PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

  • #381
jannuncutt said:
For Crying Out Loud - I feel like I am might be from another planet! When I referenced child 🤬🤬🤬🤬 I was using it as an example of e-mail that you can be arrested for receiving. It is one of the ways LE has of finding pedophiles. I am not talking about spam. :doh:

Jann - what we were talking about originally, is if a girl sends you a nude/provacative picture of herself, did you commit a crime.

I say no. If you BUY it, or ORDER it, then yes.

If you are just a recipient of someone taking a photo of themselves and sending it to you, no. No you are not committing a crime.

Of course, I could be wrong. ;D
 
  • #382
When I was growing up they used to call girls that age "fresh". I was called that. I wasn't perfect but, I was far from bad and, I resented being called that - because it was baseless. I realize now, that those old biddies who called me that were probably doing so because they were probably ashamed of their own "youthful indiscretions". I realized, long ago, that I would rather have a man for an enemy that a woman anyday - because its easier.
 
  • #383
newtv said:
To the riteous and those who dictate the norms:
And dont give me the age u had sex was different and that justifies it-if she is a tramp we are all tramps.


What exactly is a "riteous"? MOST puzzling. And by dictating the norms, do you mean Hollywood? The Music Industry?
 
  • #384
Lawyer: Girl Had No Role in Parents' Slay

LANCASTER, Pa. — A 14-year-old girl who ran off with her boyfriend after he allegedly shot her parents to death did not know that he was going to kill them, her lawyer said Tuesday.
"Absolutely not," the attorney, Robert Beyer, said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

Beyer spoke out a day after prosecutors said Kara Borden had fled willingly with David Ludwig. He said Borden had no role in the shootings of her parents, Michael and Cathryn Borden, inside their Lititz home on Nov. 13.

"It's Ludwig's case, not hers," he said. "All she is, is a witness. And a victim to the extent that her parents were killed."

Beyer declined to discuss the case further.

On Monday, prosecutors announced that they would drop kidnapping charges against Ludwig after interviews with both Ludwig and Borden determined she had gone with him voluntarily. The case had initially been treated as an abduction.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176343,00.html
 
  • #385
Lawyer: Girl Had No Role in Parents' Slay

LANCASTER, Pa. — A 14-year-old girl who ran off with her boyfriend after he allegedly shot her parents to death did not know that he was going to kill them, her lawyer said Tuesday.
"Absolutely not," the attorney, Robert Beyer, said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

Beyer spoke out a day after prosecutors said Kara Borden had fled willingly with David Ludwig. He said Borden had no role in the shootings of her parents, Michael and Cathryn Borden, inside their Lititz home on Nov. 13.

"It's Ludwig's case, not hers," he said. "All she is, is a witness. And a victim to the extent that her parents were killed."

Beyer declined to discuss the case further.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176343,00.html
 
  • #386
What an awful story. I feel so sorry for her siblings b/c first they have the pain of losing a parent to deal with and the fact that their sister was an accesory of sorts. I do feel for kara as well b/c once she is alone for a while to think about what she has done it will destroy her, she is 14 and her actions have ruined her family and her life and she has to live with what she has done and I have no doubt that she will be remorseful one day. She does deserve a fitting punishment though.
 
  • #387
At 14 a girl has usually just graduated from dolls. She is recieving some higher doses of hormones. She has learned if she dresses in certain ways then those mysterious creatures called boys look at her and smiles at her. Those little boys they played house with, become shy and awkward when they smile. And they become nice and give her attention. Their girlfriends have boyfriends. They talk about them. A lot! They talk about all the boys, and who is wearing what, and who said what, and who did what. They are learning to distinguish what is cool, and what isn't. Boyfriends are cool. Movies are cool. Music is cool. Being an adult is cool. They aren't sure what happens with boys, but since sex is cool they are eager to experience it (and they are starting to get a push from those hormones). But a good girl doesn't have sex unless she is in love and wants to get married. So if they want to have sex with someone, then they must be in love and want to get married.

