PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[Trackergd]

Has anyone come up with the name of the former Hells Angel president? Many clues in BB's interview.

It was the New York chapter he was president of. Nothing to do with Philly.

The only one I knew of was the NJ Chapter President who was shot. I know his parents.

It has to be a short list....

This is one of those things I have to tread lightly with..the wrong question to the wrong person and I might be joining Ray.

 

[SuperSmith]

The Native Americans worked to quarry the argillite so that it could be used for knife blades as well as arrowheads.

http://www.visitbucks.com/cities/display-city-14.php

It was a quarry, no shafts.

BB has given me things that turned out to be wrong. Nobody bats 1000.

Some of that, I disagree with him, like the 4/16/05 sightings.

Mine Shafts are not just vertical holes. The can start as tunnels and gradually descend.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There is a difference between "not batting 1000" and "flat out lied."

I am sure that there was a letter from the guy in prison sent to BB, and I suspect the guy in prison is telling the truth about what he heard. I doubt that the guy who told the informant was telling the truth.

He has had other letters that have not turned out not to be accurate, but were given currency for a while.

 

[SuperSmith]

The only one I knew of was the NJ Chapter President who was shot. I know his parents.

It has to be a short list....

This is one of those things I have to tread lightly with..the wrong question to the wrong person and I might be joining Ray.

This isn't the guy but I wonder if he succeeded the guy we are talking about?

"Hells Angels

A motorcycle lover, Zito established the New Rochelle Motorcycle Club which later merged with the Ching-a-Ling Nomads.[5] Zito would later leave the Nomads and join the Hells Angels. In 1984, Zito helped establish the Hells Angels New York Nomad Chapter, and became the chapter's president. In 2005, Zito left the Hells Angels, after twenty-five years, to focus on his acting career."

Chuck Zito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SuperSmith]

There is a difference between "not batting 1000" and "flat out lied."

I am sure that there was a letter from the guy in prison sent to BB, and I suspect the guy in prison is telling the truth about what he heard. I doubt that the guy who told the informant was telling the truth.

He has had other letters that have not turned out not to be accurate, but were given currency for a while.

I'm sorry but I don't understand this. My apologies.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Open pit mines, and strip mines, don't have shafts. Quarries don't either. You can't bury a body in a mine shaft, if there isn't a mine shaft.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm sorry but I don't understand this. My apologies.

I'm saying that BB has given out some things, one in particular, that turned out to be incorrect. I don't think BB was lying about some of these things, but I do think he should have perhaps confirmed it first.

It's just like Quarryville in Bucks County. Quarryville isn't in Bucks County, but at least 50 miles away. Neither Bucks County nor the Quarryville area are known for a lot of mind shafts. Did he take the letter at face value without checking?

It is just like the report that RFG was around from the quarry on 192 at 8:00-8:30 AM. You check it out, or at least I would, before using it.

 

[SuperSmith]

I'm saying that BB has given out some things, one in particular, that turned out to be incorrect. I don't think BB was lying about some of these things, but I do think he should have perhaps confirmed it first.

It's just like Quarryville in Bucks County. Quarryville isn't in Bucks County, but at least 50 miles away. Neither Bucks County nor the Quarryville area are known for a lot of mind shafts. Did he take the letter at face value without checking?

It is just like the report that RFG was around from the quarry on 192 at 8:00-8:30 AM. You check it out, or at least I would, before using it.

To my knowledge the Quarry sighting has not been ruled out and furthermore upon inquiry I have ascertained that the sighting was in the afternoon rather than in the morning making it NOT impossible to have been Ray. To support that you need no look any further than LE confirming that they did check out the quarry but didn't find anything. Had the actual sighting been at 8-8:30am as you said JJ then I am sure police would've dismissed it as you have. They didn't so that further tells me the 8-8:30 sightings time was wrong. I was told it was more like 4pm-4:30pm, the end of the work shift, when people were getting off the job.

This coincides with you stating the "Hells Angel" story is a dead possibility. Well that isn't the case now is it? BB, has provided evidence that backs up the Altoona Mirror story. No offense to you or anyone else but I am willing to listen, trust, and believe an outstanding DA of 20 years than an average Joe on the internet.

 

[SuperSmith]

Mine Shafts do exist in Bucks County. I just think BB mispoke and meant "quarry" not "Quarryville"

n the mid-1990s, police descended 600 feet into the mine after cavers reported seeing the nude body of a decapitated woman at the bottom of the shaft. As The Inquirer reported, the body turned out to be a life-sized mural.
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...a-Bucks-County-Cave-.html#cZ9A8SCIf3kYW0gL.99

 

[Saunterer]

The only shaft mines I am aware of are owned by Re*ding Anthr*cite Coal Co. I know a few have been filled in over the years. Some that I had been down in. But as I noted before, anything other than an air shaft would require some heavy equipment and a ready source of fill material. It would have been quite an undertaking and should have been noticed by locals.

Filled in? Or maybe covered over, as in sealing just the surface entrance against accidents? Still, it would take an effort. But might it be more likely to have been done by the property owner?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A quarry is not a mine shaft.

A cave is not a mine shaft; there are numerous caves in Centre County.

