Found Deceased PA - Paul Kochu, 22, Allegheny County, 17 Dec 2014 - #2

[heartgoesout]

Here's the difference, the first quote is how it appears on the flyer.
"Around midnight, he went back to his apartment after cutting his hand on a water glass. His roommates returned home to help him"...

Here it is with MY added punctuation.
"Around midnight, he went back to his apartment. After cutting his hand on a water glass, his roommates returned home to help him"...

 

[heartgoesout]

snipped by me from Det Klimpt: "You're kidding, right? There are direct quotes from one or both of the roommates that say he went home, cut his hand, and then called them to come home and assist. I am sure this information has been verified by LE. I believe the roommates and it sounds like you may not."

Just because they are direct quotes from the roommates does not make them fact.
We really don't know what LE has verified.
It's ok to disagree Det Klimpt.

 

[Criminal Justice mom]

I continue to put my focus on WHERE he was headed on foot after he left the house. The incidents (back story, if you will) that took place prior may shed light on WHY he left, but I don’t think if we know why it would help us figure out what happened to him.

If Paul was trying to get away from a dangerous situation, he would have driven his car. Agree? There is a reason he set out on foot rather than driving. Why is the question. Earlier I thought that it was because he needed one hand to put pressure on the other to stop the bleeding; thus, he couldn’t hold the steering wheel. Walking to the hospital, as impractical as that may be, is all I can come up with. I do not think he just walked out of the house in a huff and was walking off anger or frustration. For one thing, his family has written on FB a few times that Paul did not like the cold. Therefore, I don’t think he would be out walking in it needlessly.

LE is not treating Paul’s disappearance due to foul play (moo). If they, were, the case would not have grown cool. Not saying this is a cold case, but I don’t think LE is putting much effort into locating him.

Taking information from old, and various, news articles and writings will give you some incorrect information. Some articles put their own spin on things, changing the wording and often ending up with errors and inaccuracy. Most (if not all) of the information coming from the parents was gotten from the roommates.

The first reporting of Paul's disappearance mentioned that there was an argument at the bar and that is why Paul left (intoxicated). I can't find the link to that information on the web anymore. That information was relayed by the roommates to the parents. Then the parents mentioned it in interviews, using their own words that changed the meaning a little bit. The aunt, who gets her information likely from her sister (Paul's mother) talks about 'tempers needing to cool' (or something to that effect). Then some of you take that and run with it, thinking there was some heated and maybe physical thing going on between all of these guys. My point in all this rambling is that I think some people are relying on poor sources of information and not verifying what is fact and what is not.

Maybe he didn't have his car keys or wasn't able to get his keys for whatever reason, to take his car. I can't remember if it was said or not if his car keys were found at his apartment or not. Regardless, even if his keys WERE later seen at the apartment, it doesn't mean that they were available and accessible to Paul that night, or early am as he was needing to leave. Or, conversely, if the keys were not found at Paul 's apartment, that does not automatically mean he had/has them with him. Many people seem to assume that just because he had a car, it meant that he had full access to drive it. But, isn't it possible that if someone were for whatever reason trying to stop Paul from driving his car or leaving at all, they could have taken and hidden or with held his keys? Then... if they were recovered at his apartment, after his reported disappearance, simply put them back when it was obvious he had left or was no longer trying to get the keys to leave? Or, if they remain missing, have disposed of them to make it appear as though Paul must have them with him?

 

[Criminal Justice mom]

Here's the difference, the first quote is how it appears on the flyer.
"Around midnight, he went back to his apartment after cutting his hand on a water glass. His roommates returned home to help him"...

Here it is with MY added punctuation.
"Around midnight, he went back to his apartment. After cutting his hand on a water glass, his roommates returned home to help him"...

You make an excellent point about the difference in good reporting and the extreme importance in using proper punctuation when publishing a report, especially one that is giving key details and different recollections from witnesses in a situation such as this. I've always been highly disgusted when I read any so called "professional" publication, news paper article or report with blatant mistakes. Isn't editing and proper grammer a requirement in journalism?

 

[heartgoesout]

Agreed. Makes it difficult to believe anything. Love that saying. "Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear."
In this case, believe half of what you read...

 

[Saccas85]

Again, being a local, everyone walks everywhere in South Side. Parking is terrible, unless you have an assigned space. I believe the reason he left is either to blow off steam, calm down, relax, etc.. OR to meet someone. I don't see anyone walking to any hospital in that location. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Detective Klimpt]

Here's the difference, the first quote is how it appears on the flyer.
"Around midnight, he went back to his apartment after cutting his hand on a water glass. His roommates returned home to help him"...

