PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #11

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  • #661
First off, have a safe and enjoyable trip. :)

As always, respectfully snipped.


Curious about who drove the Mini 90% of the time.

If the was RG's normal transportation, why would RG put a vehicle he drove every (or almost every) day in PF's name?

Large Income.
No assets of any consequence including no car.
No will.

Looking at the big picture, this looks quite odd. In most cases when you see this type of situation, it is an individual who owns a business that has a high liability profile.

I am divorced and have adult children and a long term partner, yet I still own property. No way I would put everything in my partners name. Possibly in my sons name.

PEF had her own car, which she retained after the Mini was purchased. EG, wife #2 got the house, but it was not under water, and RFG should have gotten something in return.

Still a large amount of income not accounted for. Even if it was into a single payment life policy, there would still be a sizable bank account balance unless the policy was purchased just before RG went missing. If that were the case, LE should have realized it was a key indicator.

I don't fully buy that LE was satisfied with his financial records. I think there were questions and a bit of head scratching, but nothing they were going to tell the public about.

BBM.

You are correct, at least publicly.

LE has never said that they were satisfied, only that there was no large cash withdrawal.

The major problem that I have with estate planning is why didn't the family simply state it. Either TG was deliberately trying to mislead everyone that there was no estate planning or LG never bothered to tell him. That raises a red flag.

Suppose that in 2002, with his divorce settled, RFG made some major estate plans and established a trust or bought a single premium life policy or something like that. That doesn't make him look bad, at all. It make him look like a caring father. It doesn't make him look suicidal or planning to walk away either. It doesn't tell us how much money LG will get. There isn't a good reason not to release that information.

You have not answered the questions, but have shown why the questions should be raised. You are asking the right questions, IMO. That can be as important as getting the right answers. Good job! :)
 
  • #662
First off, have a safe and enjoyable trip. :)

As always, respectfully snipped.




PEF had her own car, which she retained after the Mini was purchased. EG, wife #2 got the house, but it was not under water, and RFG should have gotten something in return.



BBM.

You are correct, at least publicly.

LE has never said that they were satisfied, only that there was no large cash withdrawal.

The major problem that I have with estate planning is why didn't the family simply state it. Either TG was deliberately trying to mislead everyone that there was no estate planning or LG never bothered to tell him. That raises a red flag.

Suppose that in 2002, with his divorce settled, RFG made some major estate plans and established a trust or bought a single premium life policy or something like that. That doesn't make him look bad, at all. It make him look like a caring father. It doesn't make him look suicidal or planning to walk away either. It doesn't tell us how much money LG will get. There isn't a good reason not to release that information.

You have not answered the questions, but have shown why the questions should be raised. You are asking the right questions, IMO. That can be as important as getting the right answers. Good job! :)


I have some thoughts and questions about the money.
My largest concern is what each of the family members thought at the beginning of their public appeals, how that changed, and what the possible mitigating factor was in the change in statements and attitudes over a few years.
Also, we do not know when Ray might have either invested in annuities, stock plans, life insurance, or whatever else and we do not know when Lara became aware of same.

I think all of us can watch the family's and Patty's segments that aired on TV and although I'm sure they are heavily edited, the emotions and so forth change pretty dramatically from one press conference or TV show to the next.

At the beginning, it is believed that while Tony and Chris were afraid of suicide, Lara and Patty pushed foul play and justifiably so. Not much thought or time would probably be put into a case where the family said " Oh, he's on one of his adventures. He's a wanderer at heart and will come home when he feels the time is right". First of all, they would be lying to the police and to the public, because he was known to be a hard working DA. He probably didn't use all his PTO every year- no type A personality man I've known would use theirs. So they were justified and correct in doing and saying things which promoted active and vigorous investigation.

Later, not too much later, Patty asks Ray to just come home. Like he is a child who rode too far on his bike. Maybe she wasn't thinking clearly, or maybe she was so hurt that her reasoning was impaired. OR maybe something happened that has not been released to the public which caused her to change her pleas.

Did Lara follow Patty's line of thinking? I don't know for sure, but a lot of it might be answered in the financial planning, if there was any, and the date she found it out. Would Ray make long term financial plans and not tell Patty about them? I don't think so but I don't know what their levels of comfort were about money matters.

The thing that gets to me is Lara seeming to walk away from her dad emotionally and to put distance between herself and the investigation by saying " It's a closed chapter". She phoned in her testimony regarding the required statements to have him declared dead legally. Why? Was it too painful or was it too much trouble to fly cross country? Or did she not want to answer reporters' questions?

