PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[SuperSmith]

"'We looked into the claim thoroughly, and there may be some loose ends, but at this point, it is unsubstantiated,' Weaver said Saturday of a claim followed up on by the FBI earlier this year."

and

"On Saturday, Chief Weaver went further to say the story was thoroughly checked out and the investigation into the matter is 99 percent wrapped up."

http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/575024.html

Two days later, to the same reporter.

Now, if this the best murder scenario, it looks like there is a 1% of murder. Hint: This is far from the best murder scenario.

So who is lying, Rickard & BB or Weaver?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

No one is lying. Who gave a string of inaccuracies? BB.

Rickard was noncommittal, and let the Chief speak. That is appropriate.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The CDT is not my employer. This particular blog, while it does address BB's interview, does look at public officials being targeted, which does happen; it was actually written a few weeks ago. I would suspect that most, if not all, of the cases cited have been mentioned on this site.

While a link is posted, I certainly do not force folks to read it.

 

[SuperSmith]

The CDT is not my employer. This particular blog, while it does address BB's interview, does look at public officials being targeted, which does happen; it was actually written a few weeks ago. I would suspect that most, if not all, of the cases cited have been mentioned on this site.

While a link is posted, I certainly do not force folks to read it.

<modsnip>

I know how newspapers work which includes their online revenue. Advertisers pay for spots on the papers website. The more hits a page receives the more revenue and potential new advertisers the better. It was just an observation. No offense meant toward you. I hope that I can start linking my blog here but I better ask the admin first.

We may differ on a lot of theories but at the end of the day you are keeping Ray's name in the media which generally is a good thing.

 

[Saunterer]

"The mines, off Routes 212 and 611 in Durham Township [Bucks County, near the Delaware River], are frequented by hundreds of spelunkers who go there to explore or others who delve into their cavernous bowels to party, mostly on weekends, Laboski said."

"Laboski, a trooper with the Dublin state police barracks, said the mines are honeycombed with shafts. "It's a very dangerous area, and we'd just as well not be too specific about where they are," Laboski said."

http://articles.philly.com/1992-10-27/news/25997285_1_mine-shaft-headless-body-spelunkers

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have never been compensated, nor do I ask for donations, for anything related to the Gricar case; in fact, I have spent money on it. I have declined an offer to co-write a book on the case (with Sloane, before his troubles). Part of that is because I don't have a last chapter. Most of it is not wanting to make money off the case.

I personally have no objection to you linking to a relevant source. In this case, I would think that a discussion of public officials targeted because they were public officials might be relevant.

 

[margarita25]

Just saw Ray's episode on ID's "Disappeared". I hope his girlfriend Patti and his daughter can have some answers someday soon!

I look forward to reading everyone's comments.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Listing the county and the township is a lot more specific, especially since there really is a township by that name in Bucks County. It also does not point to a lot of mines in the area, and this one is 200+ years old.

 

[SuperSmith]

"The mines, off Routes 212 and 611 in Durham Township [Bucks County, near the Delaware River], are frequented by hundreds of spelunkers who go there to explore or others who delve into their cavernous bowels to party, mostly on weekends, Laboski said."

"Laboski, a trooper with the Dublin state police barracks, said the mines are honeycombed with shafts. "It's a very dangerous area, and we'd just as well not be too specific about where they are," Laboski said."

http://articles.philly.com/1992-10-27/news/25997285_1_mine-shaft-headless-body-spelunkers

Great find Saunterer. Thank you

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That was posted before, it seems to be the sole location and it is a bat cave. Well, bat subterranean habitat.

 

[Saunterer]

Listing the county and the township is a lot more specific, especially since there really is a township by that name in Bucks County. It also does not point to a lot of mines in the area, and this one is 200+ years old.

In BB's interview on WKOK, he mentions the FBI taking the informant (GB's informant) to Bucks County along the Delaware River. I suspect BB got this info from GB. My previous post identified a possible area (old iron mines in Durham Township, which lies along the Delaware in Bucks County) where there are numerous shafts that make it a very dangerous place (according to a PSP trooper).

BB's informant (pen pal) is not the same person as GB's informant. BB's informant was supposedly a cellmate of one of those involved in the hit. That is the independent corroboration...a second informant.

 

[Saunterer]

Great find Saunterer. Thank you

You are welcome. I have no idea why BB, later in last week's interview, mentioned what I too heard as "Quarryville". I found no current or historic reference to it in Bucks County. But I continue to be amazed at how outspoken BB has been over the years in Gricar's case. I have learned more from him than from all of LE and family put together.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

GB's informant was the guy who the FBI took to the place, the guy that wants immunity mine shaft guy[/i]. He talked to someone else, who initially talked to FBI and told them about mine shaft guy. He may or may not be BB's informant.

In any event, BB's informant is someone who talked to mine shaft guy. Mine shaft guy did talk to GB and the FBI, who didn't find anything. The only thing that BB's source said is this is what mine shaft guy (MSG) said to him, which is what (MSG) said to GB and the FBI. Well, maybe, the reported story from MSG has changed; whether it was changed in the telling or MSG has told different versions is unknown. The story that BB repeated is different from the two Mirror stories, which was based on the court record. According to that A K was known to be an FBI informant at the time of sentencing.

