PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

[J. J. in Phila]

First, thanks Jana. I couldn't figure it out.

I'm not too sure that the BPD isn't, or hasn't, revisited the asset question. Initially, the looked at the prior 2.5 years, and there was nothing amiss. I'd be looking earlier as well.

 

[SuperSmith]

First, thanks Jana. I couldn't figure it out.

I'm not too sure that the BPD isn't, or hasn't, revisited the asset question. Initially, the looked at the prior 2.5 years, and there was nothing amiss. I'd be looking earlier as well.

Is that opinion, suggestion, or fact regarding a revisit of the finances? Would the County have to approve a forensic audit? Would Lara allow it?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If there was a court order, it wouldn't be up to Lara to allow, though TG has said that they would fully cooperate.

The extent is unknown; I think in 2011 that they review panel did say that they were reviewing his financials. I would suggest looking at RFG's finance from the full year he became full time, 1997.

Based on what is known to have spent, and allowing for a generous living expense, RFG could have accumulating his total savings since 2003. His divorce was finalized in July of 2001. Even from that period, there should have been an additional moneys. That also assumes that he ended his divorce with no money, an unlikely event.

 

[SeekingJana]

The FBI did a fiscal audit early on, but I do not know the scope of their audit, whether it was confined to the DA's office finances, or what.

I do not think a LE agency requires ANYONE'S approval or consent in this century for any type of snooping. JMO...

 

[SeekingJana]

Taxes would be enormous if PA has state income tax.
I do not work any longer as an RN simply because the federal income tax on my income would, as my husband said, " Add to his tax burden" when combined with his salary, which is more than Mr. Gricar's in 2005, according to the figures posted here.

Also, Mr. Gricar didn't own real estate, Lara was possibly becoming self- sufficient and graduating soon, so his exemptions were really slim. No wife, things that really add up once you get around $200,000/ annually and above.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It was $16,000 from ATMs over 2.5 years. It was just a check of his cash withdrawals, not a full audit.

http://www.post-gazette.com/frontpa...n-photos-of-DA-his-look-alike-from-Texas.html

That is not a lot of money, but that only deals with his cash withdrawals and only over a 2.5 year period (which would be October of 2002, if Chief Dixon wasn't speaking loosely).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I figured that, after taxes, RFG would be netting in the mid $80's K per year. At least some of it is accounted for.

 

[SeekingJana]

So I take it that PA does have state income taxes? Your net figure seems low, so without being industrious and looking it up, I'm guessing the Commonwealth of PA collects income taxes..

He didn't own any real estate at all, did he? The more I look at how unfettered he was personally, the more it seems like he chose an austere life in PA. As the owner of 2 BMWs I consider one little Mini not to be the luxury coupe that has been portrayed in some recent posts. They are relatively cheap, and were especially so 8 years ago to attract US buyers.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So I take it that PA does have state income taxes? Your net figure seems low, so without being industrious and looking it up, I'm guessing the Commonwealth of PA collects income taxes..

Yes, and either 2.1 or 2.3% at the time. There is a a 1% earned income tax.
I'm assuming no deductions as well. If anything, I am being overly generous in what RFG spent and paid.

He didn't own any real estate at all, did he? The more I look at how unfettered he was personally, the more it seems like he chose an austere life in PA. As the owner of 2 BMWs I consider one little Mini not to be the luxury coupe that has been portrayed in some recent posts. They are relatively cheap, and were especially so 8 years ago to attract US buyers.

At the time of his disappearance, RFG owned no real estate. He had a house with Emma, but she got it in the divorce. I think the value had increased by $30 K since they bought it. It was equitable distribution settlement, so you could figure that RFG got something in return, though it could been her agreement not to make any claim against his pension/insurance.

Keep in mind that Emma was a skilled worker and contributed to the household income until 2001.

I looked at the prices of Minis in 2004: $18-$24 K I've figured high on RFG's spending. In short, he might have been doing a bit better financially.

As pointed out earlier on this thread, BG probably made more, and she was also LG's parent. Schooling costs would have been at least shared.

