PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[Salem]

Alright everybody - settle down.

Stop bickering now.

Salem

 

[Saunterer]

The question remains. The state has always had the authority to independently investigate whatever it wants to investigate. The state still refuses to investigate the sudden disappearance of a sitting district attorney. Why?

 

[Trackergd]

The AG could raise a big stink, but that strategy has not been too effective. Buehner and McKnight tried it in 2008.

We have had three AG's since RFG disappeared, Corbett (2005-11), Kelly (2011-13), and Kane (2013-present). Kain, if asked, can say, "No, and my predecessors didn't, either."

The DA from 2006-10, Madeira (MTM) was the most susceptible to "a big stink." He was facing numerous problems and was running for reelection. He was close to the AG, having been a former deputy AG. Turning it over would have helped him. He still didn't do it.

I don't disagree. Just spit-balling some concepts up on the wall...

Seems a tad odd that there is an appearance of wanting to sweep the whole thing under the table, no matter who is in office. Doubt it is a political party thing as not all the AG's have been from the same party if I remember correctly.

 

[Trackergd]

I like your "sweeper" notion.

:lipssealed:

If you have ever seen the movie "The Hunted" with Tommy Lee Jones, the two "hunters" were "sweepers". The movie consultant was one of my tracking instructors, and I have the second copy of the knife you see flying into the tree.....

 

[SeekingJana]

With all due respect for their circumstances, which must be still so painful, let's take a short walk down the comment line which is in the public domain from Ray Gricar's family and gf. All comments are available from MSM.

Tony Gricar- family spokesperson and son of Roy Gricar, so Ray Gricar's nephew- " We have moved on as a family." As far as I know, neither he nor his mostly- silent brother ever petitioned anyone in government for any investigator. They or someone with family ties did hire a PI for a while, according to the " Disappeared" segment. Family reward expired. They moved on.

Lara Gricar- only child of Ray Gricar and as far as we know, his beneficiary:
Did not show up for her petition to have the court declare her father legally dead. Has never held a memorial service or even a candlelight vigil to keep his memory alive. Yes, I realize she lives in the Pacific NW, or did, but a plane trip is not much when it comes to your father. She has also echoed the " Moved on" comment of Tony's. No current reward for info leading to finding him. Had him declared dead within 7 years, not the customary 8 years. She's moved on.

Patty Fornicola- was Ray's live in girlfriend at the time of his disappearance. Seemed to tear up at the cross country National Park trips they would not be visiting more than anything else. Never offered one dime in reward money. Never organized a local candlelight vigil for the missing lover as far as I know. Nothing. She moved on.

With this being the public attitude of the family members, what is the impetus of the legislative and executive branches of government to interfere with the investigative branch? It seems to me that there is absolutely no one looking for or wondering about Ray Gricar in his hometown, in his county of service, or in the commonwealth of Penn. unless they post here or elsewhere.

MAYBE the FBI or another unimpeachable source know and possibly told his next of kin, Lara, things which have not been made public. Like evidence which points to leaving the area or the country. (after he was declared legally dead). We have no way to know. Maybe a branch of PA gov't. knows the answer and is under a gag order for protection of either Ray or someone close to him. We do not know.


The families of the long- missing are the DRIVE behind the cold case investigators in most cases. The solved cold cases here on WS bear this out. It is not my opinion, but factual.

 

[SeekingJana]

Things which might have spurred more investigation.
"More' referring to any point in time after his disappearance, including the present time.

Not necessarily in order of importance:
1) Presence of a spouse. > Would be viewed as having a sense of personal responsibilities.
2) Dependent children. > same as #1.
3) No retirement looming.> Again, long career ahead of him, responsibility.
4) Credible threats to him as a DA or to his family.
5) Former acts of violence against him or another sitting PA DA.
6) A person or group taking responsibility for his disappearance at the time and it being deemed credible.
7) Goes without saying, but any sign of a struggle.
8) ANY sign that he was in distress, i.e. a crime in progress.
9) Difficult for me to print this, but- Sandusky's crimes already known via the GJ presentment.

