PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[SuperSmith]

Well, the inmate gains publicity, maybe public acknowledgement that helped the police. Those would be factors.

There have been a number of these.

I think everyone can agree that it's a little difficult to gain notoriety or publicity if no one knows your name.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Law enforcement, and the parole board, will know the guy's name. That is the group he might be trying to impress.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

No, I don't have an answer for everything, but I do look at rather obvious motives. You have drawn a comparison with Sloane. Well, Sloane might have had a motive, wishfully hoping his friend is alive, to form an opinion that RFG is alive. His motive would not have anything to do with his conviction, however. He might also have thought that there was something in RFG's personality that might have led him to leave voluntarily.

In this case, we have someone with an obvious motive, to curry favor with the authorities who can arrange an early release. One of the articles noted that there have other similar reports from other jailed informants, that have proven to be false.

As for the guy's lawyer, I have no idea who his lawyer is, or if his lawyer is "well known" or expensive, or if he is handling this case for a fee or not. According to BB, one of the informants is a white collar criminal, so he might have substantial resources.

 

[Salem]

Listen up Guys - here is the deal in here: Posters may discuss any theory they wish as long as it does not violate TOS. If you don't want to discuss that particular theory, then don't. That's fine. Discuss the theory you want to talk about. Be respectful, scroll and roll where necessary, ignore where necessary and/or agree to disagree. If you have a problem, alert the post and a mod will review it.

Remember - a difference of opinion is NOT a TOS violation. There is no rule that says each poster must respond to every post. If you disagree and can't post respectfully, scroll past the post and move on.

Salem

 

[SuperSmith]

No, I don't have an answer for everything, but I do look at rather obvious motives. You have drawn a comparison with Sloane. Well, Sloane might have had a motive, wishfully hoping his friend is alive, to form an opinion that RFG is alive. His motive would not have anything to do with his conviction, however. He might also have thought that there was something in RFG's personality that might have led him to leave voluntarily.

In this case, we have someone with an obvious motive, to curry favor with the authorities who can arrange an early release. One of the articles noted that there have other similar reports from other jailed informants, that have proven to be false.

As for the guy's lawyer, I have no idea who his lawyer is, or if his lawyer is "well known" or expensive, or if he is handling this case for a fee or not. According to BB, one of the informants is a white collar criminal, so he might have substantial resources.

I understand your point about currying favor with LE but that still doesn't explain the need to curry favor from a small newspaper. I know the identity of the lawyer as should you. I also know the identity of the white collar criminal. Both of which have been printed in the media.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I understand your point about currying favor with LE but that still doesn't explain the need to curry favor from a small newspaper. I know the identity of the lawyer as should you. I also know the identity of the white collar criminal. Both of which have been printed in the media.

I have not seen any reference to who informant's lawyer is. I know of a lot of lawyers; they are not rare. I have seen neither identified as such in the media, and would like a link to either.

The press, from the informants standpoint, creates pressure on LE to do something.

Now, it is not so much a message board problem, but it is a media problem when someone goes on the radio and comes up with an incredible story, with at best garbled details, and basically advocates a scenario that LE has publicly ruled out. You heard the reaction of the two interviewers and the caller to BB's comments. Even if you think there is a good possibility RFG was the victim of foul play (and I think there is a good chance), trying to push that scenario only hurts that.

As the Hell's Angles story unfolded, it became less and less credible. BB not even being able to match the county and town didn't help. Nor did he help the matter by trying to tie the computer into it somehow.

I don't "push" walk away, but if I did, I could point to thinks like the "Hell's Angles" scenario, and say, "See how out there the murder scenarios all are. RFG must have walked away or committed suicide." The problem is, there are some stronger foul play scenarios out there.

 

[Saunterer]

I think it is very interesting that LE, after several years and despite one-percenter Weaver's recent comment, has not been able to rule out information from at least two independent sources about a revenge killing...unlike the immediate dismissal of any connection between Sandusky and Gricar's disappearance. In terms of public perception, it obviously has convinced more people that Gricar was likely murdered.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The Sandusky "rule out" took several weeks, and we don't know if there has been any new information since then.

The BPD went to the point of excavating a possible grave in Blair County in 2010-11, so foul play has not been ruled out.