The assets seem to be too low.

 

[Trackergd]

It appears that a number of MC folks have heard about the mine shaft theory. The ones I talked to seemed to feel that if RG had been "taken care of" by a MC, that he would have been found in a manner that would suggest that messing with a particular MC would not be advisable. If they were to get rid of evidence, using a backhoe in a members or friends farm field or a large concrete pour project would be less of a hassle than trying to find a mine shaft to dump a bunch of evidence down. None of the guys I talked to even knew of any mine shafts, and considering we are close to Quarryville and Nickle Mines, I found that interesting. Some folks here at work have heard rumors of mine shafts in the coal areas, but none had ever seen any.

 

[SuperSmith]

I think assets may be a key issue. He grossed over $330,000 since his divorce from Emma, even if he was penniless at the end.

If you make $125,000 a year, you will fall into the 28% tax bracket. If $125,000 is your adjusted gross income after all deductions, you will make $90,000.

$90,000

-Food ($5,200) (assuming only $100/wk (including dining)
-Electric ($840)(avg $70/m)
-Health Insurance- ?
-Extra contributions to Pension?
-Heat (1,200) (assuming only $100/m)
-Vacation (3,000/yr)
-Gas ($1040)
-Clothing ($1000)
-Gifts/Money to Lara??

So say with just these few items I have gotten it down to $75,000/year with a lot of questions marks on what he paid for this or that. Point being it is not difficult to eat up 90k with living expenses and moderate luxuries.

I do not believe there is any money missing of significance.

 

[SuperSmith]

Yes, and either 2.1 or 2.3% at the time. There is a a 1% earned income tax.
I'm assuming no deductions as well. If anything, I am being overly generous in what RFG spent and paid.



At the time of his disappearance, RFG owned no real estate. He had a house with Emma, but she got it in the divorce. I think the value had increased by $30 K since they bought it. It was equitable distribution settlement, so you could figure that RFG got something in return, though it could been her agreement not to make any claim against his pension/insurance.

Keep in mind that Emma was a skilled worker and contributed to the household income until 2001.

I looked at the prices of Minis in 2004: $18-$24 K I've figured high on RFG's spending. In short, he might have been doing a bit better financially.

As pointed out earlier on this thread, BG probably made more, and she was also LG's parent. Schooling costs would have been at least shared.

The assets seem to be too low.

The police ruled it out so it must be a dead end. Apart from that if RG walked away from his life don't you think he would be smart enough to know that his finances would be the first thing LE would check out?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The police ruled it out so it must be a dead end. Apart from that if RG walked away from his life don't you think he would be smart enough to know that his finances would be the first thing LE would check out?

First, that makes an assumption that RFG decided to walk away, then arranged his assets. I would not make that assumption.

Second, it would depend on when the money was moved. If you look at RFG's known spending and salary from 2003-05, there is an explanation for where the money he earned went. Are we to assume that he entered that period with virtually no money? I would not make that assumption either.

 

[SuperSmith]

First, that makes an assumption that RFG decided to walk away, then arranged his assets. I would not make that assumption.

Second, it would depend on when the money was moved. If you look at RFG's known spending and salary from 2003-05, there is an explanation for where the money he earned went. Are we to assume that he entered that period with virtually no money? I would not make that assumption either.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to discuss this case here. I did not make an assumption that RG walked away. I believe in the foul play theory. Always have and always will.

I said "IF" he walked away from his life don't you think........."

 

[SuperSmith]

I respectfully submit that we discuss this:

"We could talk about -new investigation avenues-, which I'd be game to."

Talking assets is beating an old drum. It's been discussed thoroughly already over the last 8 years.

I tried to bring something new to the table with HA theory & Cold Case unit but had it shot down quickly.

So does anyone have something "new" to chew on today?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I am finding it increasingly difficult to discuss this case here. I did not make an assumption that RG walked away. I believe in the foul play theory. Always have and always will.

I said "IF" he walked away from his life don't you think........."