Am I the only person who has found it somewhat disturbing that the shortened name of the business where he was reported seen with the unknown woman is SOS, which is also the International distress signal??

 

[SuperSmith]

The question remains. The state has always had the authority to independently investigate whatever it wants to investigate. The state still refuses to investigate the sudden disappearance of a sitting district attorney. Why?

Just a thought- it may be more sinister or it may be as simple as the AG having the feeling that the disappearance was related to their much publicized bust of the heroin ring in late March. What ever the case the informants and/or the undercover cops must have been a bit nervous after RG's disappearance.

 

[SuperSmith]

With all due respect for their circumstances, which must be still so painful, let's take a short walk down the comment line which is in the public domain from Ray Gricar's family and gf. All comments are available from MSM.

Tony Gricar- family spokesperson and son of Roy Gricar, so Ray Gricar's nephew- " We have moved on as a family." As far as I know, neither he nor his mostly- silent brother ever petitioned anyone in government for any investigator. They or someone with family ties did hire a PI for a while, according to the " Disappeared" segment. Family reward expired. They moved on.

Lara Gricar- only child of Ray Gricar and as far as we know, his beneficiary:
Did not show up for her petition to have the court declare her father legally dead. Has never held a memorial service or even a candlelight vigil to keep his memory alive. Yes, I realize she lives in the Pacific NW, or did, but a plane trip is not much when it comes to your father. She has also echoed the " Moved on" comment of Tony's. No current reward for info leading to finding him. Had him declared dead within 7 years, not the customary 8 years. She's moved on.

Patty Fornicola- was Ray's live in girlfriend at the time of his disappearance. Seemed to tear up at the cross country National Park trips they would not be visiting more than anything else. Never offered one dime in reward money. Never organized a local candlelight vigil for the missing lover as far as I know. Nothing. She moved on.

With this being the public attitude of the family members, what is the impetus of the legislative and executive branches of government to interfere with the investigative branch? It seems to me that there is absolutely no one looking for or wondering about Ray Gricar in his hometown, in his county of service, or in the commonwealth of Penn. unless they post here or elsewhere.

MAYBE the FBI or another unimpeachable source know and possibly told his next of kin, Lara, things which have not been made public. Like evidence which points to leaving the area or the country. (after he was declared legally dead). We have no way to know. Maybe a branch of PA gov't. knows the answer and is under a gag order for protection of either Ray or someone close to him. We do not know.


The families of the long- missing are the DRIVE behind the cold case investigators in most cases. The solved cold cases here on WS bear this out. It is not my opinion, but factual.

http://www.centredaily.com/2006/01/01/3799/gricar-investigation-stalled.html

 

[SuperSmith]

Am I the only person who has found it somewhat disturbing that the shortened name of the business where he was reported seen with the unknown woman is SOS, which is also the International distress signal??

Nice observation Jana.

 

[SeekingJana]

I learned years ago that ALL that is necessary in a missing persons case for the FBI to join a criminal investigation is for the jurisdiction to ask them if there is a viable case. There definitely was more than just cause to involve the FBI in the investigation into C.C.'s missing DA. In this case, it would have been the Bellefonte PD doing the asking.

http://www.centredaily.com/2006/01/01/3799/gricar-investigation-stalled.html

I don't want to read about Corbett b/c I think he polarized PA politically. Some of you like him and most of you dislike him. This is not about him! I don't want to read about Mike Madiera, because he was between a rock and a hard place for years.

I want to know why, with a Missing Person case of a sitting DA, the FBI was not called in to take over the investigation? THIS is the question with no good answer and I have asked it periodically for 8 long years. NOT PA LE, but national.

I hate all the belly-aching the local LE is doing in the above- linked blog. They knew, they KNEW, how to get the FBI in and how to keep them in IF they had wanted them there.
This makes me quite upset because of the lies told. Bob Buehner was, in retrospect, the best friend Ray Gricar had, and that includes his office staff, his personal friends, etc.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't disagree. Just spit-balling some concepts up on the wall...