Here it is with MY added punctuation.
"Around midnight, he went back to his apartment. After cutting his hand on a water glass, his roommates returned home to help him"...

Your added punctuation makes it what I believe to be correct. The poster is written poorly then, correct? There were errors on the early poster as well, moo.

Just because they are direct quotes from the roommates does not make them fact.
We really don't know what LE has verified.
It's ok to disagree Det Klimpt.

Don't you think it is more reasonable to believe the quoted roommates that to go thinking way outside the box based on no verifiable information? Occam's razor, Heartgoesout.

I don't see anyone walking to any hospital in that location. It just doesn't make sense.

The Mercy Hospital is right across the 10th street bridge. Not that far in walking distance. Silly to walk instead of drive there, yes. Even the family early on suggested that Paul was walking to a friend/relative at Duquesne, which is right across the 10th street bridge. Walking around in the cold with a bleeding hand to 'blow off steam' doesn't make sense to me.

 

[TMAN2014]

I look at this case differently than some of the posters in this topic.

I see it as a missing persons case, with only a few true facts given out. The video after 2:30 AM is one of those few facts.

Detective Klimpt, do you know any of the roommates? You sure are quick to believe their words, even though they had an argument with Paul that night. Why should a neutral observer of this case just accept their quotes as gospel?

 

[Detective Klimpt]

I look at this case differently than some of the posters in this topic.

I see it as a missing persons case, with only a few true facts given out. The video after 2:30 AM is one of those few facts.

Detective Klimpt, do you know any of the roommates? You sure are quick to believe their words, even though they had an argument with Paul that night. Why should a neutral observer of this case just accept their quotes as gospel?

No I do not know any of the players in this case. TMAN, tell me this. You and some others believe they had an argument that night. Guess how that information was gotten. It was from the roommates. Most, if not all, you hear from the parents has come from the roommates. Only the roommates (or maybe those at the bar) know if there was an argument.

I think as sleuthers we each have our own feelings about people, how we interpret information, and what have you. Some people are just way out there in ridiculous theories, imo.

If people aren't going to believe the roommates, then what details do we have to discuss? None.

 

[Treelights]

No I do not know any of the players in this case. TMAN, tell me this. You and some others believe they had an argument that night. Guess how that information was gotten. It was from the roommates. Most, if not all, you hear from the parents has come from the roommates. Only the roommates (or maybe those at the bar) know if there was an argument.

I think as sleuthers we each have our own feelings about people, how we interpret information, and what have you. Some people are just way out there in ridiculous theories, imo.

If people aren't going to believe the roommates, then what details do we have to discuss? None.

Thing is, if having an argument was gotten from the roommates, do you have a MSM link that states the roommates said
there was an argument with Paul and the roommates?

IMOO.

 

[Treelights]

I look at this case differently than some of the posters in this topic.

I see it as a missing persons case, with only a few true facts given out. The video after 2:30 AM is one of those few facts.

Detective Klimpt, do you know any of the roommates? You sure are quick to believe their words, even though they had an argument with Paul that night. Why should a neutral observer of this case just accept their quotes as gospel?

Is there a specific quote in MSM from the roommates that state the roommates had an argument with Paul?

IMOO.

 

[Treelights]

If there aren't any MSM links to the roommates saying there was an argument with Paul, then where is it coming from?

Did the verified insider to Paul Kochu say there was an argument?

Did the non verified poster from the first thread say it?

Where is it coming from?

It is possible it may be true and it is possible it may not be true.

Where is the information coming from?

In order to have facts to this case presented correctly, that isn't rumor, we can submit links to MSM articles.
I haven't seen an article yet in MSM that precisely says that Paul and his roommates had a disagreement/argument.

IMOO.

 

[TMAN2014]

No I do not know any of the players in this case. TMAN, tell me this. You and some others believe they had an argument that night. Guess how that information was gotten. It was from the roommates. Most, if not all, you hear from the parents has come from the roommates. Only the roommates (or maybe those at the bar) know if there was an argument.

I think as sleuthers we each have our own feelings about people, how we interpret information, and what have you. Some people are just way out there in ridiculous theories, imo.

If people aren't going to believe the roommates, then what details do we have to discuss? None.