After going back and making a timeline of how the families' and Patty's responses changed over the period of the first 3-4 years after Ray disappeared, I think they all found out something which led them to believe he planned to leave them all. Noting the caveat that they all could be mistaken. I do not know if the change in attitude publicly ( where one puts on one's best possible demeanor) was related to possibly missing money or the emergence of the Mystery Woman... or something still unknown to the gen. public.

IF we were discussing my father, a father to an only child, an adopted daughter, I would have extreme doubts about him hooking up with a stranger at a shop 50 miles from home. I'd tend to think it was witness error, or maybe something inconsequential because I know my father loved his family above all else on this earth. It makes me so sad that Lara may not believe that her father loved enough to hang around for her wedding, possible grandchildren, her adult life in general.
And then there is Patty, who was planning her life around Ray's, planning to retire and travel the country in the Mini, something they had discussed for a long time, she said. Her life changed forever when he didn't return to her.. I wonder if she still asks herself what happened like she used to do? I tend to think so, unless she has info we don't have.

If the MW disclosure was not the reason for everyone to sigh wistfully and look away, then does that leave information about financial issues as the reason this chapter of their lives is closed and they all want to move on?
I don't know, but I think something concrete was presented to at least Lara, and possibly Lara and Patty. Not one family member is still in front of the cameras asking for help finding Mr. Gricar. I don't fault them, but I DO wonder why, when we have family members here still begging for searches and info on people who have been missing for decades, sometimes as long as 40-50 years. They never have given up hope. Why did the Gricar loved ones stop hoping? Stop asking for public help? Not renew any reward?

I think there are conundrums within this mystery. I fault no one, I have no theories or answers. I have extreme empathy for Lara, and I also feel sorry for Patty's loss. I am very sad that no one is pushing for answers, and also feel confused about this case compared to so many others where hope persists and there is no talk of death, not ever, not even many decades later. If you read the missing section much, then you know the cases I reference, and you understand the difference in attitudes and statements on record.
 
  • #663
Curious about who drove the Mini 90% of the time.
...

I'm curious what RG drove before the Mini was purchased. What did he do with his car and if the Mini was a gift for her (vanity license included) then why did he drive it all the time? I always found that odd.
 
  • #664
I think the attitude of Ray's family can be expressed as "defeated". I think initially all of them had the "hope" that Ray being missing could have been easily explained by him just needing some time to himself. As time passed the realization that he wasn't coming home hit home. If foul play pure sadness set in. If walk away believed then perhaps anger set in. Regardless as time marched on and the leads and communication diminished between family and LE the whole attitude could've turned to frustration. After the missed leads reported and the denial of BPD to kick the case to PSP or the AGO it then turned to defeat. JMO
 
  • #665
Initially, and by that I mean about a year after RFG disappeared, LG said, through her attorney that she thought RFG was alive.

Prior to becoming trustee, LG was fairly available to the press; that access declined after she had access. It trickled to a handful over a period of several years after that, right after Bosak began asking questions about the money. Literally.

PEF stopped talking around the time "Mystery Woman" began to be discussed. She did appear, in person, at the hearing.

The nephews immediate reaction was that it was suicide. TG has been uncertain over the years. He referred to the decision to declare RFG dead as an "administrative declaration." http://www.post-gazette.com/state/2...ears-later/stories/201107260158#ixzz1iQPRy49c

Prior to getting the Mini, RFG drove a red Mitsubishi Spider convertible. I can't say for sure that he didn't have one between the Spider and the Mini. I think there is a photo of him in it in the Disappeared episode. All accounts are that he was the principle driver of the Mini.
 
  • #666
  • #667
I just double checked Disappeared and the "review panel" is specifically looking at finances.
 
  • #668
  • #669
  • #670
I have seen the now dated Disappeared episode 9, "A Family's Curse". More to the point, LE certainly has access to the more recent filings in regard to the estate and has not even hinted at any red flags.
 
  • #671
Here is what we have on the money so far:

RFG was making in excess of $110,000 gross from his 2001 divorce until he disappeared. Pennsylvania Manual from that period.

