PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[J. J. in Phila]

No, just speaking the truth. What mines were there, as such, are long gone. Mine Hill Road, Durham Township is now literally lined with large houses, with in ground swimming pools; one looked Olympic sized. Just use Google Maps. The lead mines flooded in the 1800's, which is why they never were not successful. A flood control project put several under yards of water.

Beck's informer tried to dupe a everyone. It looks like the BPD and the FBI didn't fall for it. It looks like a few people did, unfortunately.

 

[Trackergd]

What are the chances that this case has languished for so long is due to deep undercover agents gathering information long term on criminal activity?

Look how long federal agents were embedded in organized crime and motorcycle gangs over the years.

 

[Trackergd]

One thing that tugs at my mind about the mine shaft is that there is a 98% chance it would be remote and one or more of the involved parties would need to know of it's existence. That would suggest a local individual in on the planning as mine shafts are not common knowledge.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What are the chances that this case has languished for so long is due to deep undercover agents gathering information long term on criminal activity?

Look how long federal agents were embedded in organized crime and motorcycle gangs over the years.

Much higher since Sandusky/PSU 3. If there would be something, they might sit on it until after the trials, even if the disappearance is not directly related to it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

One thing that tugs at my mind about the mine shaft is that there is a 98% chance it would be remote and one or more of the involved parties would need to know of it's existence. That would suggest a local individual in on the planning as mine shafts are not common knowledge.

I would have a problem with trying to drive more than 100 miles with either a bloody body or kidnapped DA in a vehicle. It is just so much easier to kill someone and leave the body, especially if you have a place to hide the gun, with 199 others.

 

[SuperSmith]

Saunterer, I found some additional information regarding a Hell's Angel connection. I think it may be likely that RG may have run in's with them as a prosecutor in Ohio. Perhaps he became well known to them.

Ray Frank Gricar
Born in Cleveland, Ohio, Gricar received his Juris Doctor degree from Case Western Reserve University School of Law and began his career as a prosecutor for Cuyahoga County. He moved to State College, Pennsylvania, around 1980 and after a brief stint as an assistant district attorney, Gricar was elected district attorney of Centre County in 1985. He was re-elected four times before announcing that he would not run for re-election in the 2005 campaign.

http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland...tion-and-back/Content?oid=3674079&storyPage=2

""Crouch was among them, and though indicted for first-degree murder, he received only two years probation and time served. (Crouch would later tell a friend in an email, and include in his writings, that Cuyahoga County Judge Frank Gorman was bribed.)"

The years line up for RG to have been working for Cuyahoga County at the time of these arrests.

"In November 1981, Clarence Crouch contacted the ATF. He would turn state's witness against the Hells Angels.
Why he made that decision may never be known, but from correspondence later in life, anecdotes from family members, testimony and his sprawling, rambling writings he frequently tried to publish, Crouch had a genuine change of heart. He would turn snitch, putting a target on his head. This is not what he had signed up for."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...eVPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rwIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2829,1900386

http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-F...ays-life-in-hiding-led-to-father-s-death.html

Saunterer, if you follow the bread crumbs I left here some things line up with previous discussion. Hope you can break down like you do

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Neither time frame works.

RFG moved to State College in 1979, and the guy became an informant in 1981. The informant was in prison in the early 1990's (Federal), from NY, and was in state prison (PA) in the late 1990's to 2003 or 2004. That doesn't match the guy profiled in the story.

RFG was considered a "rising star" in Cleveland, but wasn't the star, at that point.

 

[SuperSmith]

Saunterer, the prosecutions were in the mid to late 70's making it likely that RG could've been involved with them process. Wonder if RG had created a name for himself in the HA organization way back then? A slow burn to be sure.

 

[Saunterer]

Saunterer, the prosecutions were in the mid to late 70's making it likely that RG could've been involved with them process. Wonder if RG had created a name for himself in the HA organization way back then? A slow burn to be sure.

Anything is possible...at least that has been the mantra of the Bellefonte PD all along.

I remember telling TG about a Newt Gingrich Fox News Special: "American Gangs - Ties to Terror?". It aired in late June 2005. I do not know if the transcript is still available online.

One interviewed gang member said: "You know how to actually put a hit on a certain person that only a gang member will recognize, not nobody else. You know, just stuff like that. Walls, they talk."

Gingrich followed this with: "And age makes no difference to these brutes. If someone can aim, shoot and fire, they're in. In fact, most gang members go through training, how to kill and leave no evidence behind."

This special was about gangs within the US...not just in the big cities but moving into rural areas. And while HAMC does not recruit kids, the recent discussion reminded me of the gang mentality in general.

 

[SuperSmith]

Anything is possible...at least that has been the mantra of the Bellefonte PD all along.

I remember telling TG about a Newt Gingrich Fox News Special: "American Gangs - Ties to Terror?". It aired in late June 2005. I do not know if the transcript is still available online.

One interviewed gang member said: "You know how to actually put a hit on a certain person that only a gang member will recognize, not nobody else. You know, just stuff like that. Walls, they talk."

Gingrich followed this with: "And age makes no difference to these brutes. If someone can aim, shoot and fire, they're in. In fact, most gang members go through training, how to kill and leave no evidence behind."

This special was about gangs within the US...not just in the big cities but moving into rural areas. And while HAMC does not recruit kids, the recent discussion reminded me of the gang mentality in general.

Absolutely.

I think its worth noting that this HA, who turned states evidence, is another example of the Feds using insiders for investigations and prosecutions. Just gives the newest claim a little more backbone if you will.

I guarantee you that RG knew the Judge who accepted the bribe and was later convicted.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

<modsnip>.

As for the Cleveland HA, some of the incidents occurred when RFG was still in law school. Others, including those in the meat of the article occurred after RFG had moved to State College.