I am an adult now. But I remember being 14. I remember looking at boys and wanting a boyfriend. Badly. But I was too shy. And not really sure how to get a boyfriend. That was many years ago. Now there are movies about it, music about it, magazines about, and it is discussed more openly. Girls are maturing physically earlier, whether we want them to or not. They spend an awful lot of their time thinking about these things, whether we want them to or not. But to them, it is sort of like playing house. They still haven't grasped the realities yet.
Now this 14 year old. She gets an 18 year old boyfriend. She must really be something, cause he loves her. They have sex, so they must be in love. They want to get married. Her parents are standing in the way of true love. She knows it is true love because he is grown up enough to come to her house and argue with her parents, in order to keep her.
Then in a warped moment of time, her parents are shot and her world is changing........what will happen to her, who will love her? Her parents are dead, and her boyfriend is leaving. The realities are overwhelming. They can't be dead, and he can't be leaving her. But he loves her doesn't he? That is why all this happened. He shot her parent's, but that can't be real, he didn't mean to. He couldn't have meant to. What will he do now? What will she do now?
She is 14. She believes in playing house. She believes that true love conquer's all.
 
  • #388
docwho3 said:
I do feel compassion but at the same time I think there may well be some legal consequences to this young lady's actions. It will be interesting to learn more of their relationship to see if this was an equal partnership or was one dominant and one submissive and if so who was which.

I will be following this case closely because I want to know if she did in fact become a partner in a coldblooded murder plot and if so I want to try to understand the factors that went into their thinking as it may help in future cases and hopefully someday society can find ways to read warning signs to head off such events.

Excellent comments, doc!

I have been thinking about this case alot today.

Even at Age 14, you must be responsible for your decisions. That is the pitfall of life and teenage years, to be made responsible when you do wrong. When I was 14, I was caught 'shoplifting' at Kmart with my girlfriends. I scared the sh** out of me, never stray outside the law since! But my point is, even though it doesn't compare to what Kara will have to live with, I had to take responsibility for my actions. Heck, I teach my 7 & 10 year-olds to be responsible for their actions -- that actions have consequences. That is doing your job as a parent.

Why Kara was allowed to use the internet with such freedom is beyond me.

IMO, whatever her involvement, even leaving voluntarily with him from the crime scene, if she is found to be an accomplice of some sort, she should pay the penalty by law. Just as he will by being 18 years old.

She has alot to live with now. That's beside the point.

Thanks for all the great posts. I enjoying reading all of you so much! :blowkiss:

Eli
 
  • #389
mysteriew said:
At 14 a girl has usually just graduated from dolls. She is recieving some higher doses of hormones. She has learned if she dresses in certain ways then those mysterious creatures called boys look at her and smiles at her. Those little boys they played house with, become shy and awkward when they smile. And they become nice and give her attention. Their girlfriends have boyfriends. They talk about them. A lot! They talk about all the boys, and who is wearing what, and who said what, and who did what. They are learning to distinguish what is cool, and what isn't. Boyfriends are cool. Movies are cool. Music is cool. Being an adult is cool. They aren't sure what happens with boys, but since sex is cool they are eager to experience it (and they are starting to get a push from those hormones). But a good girl doesn't have sex unless she is in love and wants to get married. So if they want to have sex with someone, then they must be in love and want to get married.

I am an adult now. But I remember being 14. I remember looking at boys and wanting a boyfriend. Badly. But I was too shy. And not really sure how to get a boyfriend. That was many years ago. Now there are movies about it, music about it, magazines about, and it is discussed more openly. Girls are maturing physically earlier, whether we want them to or not. They spend an awful lot of their time thinking about these things, whether we want them to or not. But to them, it is sort of like playing house. They still haven't grasped the realities yet.
Now this 14 year old. She gets an 18 year old boyfriend. She must really be something, cause he loves her. They have sex, so they must be in love. They want to get married. Her parents are standing in the way of true love. She knows it is true love because he is grown up enough to come to her house and argue with her parents, in order to keep her.
Then in a warped moment of time, her parents are shot and her world is changing........what will happen to her, who will love her? Her parents are dead, and her boyfriend is leaving. The realities are overwhelming. They can't be dead, and he can't be leaving her. But he loves her doesn't he? That is why all this happened. He shot her parent's, but that can't be real, he didn't mean to. He couldn't have meant to. What will he do now? What will she do now?
She is 14. She believes in playing house. She believes that true love conquer's all.

You definately got inside the head of a fourteen year old. It made me remember being that age and all the "playing house" fantasies. Looking for love in all the wrong places. Your post is exactly what I think happened....I don't think she is a Caryl Fugate.It is not because she is a cute surburban teenager it is because most teens are conflicted at some point and if they don't have a direction then they go with fantasies.
 
