

i bet that's the "jonathan" in the story about who they would have to shoot in the story yesterday about the video.

link here:
http://www.xanga.com/Guitarres_de_Amor/386642768/item.html
 
  • #252
AlwaysShocked said:
I find it difficult to believe that the mother never left her chair after a gunshot went off within the house unless there was some compelling reason for her not to leave the chair.

This is just my opinion.
I don't know what the facts were; however, it does seem possible that the mother did get up and David ordered her to sit back down while pointing a gun at her.

Perhaps the mother ran to another room because she was scared. Perhaps David was worried that she might call LE, so he followed her into the other room, ordered her to sit down, and then shot her.

He had the gun, he was in control.
 
  • #253
Mysteries grow as more information revealed in double-slaying


By MARTHA RAFFAELE
The Associated Press


LITITZ, Pa. - The relationship between 18-year-old David Ludwig and 14-year-old Kara Borden was a closely guarded secret.

There was good reason for the two teens to keep things quiet: Their four-year age difference displeased their parents.

"They weren't officially boyfriend and girlfriend because their parents didn't approve of them being together," said 16-year-old Stephanie Mannon, one of Kara's neighbors. "Sometimes they would secretly get together."

Tensions in the Borden household spilled over early last Sunday, when police say Ludwig fatally shot Kara's parents, Michael and Cathryn Borden, following an argument over their relationship and then abducted the girl. He is being held without bail on murder and kidnapping charges after being flown back to Lancaster County on Tuesday from Indiana, where police captured him following a chase.

As additional information was released throughout the week about Ludwig and Kara Borden, the number of unanswered questions in the case only seemed to grow.

Police say they consider Kara a victim, but that their investigation is continuing. In court filings, Ludwig's attorney said that any surveillance tapes that can be obtained from stops the pair made along the way to Indiana will show she was not kidnapped.

Kara's sister, Katelyn, told police she met Ludwig in May and saw him regularly at a support group for home-schooled students - neighbors say Kara and Ludwig met through such a group - as well as at church and at the Borden house.

"She (Katelyn) knows him well, and considered him to be a friend," according to court papers describing Katelyn's interview with police.

Both teens were raised in loving families and educated at home, those who know the families said. Kara is one of five children, including two adult brothers who live out of state; Ludwig has two younger sisters.

"They were good kids and they were brought up very well. What I see is, they just made some bad choices," said Vera Zimmerman, 50, who has known the Bordens for seven years and is acquainted with Ludwig's mother. Her 26-year-old daughter Reba also worked as the family's housekeeper.

Those who know Kara describe her as a bubbly, outgoing girl who occasionally babysat younger children in her neighborhood and liked to play soccer.


...


But Zimmerman recalled a conversation several months ago in which Cathryn Borden expressed concerns about Kara's interest in boys. Kara was allowed to go out unsupervised, as along as she was with girls, Zimmerman said.

"It was boys in general," Zimmerman said about the source of Cathryn Borden's worries. "At one point, they had cut off her Internet service because of her connection with David."

One close friend of Ludwig's, Samuel P. Lohr, apparently knew how serious the relationship was, according to a search-warrant affidavit filed in court. During an interview with police on Monday, Lohr, 19, said he was "well aware" that the two "were involved in an ongoing secret intimate relationship of a sexual nature."

He also told police that Kara and Ludwig often exchanged "flirtatious messages" and "inappropriate images" of one another electronically, the affidavit said.

Cristen L. Frederick, a co-worker of Ludwig's at a Lancaster electronics store, said she was aware of his relationship with Kara, but that Ludwig didn't openly discuss it. Frederick, a 23-year-old college student, described Ludwig as "optimistic and happy and just an all-around good kid."

Ludwig, who had been working at the store for about five months, mentioned to Frederick on one occasion that he had talked to Kara about the possibility of seeing each other less frequently and "just hanging out as friends."

"He said she seemed OK with it," Frederick said.

Isaiah Bomberger, a 17-year-old fellow home-schooler, said he was surprised to learn about the relationship. Bomberger said he and Ludwig, who had recently visited Houghton College, a Christian college in western New York state, expected to graduate at the end of this school year.

"They were friends, but I couldn't have said they were boyfriend and girlfriend," Bomberger said.

Bomberger said he initially couldn't believe the news about the killings and that he later felt "numb."

But a dark side of Ludwig was revealed in court documents released Friday. In an 18-minute video recovered from a laptop computer in his home, Ludwig is seen discussing plans to conduct an armed raid on another family's home, the documents said.






http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-11192005-572816.html
 
  • #254
LITITZ, Pa. - Kara Borden sat with her four siblings in the chapel of Lancaster Bible College for her parents' funeral on Saturday. On the Bordens' street, white ribbons were affixed to mailboxes to honor their memory.

The relationship between 18-year-old David Ludwig and 14-year-old Borden was a closely guarded secret. There was good reason to keep things quiet: Their four-year age difference displeased their parents.