We are left to theorize what we think happened, based on the little facts that we have. Sorry, but I don't agree that translates into we have to believe what the roommates say. In my book, they are not out of the loop of potential suspects, if foul play occurred, just by admitting an argument occurred earlier in the night. If anything, it raises eyebrows.

Also, I just want to say I have a hard time with some of the negative comments made about Paul's family on what they post on their site. I don't know any of them either. I am just a neutral observer of this case, trying to keep an open mind. There seems to be a lot of sentiment to protect the friends, while some animosity towards the victims.

If I am in the minority, that is fine. And if I am off base, I apologize. I am just posting my general thoughts that I get from reading this topic.

 

[Detective Klimpt]

Is there a specific quote in MSM from the roommates that state the roommates had an argument with Paul?

IMOO.

Some of the early links on this case are no longer found on the web and we no longer have Thread#1 that had a lot of them. I can't say for certain if there was a direct quote from the roomies about an argument. I remember reading it right after he went missing. I remember reading that the roommates said he left the bar because of an argument/disagreement and he was intoxicated. For me, it isn't relevant to the case anyway. Paul's dad mentioned it in this video and there is a direct quote. How do you think he got this information about the argument? From the roomies, either directly or indirectly.

http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/police-missing-22-year-old-last-seen-south-side/njWYJ/
“Paul declined because he was in disagreement in something that had happened earlier in the night. So he stayed here. They went to get something to eat -- we don't know where. But when they came home, Paul was gone,” said Jack Kochu.


Now some people have taken this argument thing and spun it into something really nefarious.

Also, I just want to say I have a hard time with some of the negative comments made about Paul's family on what they post on their site. I don't know any of them either. I am just a neutral observer of this case, trying to keep an open mind. There seems to be a lot of sentiment to protect the friends, while some animosity towards the victims.

I don't see animosity toward Paul or his family nor special sentiment to protect the friends. Where does the victim list end, Tman? Does it include aunts and uncles and cousins? Maybe the friends are victims too. If there is something incorrect or weird written on FindPaul FB, I don't see why it is a problem to note it.

We saw Paul on video at almost 3am. Whether he was intoxicated, hand bleeding, head injury, collasped lung, beat up by the roommates and all the other possibilities people have, the fact is that he was headed somewhere and ended up somewhere. To consider the roommates went out at 3am, grabbed Paul and did something with him is just zero possiblity imo. Whatever happened to him prior to that video is irrelevant to finding him. moo

 

[TMAN2014]

Where does the victim list end? I think all his family are victims. Could the friends be victims? Yeah, they can, but at this time, I don't think any scenario can be ruled out. Am I crazy for still keeping foul play as a possibility, given an early altercation in the evening? I don't think so, but maybe you guys think I am off base.

Re the FindPaul site
Who decides what is weird? To one person, anything religious might appear weird. To another person, the FindPaul site is more about support and anything to find the missing person. The family is obviously upset at losing a member, and should be giving more leeway.

 

[2Hope4]

I keep thinking about what an investigator said in another case here. We have 3 sides to us. A public life, a private life, and a secret life. Could anything in there lead to what may have happened here? While I've known nurse's to use illegal drugs, or prescription drugs not meant for them, I wonder how many really do? It's typically not the end of their career either from the few I've known about. If they agree to treatment, and testing, they may be on supervision for awhile, but not career ending. Many places that I worked only tested when you were hired, and if there was a decline in your work, or if there was a workersman comp accident. But I worked in a small hospital and nursing homes, so not sure what the protocol is in bigger places or where Paul was working. Though anyone could have a secret life of drug use, I'm just not seeing anything that leads me there. Yes alcohol is a drug, yet I'm not seeing any major problems there with what little SM we can see.

Relationship problems are a good trigger for a mental health crisis. Whether depression, panic attacks, etc. Not sure if that plays a part here or not, but it's possible.

Leaving the apt knowing his friends would be coming back. There's a conscious effort to leave on Paul's part. What that reasoning is, and whether the reasoning is skewed by alcohol use, possible other reasons, we don't know. But he didn't lock himself in his room, or go sit in his car, instead he left. Was it to avoid talking when the roommates got back? To escape further questioning? To get a brisk walk with fresh air? To seek help? We don't know.