Seems a tad odd that there is an appearance of wanting to sweep the whole thing under the table, no matter who is in office. Doubt it is a political party thing as not all the AG's have been from the same party if I remember correctly.

I did want to quote this because it was something I have been looking at and it is not disagreement.

It there was something being swept under the rug, what? What it ever it could be, hypothetically, it would have to be swept by two detectives (DZ and MR), two BPD chiefs, (DD and SW), at least two Centre County DA's (MTM and SPM), three AG's (Corbett, Kelly, and Kane). It would also have to be something that could be used to tell the family to "back off."

1. Suicide/mental illness? Well, the family has experience with that, so that is unlikely.

2. Walkaway? Well, LE is actively considering homicide scenarios, so the evidence is not there. Further, how damaging would that be, in light of the Sandusky case?

3. Something embarrassing, unethical or criminal, even in RFG's personal life for the first? Zero evidence of anything like that. Further, RFG is legally dead, so anything that would come out would not effect him or the family. Further, if homicide is possible, and this was at least partly related to it, publicizing it might help solve the crime. The only reason to hide it, is if it would worse than RFG getting murdered. Nothing even close to that has even been suggested.

It is the third point where I have the problem. If RFG was murdered, what could he have done that was so bad that no one would care if he was murdered? I can't come up with anything.

 

[Trackergd]

I did want to quote this because it was something I have been looking at and it is not disagreement.

It there was something being swept under the rug, what? What it ever it could be, hypothetically, it would have to be swept by two detectives (DZ and MR), two BPD chiefs, (DD and SW), at least two Centre County DA's (MTM and SPM), three AG's (Corbett, Kelly, and Kane). It would also have to be something that could be used to tell the family to "back off."

1. Suicide/mental illness? Well, the family has experience with that, so that is unlikely.

2. Walkaway? Well, LE is actively considering homicide scenarios, so the evidence is not there. Further, how damaging would that be, in light of the Sandusky case?

3. Something embarrassing, unethical or criminal, even in RFG's personal life for the first? Zero evidence of anything like that. Further, RFG is legally dead, so anything that would come out would not effect him or the family. Further, if homicide is possible, and this was at least partly related to it, publicizing it might help solve the crime. The only reason to hide it, is if it would worse than RFG getting murdered. Nothing even close to that has even been suggested.

It is the third point where I have the problem. If RFG was murdered, what could he have done that was so bad that no one would care if he was murdered? I can't come up with anything.

RBBM

I submit that this (3) is the whole ball of wax in a nutshell. If you knew this, you could blow the lid off of this case.

I agree that 1 and 2 seem low on the potential list, and "when you have eliminated everything else, what is left, no matter how improbable, is the truth".

 

[J. J. in Phila]

In regard to Jana's excellent post on the three principals, there is a legitimate explanation for the reward expiring: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/06/01/2747284_sad-reward.html That is a summary, but the original article is linked. I can understand the lack of a reward.

The family did maintain a website from May 2005 until November 2009. Tony Gricar, the family spokesman, was exceptionally active from 2006 (if not earlier) until 2008-9 on the Internet. That brings back the question I asked before, if he was pressured to back off.

I have not heard of a PI being hired, by the family, at any point. They were legally permitted to go to court and ask that some of RFG's assets be used in efforts to find him. http://www.centredaily.com/2011/06/01/2747284_sad-reward.html

PEF didn't have a legal claim to that money, and probably took a financial hit when RFG disappeared. I can understand her not putting large amounts of money forward.

 

[SeekingJana]

There is absolutely NOTHING which is suspected of a person that would make them unworthy of a thorough murder investigation.

IF, and it's a whopper of an IF, Mr. Gricar committed a crime or crimes, he had the same right as every US citizen to have his case heard before a judge and a jury of his peers.
Guilt should not be presumed due to possible or probable involuntary death.

This is still America and the Constitution still stands, despite the best efforts of some to destroy it.