To put some perspective on RFG's Cleveland career, here is the list.

11/70-11/71, assistant city prosecutor in Cleveland.

11/71-8/79, assistant county prosecutor, Cayahoga County (which includes Cleveland).

12/80-01/86, ADA in Centre County (I think he was 1st ADA from 01/82-01/86)

01/86-04/05, DA in Centre County (elected in 1985, re-elected 1989, 1993, 1997, 2001)

Now, I have no idea if the city or county in OH would be the prosecutor in any HA case.

[My source for most of this is his FBI file]

 

[SuperSmith]

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/10/cold_cases_intrigue_lycoming_c.html

Vice president of society is Bellefonte Detective Matthew Rickard who is the lead investigator in the 2005 disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar.

Although the Gricar case has not yet been submitted to the organization, Rickard said he is impressed with the people Mains has put together to help try to solve cold cases.

It would be almost impossible for a police department to bring these people together to review a case, he said. There is no charge for their services.

 

[Saunterer]

Absolutely.

I think its worth noting that this HA, who turned states evidence, is another example of the Feds using insiders for investigations and prosecutions. Just gives the newest claim a little more backbone if you will.

I guarantee you that RG knew the Judge who accepted the bribe and was later convicted.

One more reason then why the FBI (as opposed to the state AGO/PSP) might be involved in the HAMC story.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Smith, I have to hold back things as well, so I do understand. In this case, what was publicly released is what we are discussing. Can we verify at least parts of what has been claimed. In this case, no.

Now, I'm not blaming you for saying it, but we should analyze it. Many points that BB stated have turned out to be inaccurate, a nonexistent town, nonexistent mine shafts, apparently a nonexistent comment from LG. (She wasn't even in Bellefonte for the hearing and didn't talk to the press.)

Now, if you want to continue to look into the Hell's Angels in Cleveland, fine, but at least pick a period when RFG was actually a prosecutor in Cleveland.

The City Law Department in Cleveland, at least as of now, does misdemeanors, along with a few other things, like assaults. http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/CityofCleveland/Home/Government/CityAgencies/Law/Agencies

It might well if you would look at any cases involving Hell's Angles were tried in the 1970's and if RFG actually was the prosecutor in any of them. I think it is a dead end, because most of these people have multiple convictions and more than a few were dead by 2005.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Saunterer, is any connection between the people in the story, the judge, and the alleged killer?

 

[Saunterer]

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/10/cold_cases_intrigue_lycoming_c.html

Vice president of society is Bellefonte Detective Matthew Rickard who is the lead investigator in the 2005 disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar.

Although the Gricar case has not yet been submitted to the organization, Rickard said he is impressed with the people Mains has put together to help try to solve cold cases.

It would be almost impossible for a police department to bring these people together to review a case, he said. There is no charge for their services.

Absolutely fascinating. Good find, SS! I do not believe MR's reluctance for a moment...but can believe there are "strings" whereby acknowledging something Gricar may not be in his best interest right now.

ETA: To his credit (in the HAMC thingy) MR obviously caught the ire of his superior, <modsnip> Weaver. Just thinking it would probably not be a good time for him to say too much about this new cold-case group being on the Gricar trail.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This was mentioned a while back on the old thread. It is interesting that the RFG case has not been submitted.

One of the reviewers is in the eastern division of PSP-CIA: https://www.aisocc.com/consulting-committee.html

 

[SuperSmith]

Smith, I have to hold back things as well, so I do understand. In this case, what was publicly released is what we are discussing. Can we verify at least parts of what has been claimed. In this case, no.

Now, I'm not blaming you for saying it, but we should analyze it. Many points that BB stated have turned out to be inaccurate, a nonexistent town, nonexistent mine shafts, apparently a nonexistent comment from LG. (She wasn't even in Bellefonte for the hearing and didn't talk to the press.)

Now, if you want to continue to look into the Hell's Angels in Cleveland, fine, but at least pick a period when RFG was actually a prosecutor in Cleveland.

The City Law Department in Cleveland, at least as of now, does misdemeanors, along with a few other things, like assaults. http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/CityofCleveland/Home/Government/CityAgencies/Law/Agencies

It might well if you would look at any cases involving Hell's Angles were tried in the 1970's and if RFG actually was the prosecutor in any of them. I think it is a dead end, because most of these people have multiple convictions and more than a few were dead by 2005.

JJ, with all do respect I am adding information to the HA story. RG was a prosecutor at that time in the exact county that a judge was later charged for taking bribes. How does it tie in? Not sure yet cuz I haven't had the time to research if RG did prosecute any of the HA members. If he did then it could be another reason a hit possibly was put on him. A long shot yes but at this point in the case what does it hurt? I threw the board a bone. Sorry if it bothers you so much. Not my intention to upset you.

 

[SuperSmith]

This was mentioned a while back on the old thread. It is interesting that the RFG case has not been submitted.

One of the reviewers is in the eastern division of PSP-CIA: https://www.aisocc.com/consulting-committee.html

I hope Lara or Tony submits the case.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Smith, what I am asking is there any record of RFG every handling a case involving a Hell's Angel in Cleveland? Right now the Cuyahoga County bench has 34 judges on it, so one judge, possibly out of 20-25 then, is not significant.

Further, is there any connection between A. K. and any of these people? A. K. was president of a H A chapter in NY. Nobody in the article you cited seemed to be connected to him. A. K. was an ex-Hell's Angel and a known informant, so it is unlikely he'd do any of them a "solid."

It might have to go through the police department and Tony is not next of kin in any event. Lara has said that she is, "trying to close this chapter of my life.&#8221;

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i...disappeared-05-article-1.974806#ixzz2iUpXLyIO

I don't think you can expect too much help from her.