The premise was that if RFG walked away, he would have made that decision first, then moved money to finance his new life. Because, under that premise, RFG didn't move money in the last 2.5 years, the argument, in a logical sense, is that RFG didn't move the money and therefor didn't walk away.

That premise relies on an assumption that first RFG decided to walked away, then he moved the money. That assumption, on which the premise is based, is flawed. RFG could have moved the money first, without an intention of walking away, and then later made the choice to walk away.

Hypothetically, suppose that Sam, a guy with some money, moves some of it, a significant amount, into a foreign account. His purpose for doing so is not to use it to walk away; we won't state what it is.

Later, because of a change of regulations, or increased scrutiny by the government, Sam realizes that he can't bring the money back into the county, at least without alerting a lot of government types. Sam's money is still there, but he can't access is here. To use it, he has to go to where it is; he can't bring it back.

Sam goes to where it is, and gets it; he obviously doesn't tell anyone about it. From his perspective he walking to the money, but from the perspective of everyone else, he just walked away.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

One of the new investigative avenues would be a forensic audit from the time of RFG's salary increase. There has been no claim that one has been done, though LE is looking at finances.

I do think the cold case unit is a fantastic idea.

 

[SuperSmith]

One of the new investigative avenues would be a forensic audit from the time of RFG's salary increase. There has been no claim that one has been done, though LE is looking at finances.

I do think the cold case unit is a fantastic idea.

IMO, again I think the money thing is a dead avenue and you know as well as I do that they cannot and will not dig into RG's finances again without good cause. This is especially true since he has been declared dead and the estate i is in Lara's hands.

There would have to be something inappropriate for them to even initiate a forensic audit. Example of that would be tax evasion, missing county money, payoff, bribes etc. None of this is or will be found so I think its a wasted effort to discuss it.

Regarding the cold case unit I was disappointed to read that the case hasn't been submitted yet especially since MR is the lead detective and VP of this unit. They even list his credentials as being on the Gricar case.

I wonder if the family must submit it or if MR can or both?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It appears that a number of MC folks have heard about the mine shaft theory. The ones I talked to seemed to feel that if RG had been "taken care of" by a MC, that he would have been found in a manner that would suggest that messing with a particular MC would not be advisable. If they were to get rid of evidence, using a backhoe in a members or friends farm field or a large concrete pour project would be less of a hassle than trying to find a mine shaft to dump a bunch of evidence down. None of the guys I talked to even knew of any mine shafts, and considering we are close to Quarryville and Nickle Mines, I found that interesting. Some folks here at work have heard rumors of mine shafts in the coal areas, but none had ever seen any.

There is an abandoned nickle mine near Nickle Mine in Bart Township. It stopped working in the 1890's and is flooded, not sealed; it floods fairly quickly, because it was closed in the 1860's and had to be pumped out when reopened later that century. Of the three others listed in the area one is a quarry, one was a claim, and the other was an open pit.

I think the BPD/FBI was right in giving the theory "the shaft."

On the second point, I had to go back to 1930 to find a vanished public official who might have targeted. A few have been killed, but not hidden; there have been several this year, including in PA.

In reading the linked articles one thing that I noticed is that the Hell's Angels never tried to hide the bodies.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

IMO, again I think the money thing is a dead avenue and you know as well as I do that they cannot and will not dig into RG's finances again without good cause. This is especially true since he has been declared dead and the estate i is in Lara's hands.

There would have to be something inappropriate for them to even initiate a forensic audit. Example of that would be tax evasion, missing county money, payoff, bribes etc. None of this is or will be found so I think its a wasted effort to discuss it.

Regarding the cold case unit I was disappointed to read that the case hasn't been submitted yet especially since MR is the lead detective and VP of this unit. They even list his credentials as being on the Gricar case.

I wonder if the family must submit it or if MR can or both?

I'm not sure how anyone can say something won't be found, unless people look for it.

I would not find an audit inappropriate since it could lead to the whereabouts of, or at least what happened to, RFG. It would not involve the estate, as it would not cover the period of the trusteeship or what LG finally got.

The case is submitted by LE: https://www.aisocc.com/case-submittal.html