 

[SeekingJana]

In regard to Jana's excellent post on the three principals, there is a legitimate explanation for the reward expiring: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/06/01/2747284_sad-reward.html That is a summary, but the original article is linked. I can understand the lack of a reward.

The family did maintain a website from May 2005 until November 2009. Tony Gricar, the family spokesman, was exceptionally active from 2006 (if not earlier) until 2008-9 on the Internet. That brings back the question I asked before, if he was pressured to back off.

I have not heard of a PI being hired, by the family, at any point. They were legally permitted to go to court and ask that some of RFG's assets be used in efforts to find him. http://www.centredaily.com/2011/06/01/2747284_sad-reward.html

PEF didn't have a legal claim to that money, and probably took a financial hit when RFG disappeared. I can understand her not putting large amounts of money forward.

There was a PI on the Disappeared segment. Was he working gratis?

 

[SuperSmith]

It is the third point where I have the problem. If RFG was murdered, what could he have done that was so bad that no one would care if he was murdered? I can't come up with anything.

Perhaps its not that anyone didn't care but rather they are protecting something else, someone else or sensitive material. Perhaps higher ups are protecting informants, agents, etc. because of what THEY are needed for exceeds the need to find a small town DA.

As evidenced by the HA story. Would Federal agencies protect there informants over finding a DA? I suppose it would depend what those informants are involved in for the agencies however after 8 years such a theory is getting long in the tooth. JMO

 

[SeekingJana]

RBBM

I submit that this (3) is the whole ball of wax in a nutshell. If you knew this, you could blow the lid off of this case.

I agree that 1 and 2 seem low on the potential list, and "when you have eliminated everything else, what is left, no matter how improbable, is the truth".

Number 3 is totally contrary to the way our Constitution works. He might have been thought to be guilty of a crime after he disappeared, but he could not be held to the legal standard of guilt but instead to our Constitution's presumption of innocence in the absence of Mr. Gricar to face charges against him ( hypothetical charges, IMO). Therefore, the search was/ is mandated as a missing person search.

 

[SeekingJana]

Perhaps its not that anyone didn't care but rather they are protecting something else, someone else or sensitive material. Perhaps higher ups are protecting informants, agents, etc. because of what THEY are needed for exceeds the need to find a small town DA.

As evidenced by the HA story. Would Federal agencies protect there informants over finding a DA? I suppose it would depend what those informants are involved in for the agencies however after 8 years such a theory is getting long in the tooth. JMO

He was not a small town D.A. He was the D.A. for Centre County.
In this country, the needs of the many do not outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
Ray Gricar's legal right to a thorough and exhaustive search is absolute.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There is absolutely NOTHING which is suspected of a person that would make them unworthy of a thorough murder investigation.

IF, and it's a whopper of an IF, Mr. Gricar committed a crime or crimes, he had the same right as every US citizen to have his case heard before a judge and a jury of his peers.
Guilt should not be presumed due to possible or probable involuntary death.

This is still America and the Constitution still stands, despite the best efforts of some to destroy it.

I'm quoting this because I agree with it, especially the part you bolded.

If we were talking about a hypothetical missing person who took bribes, was in al Qaeda, raped elderly nuns, and put puppies in a blender, I could understand why LE (or the guy's loved ones) might not look too hard for his murderer (and if I was on the jury, I might vote to acquit the murderer). That is not the case with RFG.

This case has been around for 8 years, and despite any number of comments on the Internet, there is zero evidence of anything that would cross the line into being criminal (except the computer toss, which was incredibly minor).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Smith, I think your "long in the tooth" argument is correct. Look at Bulger; he was an informant, but that didn't prevent him from facing charges, eventually.

Further, even if someone was granted immunity, or being temporarily shielded, why not tell local LE? They are still investigating possible murders and translating the missing person poster into Slovenian.

I sometimes think that LE is as stymied as we are, and might even be sitting around, reading these boards, hoping that some comment might trigger something (and that has happened in this case).