The tensions in the Borden house apparently spilled over last Sunday, when police say Ludwig fatally shot Kara's parents, Michael and Cathryn Borden, after an argument about their relationship, then fled with the girl. The two were found the following day after a chase and crash in Indiana. Ludwig is being held without bail on murder and kidnapping charges; Kara in the care of relatives and church members.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051119/ap_on_re_us/parents_slain_relationship_2
 
  • #255
She looks pretty upset to me :(


capt.pabb10611192140.parents_slain_abduction_pabb106.jpg
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg....jpg?x=318&y=345&sig=XU0txXmkEmD_O.uWMFQ5jg--


She is going to be devastated for the rest of her life.
Love comes and goes when you're young. But your family is forever/
Prayers for her and her siblings....
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/051119/480/pabb10611192140;_ylt=AnzcnJS0NbZdkOXBwP7pq_dH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3bGk2OHYzBHNlYwN0bXA
 
  • #256
Pa. Teen Attends Slain Parents' Funeral

LITITZ, Pa. - Kara Borden sat with her four siblings in the chapel of Lancaster Bible College for her parents' funeral on Saturday. On the Bordens' street,
white ribbons were affixed to mailboxes to honor their memory.


capt.pabb10611192140.parents_slain_abduction_pabb106.jpg

The relationship between 18-year-old David Ludwig and 14-year-old Borden was a closely guarded secret. There was good reason to keep things quiet: Their four-year age difference displeased their parents.
The tensions in the Borden house apparently spilled over last Sunday, when police say Ludwig fatally shot Kara's parents, Michael and Cathryn Borden, after an argument about their relationship, then fled with the girl. The two were found the following day after a chase and crash in Indiana. Ludwig is being held without bail on murder and kidnapping charges; Kara in the care of relatives and church members.

"They weren't officially boyfriend and girlfriend because their parents didn't approve of them being together," said 16-year-old Stephanie Mannon, one of Kara's neighbors. "Sometimes they would secretly get together."

Neighbors say the two teens met at a support group for home-schooled students. Kara's sister, Katelyn, told police she met Ludwig in May and saw him regularly at the group.

"They were good kids and they were brought up very well. What I see is, they just made some bad choices," said Vera Zimmerman, 50, who has known the Bordens for seven years and is acquainted with Ludwig's mother.

Kara has been described by neighbors and friends as a bubbly, outgoing girl who occasionally baby-sat younger children in her neighborhood and liked to play soccer. She regularly attended youth group meetings and got along well with her sister, said Kevin Eshleman, executive pastor of Ephrata Community Church.

"In my mind, that generally indicates that things are going OK at home," Eshleman said.

There were indications, however, that there was tension between Kara and her parents. Zimmerman recalled a conversation several months ago in which Cathryn Borden expressed concern about her daughter's interest in boys.

"At one point, they had cut off her Internet service because of her connection with David," Zimmerman said.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051119/ap_on_re_us/parents_slain_relationship_2
 
  • #257
Lawyer says video will show Pa. teen didn't kidnap girl



Videotape from surveillance cameras will show that a man charged with killing his girlfriend's parents didn't kidnap the girl when he took her from Pennsylvania to Indiana, his attorneys said Friday.

David Ludwig told his attorneys that the way he and Kara Borden acted at various stops on their 600-mile drive ''will serve to negate'' allegations he kidnapped her, his attorneys wrote in court papers.

Ludwig, 18, is being held without bail on murder and kidnapping charges after being flown back to Lancaster County on Tuesday from Indiana, where police captured him following a chase.

...

Police found the movie Sunday on a laptop computer in Ludwig's home in Lititz, the affidavit said. The new search warrant sought computer and video equipment.

In the court filing, Ludwig's attorneys said they wanted investigators to preserve evidence in Ludwig's wallet, such as receipts from their journey, so that surveillance video could be obtained.

''Without said receipts, it will be difficult or impossible to determine the various westbound stops,'' attorneys James Gratton and Merrill Spahn wrote.

Gratton read a statement to The Associated Press in which he said, ''We want to make sure all evidence of exactly what happened here is preserved.'' He declined to answer questions.

Ludwig's attorneys also want a judge to order prosecutors to preserve information from the teens' Web sites and images and text messages from their cell phones, computers and personal digital assistants.

A judge deferred action on the requests until Monday.


http://www.reporter-times.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=28266&format=html
 
  • #258
So if she left willingly, does that mean she wasn't being held against her will and could've been arrested for harboring a fugitive?? Or whatever that's called??



Lawyer says video will show Pa. teen didn't kidnap girl
http://www.reporter-times.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=28266&format=html


From the story:
Videotape from surveillance cameras will show that a man charged with killing his girlfriend's parents didn't kidnap the girl when he took her from Pennsylvania to Indiana, his attorneys said Friday.

David Ludwig told his attorneys that the way he and Kara Borden acted at various stops on their 600-mile drive ''will serve to negate'' allegations he kidnapped her, his attorneys wrote in court papers.
 
  • #259
I think its more to do with the charges against Ludwig....the kidnapping charge is an "enhancement" charge and if found to be true ups the ante. I think his defense attorney would like to "see" that kidnapping charge go away.
 
  • #260
PrayersForMaura said:
So if she left willingly, does that mean she wasn't being held against her will and could've been arrested for harboring a fugitive?? Or whatever that's called??



Lawyer says video will show Pa. teen didn't kidnap girl
http://www.reporter-times.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=28266&format=html


From the story:
Videotape from surveillance cameras will show that a man charged with killing his girlfriend's parents didn't kidnap the girl when he took her from Pennsylvania to Indiana, his attorneys said Friday.

David Ludwig told his attorneys that the way he and Kara Borden acted at various stops on their 600-mile drive ''will serve to negate'' allegations he kidnapped her, his attorneys wrote in court papers.
the operative word here is
HIS ATTORNEYS-what would anyone expect from them
he isnt going to admit it
and he is going to want to minimize the terror factor

I think the most telling part of this is that she has been released without any conditions such as bail..
I dont see that happen very often if there is even a shred of evidence to support involvement in a crime
Usually they hold the person and release them months later..this is natural for him to say now-but u can be afraid to make any moves no matter what it looks like to the outside.
remember pedophile duncan-she was afraid to ask for help too
just by virtue of what she had witnessed
its a lot more complicated than it can look
 

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