PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

  • #361
<Kara willingly betrayed her parents, her church, herself at every opportunity.

Behaving like a tramp is not inevitable just because you're in your teens. She may have been manipulated into a relationship with this young man, but she still could have said NO (either at the point of having sex, sending nude photos, or going with him after he murdered her parents in cold blood).>

EXACTLY!! :clap:
 
  • #362
According to authorities, Ludwig and Michael Borden got into a 30- to 45-minute argument in which the father said Ludwig was no longer allowed to see his 14-year-old daughter, Kara. Ludwig told authorities he went to the home armed with multiple weapons, according to the court papers.

The girl "observed the defendant pull out a gun and shoot her father," the document says. "As she fled from the house, [she] then saw the defendant turn and point his gun towards her mother."

The affidavit also says that Kara told a Lancaster County sheriff's detective "at no time did the defendant force her to go with him after he shot and killed her parents. Rather, she acknowledged going with him 'of her own free will.' "

Prosecutors allege that Kara told Ludwig that "she wanted to stay with him, and they drove west with the intent to 'get as far away as possible, get married and start a new life.' "

Ludwig allegedly told authorities he decided to shoot his girlfriend's parents when the father said he could no longer see Kara. He told authorities he "drew the pistol and shot her dad in the back as he was going down the hallway to the front door."

"I pulled the gun when I stood up, took two steps down the hallway and fired. His back was towards me," Ludwig is quoted as saying. He then said he went to the living room and shot Cathryn Borden as "she was sitting in the chair," according to the court documents.

He told authorities he couldn't find Kara immediately after the shootings and drove around briefly looking for her. He went about 15 feet before he saw Kara "running down the road towards him," the court papers say.

The fugitive couple were eventually found in Indiana nearly 600 miles from their homes after a high-speed chase. Inside his father's 1998 red Volkswagen Jetta, authorities retrieved a .40-caliber Glock semiautomatic pistol that Ludwig said he used in the killings, according to an affidavit from Indiana prosecutors.

The Pennsylvania affidavit stated that Kara's sister, Katelyn, also witnessed her father's death. She locked herself in the bathroom after Ludwig opened fire, police said.

Kara's 9-year-old brother, David, also was in the home and ran to a neighbor's house to summon help, police said last week.

Indiana police found two other guns along with the Glock that investigators said was used to kill the Bordens -- a Ruger .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol and a Ruger .223-caliber mini-rifle -- and ammunition inside the car. A second search two days later also turned up a Colt .45-caliber pistol, 45 bullets and a holster, the documents state.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/21/parents.slain/
 
  • #363
The way I see it is Ludwig finally got his opportunity to fulfill his fantasy.....he had been scheming, dreaming, planning this very situation for a good while it seems....he isn't becoming a psychopath....he is already your full-blown garden variety.....only his young age is what is so startling....to state so matter of factly to police how you go into someone's house and intentionally murder people is very frightening and disturbing to comprehend.....IMO

I am of the opinion today that some kids, Kara included, live their lives as if they are starring in a hollywood movie....they have no concept of what is real and what is fantasy.....a split second bad decision and the REALITY of the situation will slam you up against the wall quicker than the director can say CUT...only problem is the soap opera characters in "real life" will never be coming back from the dead to star in next week's episode......how sad for Kara and her siblings..:(
 
  • #364
i agree, and i believe that so much of this is due to total immersement in the modern "entertainment" industry-- violent/explicitly sexual music, movies & video games.... and now the internet, which is a pandora's box to young naive kids... add "hanging out at the mall" to that list, with little structure and "nothing to do" outside of school... and you have a recipe for disaster, or at least an unfufilling, vapid, materialistic life.

the weird thing about this case is how these 2 teens were supposedly busy with church, sports and other group activities with other supposedly upstanding young kids, and supposedly had 2 stable, very traditional parents that were right there guiding them... and they weren't even exposed to the horrors (both real- and imagined in the parents' minds, i.e. "the refusal to teach intelligent design"...(!)) of modern public schools.

just goes to show how these things in our society can STILL reach kids no matter how sheltered they are.
 