  • #390
  • #391
mysteriew said:
At 14 a girl has usually just graduated from dolls. She is recieving some higher doses of hormones. She has learned if she dresses in certain ways then those mysterious creatures called boys look at her and smiles at her. Those little boys they played house with, become shy and awkward when they smile. And they become nice and give her attention. Their girlfriends have boyfriends. They talk about them. A lot! They talk about all the boys, and who is wearing what, and who said what, and who did what. They are learning to distinguish what is cool, and what isn't. Boyfriends are cool. Movies are cool. Music is cool. Being an adult is cool. They aren't sure what happens with boys, but since sex is cool they are eager to experience it (and they are starting to get a push from those hormones). But a good girl doesn't have sex unless she is in love and wants to get married. So if they want to have sex with someone, then they must be in love and want to get married.

I am an adult now. But I remember being 14. I remember looking at boys and wanting a boyfriend. Badly. But I was too shy. And not really sure how to get a boyfriend. That was many years ago. Now there are movies about it, music about it, magazines about, and it is discussed more openly. Girls are maturing physically earlier, whether we want them to or not. They spend an awful lot of their time thinking about these things, whether we want them to or not. But to them, it is sort of like playing house. They still haven't grasped the realities yet.
Now this 14 year old. She gets an 18 year old boyfriend. She must really be something, cause he loves her. They have sex, so they must be in love. They want to get married. Her parents are standing in the way of true love. She knows it is true love because he is grown up enough to come to her house and argue with her parents, in order to keep her.
Then in a warped moment of time, her parents are shot and her world is changing........what will happen to her, who will love her? Her parents are dead, and her boyfriend is leaving. The realities are overwhelming. They can't be dead, and he can't be leaving her. But he loves her doesn't he? That is why all this happened. He shot her parent's, but that can't be real, he didn't mean to. He couldn't have meant to. What will he do now? What will she do now?
She is 14. She believes in playing house. She believes that true love conquer's all.

I bet you and I are the same age, or maybe I'm older, Mystery (I'm 46) and certainly there were girls when I was 14 who dated men, and there were girls when my mother was a girl, and girls when my grandmother was a girl, who dated men. There were and are girls who skip right from 13 to 26 and end up with immature men who can't handle girlfriends their own age.

I remember one girl in my 7th grade science class who had a boy friend who was in his 20's, worked in a gas station down the street and he'd come kiss on her between classes. My science teacher Coach Moore chased his butt right out of the school one day. We were kind of amazed, and impressed, because no one had ever chased a young man away from that girl before. No one cared, before Coach Moore, either that she sat there and carved intials into her flesh of boys she was "in love" with.

Memories. Anyway, young teens who are wild have been going out with young men who are immature since the beginning of time. Before TV, for sure.
 
  • #392
KatherineQ said:
I bet you and I are the same age, or maybe I'm older, Mystery (I'm 46) and certainly there were girls when I was 14 who dated men, and there were girls when my mother was a girl, and girls when my grandmother was a girl, who dated men. There were and are girls who skip right from 13 to 26 and end up with immature men who can't handle girlfriends their own age.

I remember one girl in my 7th grade science class who had a boy friend who was in his 20's, worked in a gas station down the street and he'd come kiss on her between classes. My science teacher Coach Moore chased his butt right out of the school one day. We were kind of amazed, and impressed, because no one had ever chased a young man away from that girl before. No one cared, before Coach Moore, either that she sat there and carved intials into her flesh of boys she was "in love" with.

Memories. Anyway, young teens who are wild have been going out with young men who are immature since the beginning of time. Before TV, for sure.

I am a little older than you. And I still remember that age. And I have noticed that what was looked at as wild at that age, is not only not considered wild, it is considered "cool" if not "typical".
I do not blame the parents here. They recognized the inappropriatness of what was happening, the were involved in their child's life and they took steps to try to stop what was happening.
But I also don't blame the girl. She was doing what her hormone's and even her society dictated.
Conflicts over when a teen should start dating are really common. It is just that in this particular case, with this particular guy, it went wrong. Is that their fault?
 
  • #393
PrayersForMaura said:
Lawyer: Girl Had No Role in Parents' Slay

LANCASTER, Pa. — A 14-year-old girl who ran off with her boyfriend after he allegedly shot her parents to death did not know that he was going to kill them, her lawyer said Tuesday.
"Absolutely not," the attorney, Robert Beyer, said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

Beyer spoke out a day after prosecutors said Kara Borden had fled willingly with David Ludwig. He said Borden had no role in the shootings of her parents, Michael and Cathryn Borden, inside their Lititz home on Nov. 13.