Whether or not BB misspoke, and there are some examples, Bucks county is not an area with a concentration of mine shafts. Quarryville isn't either.

I further can state that only time I have heard about a quarry sighting, when a time was given, was 8-8:30 AM on 4/15/05. That was from a witness who thought it was RFG with a younger man.

There was no evidence that the Mini was near the quarry, as there was no dust on the outside of the car. There was no evidence of another passenger actually riding around in the car. I have found no comments of the Mini being spotted at the quarry later in the day anytime prior to it being raised earlier this year.

I have found comments on another red Mini being in Lewisburg on that weekend, and I do remember that there were three Minis being known to have been in Lewisburg on 4/15/05.

 

[Saunterer]

Altoona Mirror: Bellefonte police detective Rickard said Thursday (9-19-2013) that the claim was still open; that more interviews needed to be conducted. Two days later Rickard’s boss, Chief Weaver, said that the matter is 99% wrapped up.

Reminds me of the same conflicting info coming from their predecessors in the Gricar investigation. BTW, doncha just love one-percenters?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

In the initial story, a lot of Mirror said was later retracted.

There were a couple of points from the interview:

1. While Sloane asked for a harsher sentence for the alleged killer (AK), that request was not granted. It would not give AK a huge reason to kill RFG out of revenge.

2. The fact that AK was an FBI informant was brought out in court. It was in the file. So the premise that the HA found out about it recently really does not hold up.

3. We have seen situations where guy talks in prison, but the guy is, for lack of a better term, venting. There was a similar situation earlier this year SPM, where a defendant told his cellmate that he would rape and kill her, and then cut her up and flush her down the toilet, in his jail cell! Disturbing? Very. Criminal? Probably. A realistic threat? No.

There is also a problem with RFG communicating using his laptop. Why would an e-mail account be limited to just the laptop? How would be able to know that someone wanted to communicate with him? Why would RFG have an untraceable e-mail account (as opposed to one on one of the other computers)?

 

[SuperSmith]

In the initial story, a lot of Mirror said was later retracted.

There were a couple of points from the interview:

1. While Sloane asked for a harsher sentence for the alleged killer (AK), that request was not granted. It would not give AK a huge reason to kill RFG out of revenge.

2. The fact that AK was an FBI informant was brought out in court. It was in the file. So the premise that the HA found out about it recently really does not hold up.

3. We have seen situations where guy talks in prison, but the guy is, for lack of a better term, venting. There was a similar situation earlier this year SPM, where a defendant told his cellmate that he would rape and kill her, and then cut her up and flush her down the toilet, in his jail cell! Disturbing? Very. Criminal? Probably. A realistic threat? No.

There is also a problem with RFG communicating using his laptop. Why would an e-mail account be limited to just the laptop? How would be able to know that someone wanted to communicate with him? Why would RFG have an untraceable e-mail account (as opposed to one on one of the other computers)?

Got anything new J.J. or are you waiting?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The possibility of communication by the laptop, prior to 4/15 is new.

The question is why would RFG have a secret e-mail account specifically on the laptop? If this was a web based account that RFG had, it would possibly show up on the hard drive of the desk tops, if RFG ever accessed the account from those computers. An account based in the computer would not, but why would RFG have one exclusively on the laptop?


The second question is why would RFG be communicating with AK on that secret account? AK would not know a hypothetical secret e-mail address that RFG had, unless RFG told him. AK was a convicted felon, and RFG knew that. I'd be very troubled if RFG was secretly communicating with a felon and didn't leave any documentation on why he was doing that.

 

[Saunterer]

In evaluating the whole HAMC thingy, keep 'reach' in mind...thinking here of coast-to-coast connections, the possibility of a valid threat against Gricar's loved ones, and what Gricar's reaction might be in such an instance.

 

[SuperSmith]

The possibility of communication by the laptop, prior to 4/15 is new.

The question is why would RFG have a secret e-mail account specifically on the laptop? If this was a web based account that RFG had, it would possibly show up on the hard drive of the desk tops, if RFG ever accessed the account from those computers. An account based in the computer would not, but why would RFG have one exclusively on the laptop?


The second question is why would RFG be communicating with AK on that secret account? AK would not know a hypothetical secret e-mail address that RFG had, unless RFG told him. AK was a convicted felon, and RFG knew that. I'd be very troubled if RFG was secretly communicating with a felon and didn't leave any documentation on why he was doing that.

Secret email? Secret communications? Huh? Where did this come from? :facepalm:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The "secret e-mail" was BB's speculation. I don't think much of the possibility, and I would take it you don't either.

As for the "reach" of the Hell's Angles, AK was as ex-member and a self admitted informer by the time RFG disappeared.

 

[Saunterer]

Thank you SS for finding that BB interview. It has opened up very real possibilities, despite the naysayers.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The possibility of a clandestine meeting was there, remains, and is not a weak theory. This particular scenario, ex-Hell's Angel A K, is hugely unlikely.

The problem is one of public perception. People look at this, assume that it is the only (or most likely) possibility and when it collapses, they assume, incorrectly, that any theory involving a clandestine meeting must not be credible.