  • #365
If David had been in public school, he would have still shot the parents and perhaps planned a school shooting. He's a bad seed. I don't care where he was planted. I have been waiting for someone to blame home schooling for this tragedy. And I really don't see a link. Maybe permissive parenting.
 
  • #366
KatherineQ said:
No, CP, I don't think you can be charged with a crime if a girl sends nude pictures of herself to you.

To commit a crime, you have to act yourself, not be the recipient of someone else's inappropriate behavior.
If that were the case, LE wouldn't be able to arrest the perverts that they catch dowloading child 🤬🤬🤬🤬 - which they do.
 
  • #367
reb said:
i'm not surprised at all,, in fact i suspected this all along. as katherineQ says, she is "frighteningly hollow" and one has to wonder,, with such a supposedly loving, close and traditional family how did she become this way?

and it's obvious the both of them are not too bright. (leaving to go far away and start a family? uh,,,, how? and you have witnesses to your murders, idiot.)

but (i do agree with those who say---) sorry, but at age 14 you know what is right and what is wrong,, unless you are brain damaged, developmentally retarded, or seriously mentally ill. i don't care how many hormones you have raging, or how pliable your young, confused mind is.... DON'T tell me that you're going to stand there and have your boyfriend murder your parents in cold blood and then say you didn't know right from wrong. she wasn't brainwahsed, nor was she in an abusive situation.
I think we're going to find out some less than "loving, close traditional family values" information about both families involved in this case.
I really have to wonder what religion the Bordens were invovled in, if they felt the need to home school in one of the most conservative religious communities in America. The public schools in Lancaster are full of Amish, Mennonites, Brethern, Lutherans--not to mention the usual Baptists and the like. And there are plenty of conservative private schools as well. I think we're going to discover control was higher on the agenda than piety.
 
  • #368
behaving like a tramp...those in glass houses should not throw stones..you have no idea if she was a tramp except thru your definition..honestly-i have no idea where u are getting your information.
There is nothing to indicate she is a tramp-just a girl-and crazy about one boy..give me a break.

As well-noone knows that happened-when all is said and done-then we will see what part she played if any. I am just saddened by the glee in the voices of those who think she is evil personified.

Before you all get so riteous just remember the universe has a way of showing the high and mighty a lesson - yours could be at your doorstep any moment.
 
  • #369
ThoughtFox said:
OK - What I'm about to say might make some people angry, but I'm just writing from my own experiences in my own community.

I live in an area with ALOT of homeschooling going on. The vast majority of people who homeschool are great folks, and I even have a cousin who homeschools because she thought her son wasn't getting enough attention at school.

More power to anyone who has the patience to do it! Homeschooling also works well in helping kids get great scholarships for college, due to the fact that they have more time to work on extra projects, write essays, etc.

But there is a flip side to the whole scenario, and I think this case is a textbook example.

Lots of people homeschool so their children will be "sheltered" from other "types" of children. There is prejudice involved, and sometimes fear of their children "losing their religion" by going to public schools.

I don't think you can say this happened to a "traditional" family. My kids have a traditional family - two parents, three kids, and a stay-at-home Mom. But my kids aren't isolated from the rabble of society, and I wouldn't want them to be.

And the sad truth is that many homeschoolers are isolated from normal teenage interactions. Often the parents want it that way, so they can stay in control.

That is one reason this beautiful girl knew just one or two boys. The very first report I read about this case talked of a Homeschooling "Network." I'm familiar with how that works: there might be one parent who wants to teach history and has had good results with passing the state tests on that subject. So the homeschoolers meet at that person's house. They also network for fieldtrips, musical things or plays, math tutorials, etc.