While in some cases the last week leading up to the disappearance may hold clues, this seems rather spur of the moment. JMO! It seems for whatever reason Paul just didn't want to be home when the others occurred. Perhaps they were still partying, and enjoying himself, and he was feeling down or angry and just not in the mood to hear or deal with the others being happy, and partying. We don't know. Were the roommates angry that they left the bar to come home, thinking it must be a true emergency, then see the situation wasn't dire, and got pissed? Possible, but again, we don't know.

Had Paul been giving something in a drink that made his thinking 'over the top' and exaggerated? One of those 'watch this' type of situations where others meant no real harm, but thought it would be funny to watch someone on a drug? Again, no way of knowing.

So many theories, nothing to make it concrete.

Dear Paul, where can you be??? I honestly don't see him walking away from a good paying job, and career. He left with basically nothing, so IMO I don't think he left with the intention of not coming back. Something happened after he left. Whether others were involved or not we don't know. Whether it was a pure accident and he feel somewhere and just hasn't been found. He could have gotten hypothermia while out walking, and tried to crawl into someplace warm and protected, and just hasn't been found there. If he wandered into unsafe territory, I don't think he had much worth robbing on him, but wouldn't someone just rob him ,and leave him? Would they go through the trouble of abducting him, or moving his body afterwards?

Nothing really makes sense, but I hope that with Spring arriving, and more people out and about, Paul can be brought home.

 

[2Hope4]

As for what happened after that video, of course that is a huge unanswered question! However, I don't know for a fact that no one else was seen on that video. I don't know for a fact that no other videos exists! I don't know for a fact that no one saw Paul, or that no one went looking for him when he wasn't at the apt. Was there concern when he wasn't there when the friends got back from getting food? What the conversation about? DId anyone suggest going to look for him? Or did they think he went for a walk to cool down and would be back soon. At what point was red flags raised for them? I don't have the answers to any of those. I hope detectives do though.

 

[Detective Klimpt]

Where does the victim list end? I think all his family are victims. Could the friends be victims? Yeah, they can, but at this time, I don't think any scenario can be ruled out. Am I crazy for still keeping foul play as a possibility, given an early altercation in the evening? I don't think so, but maybe you guys think I am off base.

Re the FindPaul site
Who decides what is weird? To one person, anything religious might appear weird. To another person, the FindPaul site is more about support and anything to find the missing person. The family is obviously upset at losing a member, and should be giving more leeway.

My issue with any theory is it has to make sense and be sequential. For example, saying someone is thrown in the water with weights without the details of how that would happen makes no sense to me.

Tman, if you think foul play could be a possibility, then can you provide me with a likely scenario about how that would take place, starting with his walk at 2:50am. Give me the details of what you think could have happened that involved foul play. Specifically, foul play involving the roommates. Can you? The only foul play that I can see is if some crazy pychopath picked him up in a car. Still, the question which nobody wants to address is where he was going. If he was injured, he isn't going for a walk to cool off.

Who decides what is weird? Good question. I guess it's an individual thing. If all the website is for is to show photos and have a zillion comments that say "praying for Paul", then I guess it is what it is.
I think it's rude of them not to answer general questions that have been asked.

 

[TMAN2014]

I don't have to come up with any specific scenarios on what happened. For the moment, without enough facts, I leave the possibilities open, and choose to not clear certain open possibilities, especially based on statements of people who could be involved. And my choice is to respect the family, even if on their personal site they choose to post prayers, or posts that seem odd, or memories.

But to each his own.

Who asked those general question, that were not answered? Honestly, even though we are discussing the case here and want answers to questions, I don't think the family owes us any information. How do we even know what the family knows, and what LE knows, and what is held back?

 

[Detective Klimpt]

I don't have to come up with any specific scenarios on what happened. For the moment, without enough facts, I leave the possibilities open, and choose to not clear certain open possibilities, especially based on statements of people who could be involved. And my choice is to respect the family, even if on their personal site they choose to post prayers, or posts that seem odd, or memories.

No, you don't 'have to' do anything. But if you feel there is a foul play possibility, wouldn't you have some sort of theory? But you're correct. To each his own.

Who asked those general question, that were not answered? Honestly, even though we are discussing the case here and want answers to questions, I don't think the family owes us any information. How do we even know what the family knows, and what LE knows, and what is held back?

Quite a few people have asked basic questions. I don't know who they are; different names from FB. I don't think the family knows very much. I don't think they even talk with the roommates. I get the feeling (no, I don't have a link) that there is animosity between the roommates and the family. I think that's why the roomies are staying mum.