"It's Ludwig's case, not hers," he said. "All she is, is a witness. And a victim to the extent that her parents were killed."

Beyer declined to discuss the case further.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176343,00.html
I think that corresponds with David's statement:

"Ludwig allegedly told authorities he decided to shoot his girlfriend's parents when the father said he could no longer see Kara."
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/21/parents.slain/

He didn't say that Kara was part of the decision. Even though he had the gun, it sounds like he did not decide to use it until Kara's dad told him he could not see Kara anymore.

I don't believe that Kara had any knowledge of what was going to happen.

In fact, she ran out of the house when the shooting started.

"As she fled from the house, [she] then saw the defendant turn and point his gun towards her mother."
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/21/parents.slain/
 
  • #394
Hi Cherry Ames,

Welcome to WS as I see you are quite new. :hand:

I think newtv meant righteous, as in 'the best'. She would answer your question like Jack Flash, but I don't think she has seen your post yet!


Scandi
 
  • #395
Ella said:
There has been a huge exodus from public schools in the last ten years. The number of home schoolers in this nation is in the MILLIONS. People home school for a variety of reasons but the number one reason is the failure of the public schools to educate children. And when a public school has a "problem", a teacher they suspect of improper behavior, they are not allowed by the union to fire that teacher. The "problem" goes from school to school. I know of a school district that had to give the superintendent $175,000 severance pay after he was caught with an underage prostitute.
I don't know why these families decided to home school. But my concern would be the parents that did not offer serious consequences to a boy who is out of control. I am a Christian but sorry or not...you do the crime you do the time. I forgive you...but it does not erase the consequences of your actions.
They don't have any problems busting & firing the teachers where I live when they're caught doing illicit stuff with underage kids-and some stuff that isn't illicit, either.

My sister homeschooled her son for awhile, and was probably better set up to do it than others, since she was a former college teacher. But she stopped because it was eatting her life alive, since she worked out of the house as well, and wasn't helping with her son's socialization problems, which were the reason she took him out of school in the first place. She almost never left the house. And she's divorced.
It will be 30 years before we find out if homeschooling is better than public schools, or simply creates an entirely different set of problems.
But people who are homeschooling tend to have so much invested in the subject, for various reasons, I tend to suspect their objectivity.
 
  • #396
I believe Kara's father was a very controlling person. Otherwise why was the mother in a chair with a blanket over her legs and not involved? Where was Kara in her room hiding? Something is still not right here. I think they are both telling lies! They had plenty of time to make up a story! Hopefully someday all will know the truth!
 
  • #397
again, i don't see the big deal that kara's mother was sitting in a chair whe n she was shot. hasn't anyone here ever had (or seen) a long, exhausting argument where one person finally gets tired, sits down, and might put a blanket over their legs? (and maybe she was cold??)
it seems that he shot the father so fast, and came in for the mother right after, the mother was probably too in shock and scared to move from the chair.
IMHO, i do't think that has much significance really, i think she was just tired of the whole fight, since apparently they had been arguing with him for a long time.
 
  • #398
Cherry Ames said:
What exactly is a "riteous"? MOST puzzling. And by dictating the norms, do you mean Hollywood? The Music Industry?
dont ask me-ask those who say they can define it- apparently this girl is outside the norm-ask them not me
 
  • #399
reb said:
again, i don't see the big deal that kara's mother was sitting in a chair whe n she was shot. hasn't anyone here ever had (or seen) a long, exhausting argument where one person finally gets tired, sits down, and might put a blanket over their legs? (and maybe she was cold??)
it seems that he shot the father so fast, and came in for the mother right after, the mother was probably too in shock and scared to move from the chair.
IMHO, i do't think that has much significance really, i think she was just tired of the whole fight, since apparently they had been arguing with him for a long time.

I absolutely agree with you.

I sit with a blanket over me ALL the time in the cold winter months. So do the rest of my family. And we have for years and years.

The mother didn't have time and/or was terrified and had not moved yet. That's My Opinion.

14 years old is old enough to take responsibility for your actions. Kara needs to be held responsible for her actions after-the-fact. I do feel some sorrow for her, but she went willingly knowing her parents were dead. I agree with someone who said she will have a very troubled life ..... :(

Eli
 
  • #400
She is very much in the norm although it equates horror with parents. This has been going on for a long time. Whether a parent chooses to recognize or they will fall under the umbrella it is still something that has to be dealt with. One needs to recognize the pain whether it is real or imagined it is real to a young person.
 

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