The public perception has been that this was another ruled out murder scenario. It is now to the point that we're starting to see published Ray Gricar jokes by actual journalists: In a story that would only be surprising if it included vanished Centre County D.A. Ray Gricar stepping from an alien spaceship and announcing that the weather on Alpha Centauri really is lovely this time of year,... .

http://blog.pennlive.com/capitol-notebook/2013/10/corbett_gas_industry_clash_wit.html


Both the interviewers and the caller were not impressed by the Hell's Angel theory.

Am I happy about that? No.

 

[Saunterer]

Rickard also said there were more interviews to be conducted, it was ongoing, and FBI hasn't followed up yet.

Look if this information offends anyone I'm sorry but it does directly connect to the Gricar case. <modsnip>

I have no doubt the Bellefonte PD has ended this particular line of inquiry, because the BPD is in no position to investigate it. Rather, the BPD is relying on the FBI to investigate this. Greg Bock's (Altoona Mirror) informant now claims he has immunity and is waiting on the FBI to take him back to the alleged burial spot.

 

[SuperSmith]

I have not seen any reference to who informant's lawyer is. I know of a lot of lawyers; they are not rare. I have seen neither identified as such in the media, and would like a link to either.

The press, from the informants standpoint, creates pressure on LE to do something.

Now, it is not so much a message board problem, but it is a media problem when someone goes on the radio and comes up with an incredible story, with at best garbled details, and basically advocates a scenario that LE has publicly ruled out. You heard the reaction of the two interviewers and the caller to BB's comments. Even if you think there is a good possibility RFG was the victim of foul play (and I think there is a good chance), trying to push that scenario only hurts that.

As the Hell's Angles story unfolded, it became less and less credible. BB not even being able to match the county and town didn't help. Nor did he help the matter by trying to tie the computer into it somehow.

I don't "push" walk away, but if I did, I could point to thinks like the "Hell's Angles" scenario, and say, "See how out there the murder scenarios all are. RFG must have walked away or committed suicide." The problem is, there are some stronger foul play scenarios out there.

To help protect himself legally, the source brought in Harrisburg-based defense attorney William Costopoulos, he said. Costopoulos declined to comment or confirm his firm was working for the source.

http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/c...Police-probe-claim-Gricar-killed.html?nav=742

 

[SuperSmith]

I have no doubt the Bellefonte PD has ended this particular line of inquiry, because the BPD is in no position to investigate it. Rather, the BPD is relying on the FBI to investigate this. Greg Bock's (Altoona Mirror) informant now claims he has immunity and is waiting on the FBI to take him back to the alleged burial spot.

Furthermore BB indicated they blew the information off. Weaver might just be trying to save face.

 

[SuperSmith]

I have not seen any reference to who informant's lawyer is. I know of a lot of lawyers; they are not rare. I have seen neither identified as such in the media, and would like a link to either.

The press, from the informants standpoint, creates pressure on LE to do something.

Now, it is not so much a message board problem, but it is a media problem when someone goes on the radio and comes up with an incredible story, with at best garbled details, and basically advocates a scenario that LE has publicly ruled out. You heard the reaction of the two interviewers and the caller to BB's comments. Even if you think there is a good possibility RFG was the victim of foul play (and I think there is a good chance), trying to push that scenario only hurts that.

As the Hell's Angles story unfolded, it became less and less credible. BB not even being able to match the county and town didn't help. Nor did he help the matter by trying to tie the computer into it somehow.

I don't "push" walk away, but if I did, I could point to thinks like the "Hell's Angles" scenario, and say, "See how out there the murder scenarios all are. RFG must have walked away or committed suicide." The problem is, there are some stronger foul play scenarios out there.

Here you go JJ http://articles.mcall.com/2006-05-0...case-undercover-state-trooper-murder-for-hire

 

[J. J. in Phila]

1. That is not the same person. There is the informant who sent the message to BB, and the informant who identified the A K (the one that talked to the Mirror). They are two different people. I'm also not sure if the guy who talked to the FBI is the same one that that to Buehner.

2. There would be no need for Weaver to "safe face," if it lead to the solution of a 8.5 year old cold case that is hugely high profile. That would be an accomplishment that would overshadow not looking at the person initially (which has happened in other cases as well).