Basically, homeschoolers don't always mix with people in their own neighborhoods. I know of two or three families within walking distance of my home who are homeschool families. They allow their children only very limited contact with other children - it's almost abusive, but it's legal. They might let their children play at another kids house, maybe once a month, and I'm not exaggerating.

I believe these kids were not living a normal life.

It may come out that this young sociopath who shot the parents has had troubles since he was young - perhaps that factored into why they parents decided to homeschool him in the first place. I think this boy had been indoctrinated to be "us against them," and hence, that is why his family had 54 weapons in their home. What were they expecting? A SWAT team attack at any moment? :doh:

I believe the parents thought they were in control of the girl's life, too, yet they weren't watching her Internet Activities, were they? Why shelter a child all her life, but let her post her picture on the Internet? It astonishes me!

I'm not blaming the victims for their deaths, I assure you. It sounds as if they thought they could reason with this boy. But the evil in him didn't just rise up all of a sudden - the reports of his film-making activities, planning violent raids and "patrols," dark clothes and maps, and his lying to more than one girl in the name of God, all point to a kid who had way, way too much time on his hands. He had learned to be a good little hypocrite, and use his "church speak" to gain the trust of young girls.

Why did the girl follow him down the road? And why was he more important to her than her parents and siblings? I have no idea, but it shows a certain obsession, doesn't it? My gosh - what next in this story?
That is what I have been trying to explain to others, but since some people here have dogs in the fight, they get defensive really quick. There is a definite element to homsechooling,e specially done under the name of religion, that is all about control and nothing about educating your child.
I lived in Lancaster for 3 tedious years. It is a VERY conservative religious community with virtually nothing for teenagers to do except underage drinking, drug use & getting pregnant. The fact these families felt the need to home school in a community with public schools that serve the Amish, Mennonites & Brethern raises red flags. An off-hand quote from a neighbor of the Bordens talking about how his kids had been friends with their kids for 9 years, but had never stepped inside the house, was also rather odd. And now there are stories of how her father was adamant about his daughter not dating, not just an 18 year old but even boys her own age is troubling. When it all finally shakes out, we may very well discover there was more control than love involved on all sides of this story.
 
  • #370
Ella said:
If David had been in public school, he would have still shot the parents and perhaps planned a school shooting. He's a bad seed. I don't care where he was planted. I have been waiting for someone to blame home schooling for this tragedy. And I really don't see a link. Maybe permissive parenting.
Probably not. He might have had a girlfriend his own age and be allowed to express himself openly, not feel like he had to hide his feelings and express them only to other kids who were hiding their emerging adult "true selves' from their families, who were determiedn to keep them in the role of children for the rest of their lives.
 
  • #371
newtv said:
behaving like a tramp...those in glass houses should not throw stones..you have no idea if she was a tramp except thru your definition..honestly-i have no idea where u are getting your information.
There is nothing to indicate she is a tramp-just a girl-and crazy about one boy..give me a break.

As well-noone knows that happened-when all is said and done-then we will see what part she played if any. I am just saddened by the glee in the voices of those who think she is evil personified.

Before you all get so riteous just remember the universe has a way of showing the high and mighty a lesson - yours could be at your doorstep any moment.
THANK THE LORD!...............thank you Newtv - you took the words right out of my mouth!!! :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
 
  • #372
We have four daughters and none of them were allowed to date until they were 16. I don't think home schooling had anything to do with this. I don't blame the families either. Like someone else said, he was a bad seed.

Too bad they didn't react differently from his previous incident and not just try to heal it through the church. From what I've seen, if it hadn't been this family, it would have been another. He was he!! bent on trouble. It was just a matter of 'who.' I don't know if there were any other signs of his disturbing attitude with his parents. I just don't know.