RFG took out about $16,000 in cash from ATM's over a 2.5 year period (average $125 week). [Rickard later indicated it was $10 K over a shorter period of time.]

http://www.post-gazette.com/frontpa...n-photos-of-DA-his-look-alike-from-Texas.html


RFG had just over $100,000 in a joint account with LG (half of which would not be counted in the estate).

http://www.centredaily.com/2006/05/13/3802/missed-leads.html

"He was making a fair amount of money; but, at least from a forensic accounting standpoint, the thought is there that there should have been more cash." TG, 1/25/11

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/25/case-of-missing-pa-district-attorney-ray-gricar-baffles-police/

"You know, we have one person working on the financial part of it to try to create a picture of what went on financially." SPM, Disappeared, 2/28/11 [Taped over the summer of 2010]

Estate showed a balance of less than $2,000.
 
  • #672
I have seen the now dated Disappeared episode 9, "A Family's Curse". More to the point, LE certainly has access to the more recent filings in regard to the estate and has not even hinted at any red flags.

I have seen no more recent claims regarding the money aspects.

There was a suggestion that LE claimed that everything was accounted for with the money. Is there a link or a reference to it, or is that just an expression of an opinion?
 
  • #673
Is there a serious suggestion that something other than a full and complete accounting of RG's assets, upon declaration of death, was made to the PA Department of Revenue?
 
  • #674
Stacy Parks- Miller said that a task force would be looking into the finances of Ray Gricar. I do not know the date of her statement. However, J.J. reports it as being in 2010. Did you read his post?

Maybe a resident of PA, especially one with ties to the family and PA politicians as was stated earlier here tonight can find out when she was last interviewed for " Disappeared"? I do not think the Investigation Discovery channel even produces or airs new versions of "Disappeared" any longer, which is a horrible injustice to all the missing adults in this country.
 
  • #675
Is there a serious suggestion that something other than a full and complete accounting of RG's assets, upon declaration of death, was not made to the PA Department of Revenue?

I am not suggesting that there would be any attempt at tax evasion.

There could be a legitimate effort for tax avoidance; that is one of the purposes of estate planning. That could explain why the estate seems to be so low. That may not be the explanation, however.

There are legitimate questions about the lack of RFG's assets. Trackergd has now established that there were not a lot of assets in the estate.
 
  • #676
Stacy Parks- Miller said that a task force would be looking into the finances of Ray Gricar. I do not know the date of her statement. However, J.J. reports it as being in 2010. Did you read his post?

Maybe a resident of PA, especially one with ties to the family and PA politicians as was stated earlier here tonight can find out when she was last interviewed for " Disappeared"? I do not think the Investigation Discovery channel even produces or airs new versions of "Disappeared" any longer, which is a horrible injustice to all the missing adults in this country.

That is easy. :) Mid October to early November 2010. http://www.centredaily.com/2010/10/07/2257319/discovery-channel-series-investigating.html

The article was printed on 10/7/10, a Thursday. Next week would be 10/11, which was Columbus Day, and I'd expect the Courthouse to be closed, so figure 10/12 or later.

I thought it was 1-2 months earlier. :)
 
  • #677
Until or unless we know more about where money might have been invested, are we not at a point of beating a dead horse? Stacy Parks Miller can be seen and heard saying what J.J. and I each saw on " Disappeared". He has graciously provided a date for the statement's issuance.

None of us know, nor are we entitled to know details about Mr. Gricar's personal finances beyond what Trackergd obtained in the documents available to the public. IF the family had wanted to share any info, I'm SURE they would have gone to their posting buddies and shared it before now.




[modsnip]
 
  • #678
That is easy. :) Mid October to early November 2010. http://www.centredaily.com/2010/10/07/2257319/discovery-channel-series-investigating.html

The article was printed on 10/7/10, a Thursday. Next week would be 10/11, which was Columbus Day, and I'd expect the Courthouse to be closed, so figure 10/12 or later.

I thought it was 1-2 months earlier. :)

Thanks, J.J. I believe this should put an end to the endless back and forth.
I knew when it aired, I did not know when it was taped ( again). :)


[modsnip]
 
  • #679
I have and continue to feel the finances are a dead end but it was certainly worth the effort. Thanks again Tracker.
 
  • #680
Thanks, J.J. I believe this should put an end to the endless back and forth.
I knew when it aired, I did not know when it was taped ( again). :)


[modsnip]

They edited it a part about Sandusky, but that was obviously after the scandal broke on 11/4/11. There was no public disclosure of any connection to RFG until that point and the GJ investigation was not known until 3/31/11.
 
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