As for the other mine shafts, I have found no reference to any others, especially ones sealed up since 2005. There is a reference to this very old, and open, mine shaft.

 

[SuperSmith]

In any event, BB's informant is someone who talked to mine shaft guy. Mine shaft guy did talk to GB and the FBI, who didn't find anything.

<modsnip>. The FBI has not made comment on anything let alone stating that they didn't find anything.

It was reported the FBI took this inmate to a location where the mine shaft was supposedly located, got cold feet after learning the former HA member was still alive, and the real possibility that the other bodies would incriminate him as well. The inmate stopped the expedition in its tracks, lawyered up, and is waiting for an immunity deal.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Smith, they did find anything and the lead agency, who would release that information, said that it was 99% discounted. The FBI didn't find anything, did they? No remains, no physical evidence.

 

[Saunterer]

Careful reads of the two Altoona Mirror articles last month and the WKOK interview last week show that the respective informants are in no way connected to each other. Buehner's pen pal sent him letters in 2010, which he dutifully turned over to the Bellefonte PD. But having read about Bock's informant and later talking with Bock, I trust Buehner has now also passed the letters to the same FBI guys.

BTW, does anyone care to speculate on why the FBI is in charge of this aspect of the investigation...as opposed to the PSP? I believe Bucks County is still a part of Pennsylvania.

 

[Saunterer]

GB's informant was the guy who the FBI took to the place, the guy that wants immunity mine shaft guy[/i]. He talked to someone else, who initially talked to FBI and told them about mine shaft guy. He may or may not be BB's informant.

In any event, BB's informant is someone who talked to mine shaft guy. Mine shaft guy did talk to GB and the FBI, who didn't find anything. The only thing that BB's source said is this is what mine shaft guy (MSG) said to him, which is what (MSG) said to GB and the FBI. Well, maybe, the reported story from MSG has changed; whether it was changed in the telling or MSG has told different versions is unknown. The story that BB repeated is different from the two Mirror stories, which was based on the court record. According to that A K was known to be an FBI informant at the time of sentencing.

As for the other mine shafts, I have found no reference to any others, especially ones sealed up since 2005. There is a reference to this very old, and open, mine shaft.

Buehner's informant (pen pal) is a guy who took several people's money, promising to build them swimming pools but never delivering. While being processed through Camp Hill SCI in 2010, he claims his cellmate told him that he was one of those involved in the hit on Gricar. Bock's informant is supposedly a former ranking member in HAMC with direct knowledge of who ordered the hit, why, and where the body was disposed of.

 

[Trackergd]

Careful reads of the two Altoona Mirror articles last month and the WKOK interview last week show that the respective informants are in no way connected to each other. Buehner's pen pal sent him letters in 2010, which he dutifully turned over to the Bellefonte PD. But having read about Bock's informant and later talking with Bock, I trust Buehner has now also passed the letters to the same FBI guys.

BTW, does anyone care to speculate on why the FBI is in charge of this aspect of the investigation...as opposed to the PSP? I believe Bucks County is still a part of Pennsylvania.

BBM

1. Specialty Resources - Advanced Forensics
2. Federal Criminal activity
3. Related to another ongoing investigation with possible undercover agents.
4. Requested by BPD or PSP

 

[SuperSmith]

Smith, they did find anything and the lead agency, who would release that information, said that it was 99% discounted. The FBI didn't find anything, did they? No remains, no physical evidence.

If the FBI is running an independent/parallel investigation that includes a former/current FBI informant then they do not need to share their findings with the lead agency until its conclusion. There is no conclusion, no remains, no physical evidence because the inmate HAS NOT lead the FBI to the exact location of the bodies. That has not transpired because like I said before he got cold feet after learning the HA member is alive, possibly would incriminate him, wants immunity, and has hired an attorney.

Until the FBI decides whether it wants to grant that or some deal the investigation is ongoing.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Greg Bock informant is the guy who the FBI took to the site, mine shaft guy. He is talking directly to GB. He is repeatedly listed as "the source."

Now, the guy might have said the same thing to Buehner's informant, but he's clearly talking to Bock and the FBI.

<modsnip> there are very few mine shafts in Bucks County. I finally found a list. http://www.us-mining.com/pennsylvania/bucks-county Eliminating the quarries, you have 14.

Durham is not sealed, as it is a bat sanctuary (the bat population recently got creamed). The New Galena (2-3 separate mines) and Frick mines are under water (flood control and they were flooding in the 1800's). Geisinger, Bowman's Hill are an open pits. Superior Zinc and Fairless Hills are a processing plants. The others appear to have abandoned (and might be due to flooding) and may be lost. Two are listed as small vein, so there would not be extensive digging. I think one or two are state parks, so not private property.

A wild goose chase. <modsnip>
I just took a look where the "mines" were. It is now a mixture of farms and McMansions, most with built in swimming pools.