JMHO
fran
 
  • #373
There has been a huge exodus from public schools in the last ten years. The number of home schoolers in this nation is in the MILLIONS. People home school for a variety of reasons but the number one reason is the failure of the public schools to educate children. And when a public school has a "problem", a teacher they suspect of improper behavior, they are not allowed by the union to fire that teacher. The "problem" goes from school to school. I know of a school district that had to give the superintendent $175,000 severance pay after he was caught with an underage prostitute.
I don't know why these families decided to home school. But my concern would be the parents that did not offer serious consequences to a boy who is out of control. I am a Christian but sorry or not...you do the crime you do the time. I forgive you...but it does not erase the consequences of your actions.
 
  • #374
jannuncutt said:
If that were the case, LE wouldn't be able to arrest the perverts that they catch dowloading child 🤬🤬🤬🤬 - which they do.

Jann - downloading child 🤬🤬🤬🤬 is a different thing than someone creating photos of themselves and sending them to you. I can't imagine how someone could be convicted of owning a computer, and someone else sending them pictures of themselves.
 
  • #375
KatherineQ said:
Jann - downloading child 🤬🤬🤬🤬 is a different thing than someone creating photos of themselves and sending them to you. I can't imagine how someone could be convicted of owning a computer, and someone else sending them pictures of themselves.
did u not read the law that someone posted?
yes- u can be charged for all things illegal if the child sending it is a minor-u cannot possess it.
 
  • #376
NewTv - then, we're all responsible for whatever 🤬🤬🤬🤬 is unopened in our email box? I don't believe it, sorry I just don't.

I don't believe I'm guilty for what is in there. I didn't ask for it, I don't want it, it's on my computer.
 
  • #377
jannuncutt said:
THANK THE LORD!...............thank you Newtv - you took the words right out of my mouth!!! :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
everytime I read the villianious description of this girl vs the focus being on the killer I shake my head
this young man just needs 12 riteous females on his jury and he will walk and she will burn at the steak..
there is no way on gods earth she influenced him to kill-he had that plan before he even knew her-with another family
what stopped him?? The traffic was tooheavy and they thot they would be caught..NOT- they did not think it was a good idea after consideration.

Now her background- BIG 🤬🤬🤬🤬 AT 14..behaves in a seductive manner-sends seductive pictures of herself to a boy-wants to experiment with sex - wants to marry the guy she is having sex with..sounds typical to me.
I would hate to live in a world where the riteous have their way-we would all be in chastity belts and covered from head to toe-
What about the boys? I dont live out the double standard.
A girl having sex with one boy at a time and to the extent she wants to marry him is not the description of a tramp or a 🤬🤬🤬🤬.
I wonder if those who call her a tramp had sex before marriage?? I find it hard to believe anyone did not-so I guess we are all tramps..anyone having sex with someone they wanted to marry is condemed for life by the riteous..do u condemn yourselves too.

To the riteous and those who dictate the norms:
And dont give me the age u had sex was different and that justifies it-if she is a tramp we are all tramps.
 
  • #378
Not to change the subject but where's all the e-mail 🤬🤬🤬🤬 coming from? Nobody sends me 🤬🤬🤬🤬 in my inbox-is it just because I'm always out of the loop?:waitasec:

Becca
 
  • #379
beakiebean said:
Not to change the subject but where's all the e-mail 🤬🤬🤬🤬 coming from? Nobody sends me 🤬🤬🤬🤬 in my inbox-is it just because I'm always out of the loop?:waitasec:

Becca

I don't know, Becca. We get all kinds of spam email - some Rx med stuff, some money scams, and some 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 spam. Some of it is clearly titled - Underage girls nude, stuff like that, I don't open it, I don't touch it, I just leave it there and let it scroll to the top. (Frankly, I'm kind of scared of it. Who knows what's in there, or even what viruses?) I have it, and I don't think there's a 1 in a million chance I'm committing a crime by ignoring it.
 
  • #380
For Crying Out Loud - I feel like I am might be from another planet! When I referenced child 🤬🤬🤬🤬 I was using it as an example of e-mail that you can be arrested for receiving. It is one of the ways LE has of finding pedophiles. I am not talking about spam. :doh:
 

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