3. Note that the informant in the Mirror story claimed he was being represented by William Costopoulos, who is well known in the area. Costopoulos didn't say that.

 

[SuperSmith]

1. That is not the same person. There is the informant who sent the message to BB, and the informant who identified the A K (the one that talked to the Mirror). They are two different people. I'm also not sure if the guy who talked to the FBI is the same one that that to Buehner.

2. There would be no need for Weaver to "safe face," if it lead to the solution of a 8.5 year old cold case that is hugely high profile. That would be an accomplishment that would overshadow not looking at the person initially (which has happened in other cases as well).

3. Note that the informant in the Mirror story claimed he was being represented by William Costopoulos, who is well known in the area. Costopoulos didn't say that.

He would need to save face if they didn't investigate the claim and/or the FBI beat them to a solution.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Smith, an informant going to the FBI is not going to embarrass the BPD. As noted in the article, there are numerous types of these reports over the years. I would never expect Rickard to do nothing but fly all over the world, at this point, to track them all down. I would not expect the PA AG's Office to do that initially. They would go to the local authorities first.

Even in other missing persons' cases, it is the local agency that either finds the living person or the remains and contacts the "home" agency. We saw that in the Heist case recently, and we saw that in the Smith case, where the woman was reported missing in Philadelphia and her remains were found in the Carolinas. That isn't embarrassing; it is standard.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just to put this into perspective, here is the thread on the Judith Smith case:

PA PA-Mysterious Death of Judy Smith:How did she get from Philly to North Carolina? 1997 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Even though the Philadelphia Police should have been embarrassed, there wasn't any problem.

 

[SuperSmith]

Smith, an informant going to the FBI is not going to embarrass the BPD. As noted in the article, there are numerous types of these reports over the years. I would never expect Rickard to do nothing but fly all over the world, at this point, to track them all down. I would not expect the PA AG's Office to do that initially. They would go to the local authorities first.

Even in other missing persons' cases, it is the local agency that either finds the living person or the remains and contacts the "home" agency. We saw that in the Heist case recently, and we saw that in the Smith case, where the woman was reported missing in Philadelphia and her remains were found in the Carolinas. That isn't embarrassing; it is standard.

Phila, when two LE agencies receive information on a case they are BOTH involved and one agency laughs off the claims and the other then investigates it it makes the othe look extremely bad especially when that LE is supposed to be in the lead for this case. BPD looks bad here and it's not the first time in this case hence Weaver chiming in to say "nothing to it" like they investigated it. They didn't, the FBI did.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The BPD would not normally be investigating it, in the field, at least. It looks like the informant contacted the FBI directly: http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/c...Police-probe-claim-Gricar-killed.html?nav=742

It doesn't make them "look bad," because the FBI was doing that aspect of the investigation. Like any other long distant lead, Southfield, for example, it is the local police that do the initial investigation.

It is generally that way in most criminal investigations.

This is a real stretch that just adds to the public belief that RFG was not a victim of foul play.

 

[SuperSmith]

The BPD would not normally be investigating it, in the field, at least. It looks like the informant contacted the FBI directly: http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/c...Police-probe-claim-Gricar-killed.html?nav=742

It doesn't make them "look bad," because the FBI was doing that aspect of the investigation. Like any other long distant lead, Southfield, for example, it is the local police that do the initial investigation.

It is generally that way in most criminal investigations.

This is a real stretch that just adds to the public belief that RFG was not a victim of foul play.

I don't see how a foul play theory makes it look less likely to be foul play. <modsnip>

If the BPD didn't do the investigation then what right do they have to comment on its status?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

With all due respect, your scale and public opinion are two different things. I do not think public opinion is reliable, but it can ultimately determine how much support there is for solving the case. Just look at the one caller and the reaction of the two hosts. Seriously, go back and listen. Every time someone holds to a murder theory, in spite of increased evidence against it, it helps people think that RFG wasn't a crime victim.

As for the comment, the BPD is still the lead agency. It is appropriate for them to release the information. It is also appropriate to speak with those other investigating agencies first, prior to releasing the information. It shows some discipline.