PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[J. J. in Phila]

Did RFG ever make other references to not owning property "in case he gets sued"?

Not that I am aware of.

I agree that is an odd statement to make about the Mini when he was all but immune from being sued for performing his duties as DA. He was not however immune from Civil Suit for matters not related to his duties.

I can't figure out any legitimate suit, or borderline one, out there.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Someone who could keep a secret of this magnitude for this many years and stay far away from anyone who might recognize her.

That would be next to impossible in Centre County.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

On the pre 9/11 money, RFG had gone full time in 1996; he donated the difference for that year to a charity. From 1997, he was grossing a minimum $105 K in salary. Wife #2, EG worked; her profession is listed as optician and, well not in that range, they are reasonably well paid.

He divorced wife #1, BG, in 1992. She was an assistant professor, and was probably making more yearly than he was from 1979. She was making enough in 1979, her first year, that RFG could be a stay at home dad.

 

[SeekingJana]

I'll start:

1. Cigarette ash, why is H leaning in on the passenger side, or in the car?

2. The Mystery Woman doesn't meet the description of anyone close to RFG and in the area at the time. Who is she? Was she seen with RFG on 4/16/05?

1) It's a parking lot. There were " many" cigarette butts removed from the scene and tested ( negative results for Gricar of course). The ash could have come from the parking lot, to a shoe, to the carpet. Secondary transfer as I believe it is. Ash would have some scent of cigarettes which would probably be stronger when the car was closed up for hours.

2) IMO, I think it's possible that the person in the role of helper could be Barbara Gray. She had ample reason to not want to see him get hurt or have his plans fall apart. Each thing would hurt Lara if it went badly wrong, and that's her daughter, too. Also, I don't recall her field of expertise off hand, but I seem to remember thinking that it dovetails into the theory that he could have left because of his life savings being sent to an overseas bank before the banking laws changed..
As far as ID, look at the photo of Patty with Barbara at the press conference. They look almost alike. They could be sisters!! Short hair, very petite ladies. Barbara is older, but it's not that evident if a person doesn't know Patty that well aside from her short haircut and small size ( short and small).
Since people were used to seeing Ray with an almost look-alike to Barbara, I think that it's possible that Barbara could have been seen with Ray before 4/15 and have been mistakenly ID' d as Patty. ( Helper had to make plans with Ray).

Last part of this- Ray would have trusted her to do what she had to do and keep quiet. Both were ( are) people of integrity and great intelligence.

3) Someone mentioned the helper " crouching or ducking". I don't think Barbara is over 5 ft tall, if that. Not much hiding was necessary if she was involved. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

 

[SeekingJana]

Just thought of something- IF BG was the helper, then the MW, if there was a woman with Ray in the SoS was most likely a decoy... One he picked out to chat up and maybe pal around with about women's jewelry or some other item- small talk here and there, not really together at all--that looked NOTHING like BG. Young, tall, longish hair, complete opposite of how one would describe BG.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipping again:

1) It's a parking lot. There were " many" cigarette butts removed from the scene and tested ( negative results for Gricar of course). The ash could have come from the parking lot, to a shoe, to the carpet. Secondary transfer as I believe it is. Ash would have some scent of cigarettes which would probably be stronger when the car was closed up for hours.

The ask could get in there by being tracked in, but nit the smell of smoke.

2) IMO, I think it's possible that the person in the role of helper could be Barbara Gray. She had ample reason to not want to see him get hurt or have his plans fall apart. Each thing would hurt Lara if it went badly wrong, and that's her daughter, too. Also, I don't recall her field of expertise off hand, but I seem to remember thinking that it dovetails into the theory that he could have left because of his life savings being sent to an overseas bank before the banking laws changed..

There is no way, even with a wig, that BG could be mistaken for the Mystery Women; she is about 25 years older than the late 30's. The MW could have been random. If Buehner is right, and RFG was seen with the MW on 4/16, it would toss that theory.

This does bring up a point about the Helper, however. Under that theory, the Helper would have to be single, or the spouse would have to be away on the night of 4/15-4/16. That limits it a bit, but it would include BG, so far as I know.

 

[SeekingJana]

Snipping again:



The ask could get in there by being tracked in, but nit the smell of smoke.



There is no way, even with a wig, that BG could be mistaken for the Mystery Women; she is about 25 years older than the late 30's. The MW could have been random. If Buehner is right, and RFG was seen with the MW on 4/16, it would toss that theory.

This does bring up a point about the Helper, however. Under that theory, the Helper would have to be single, or the spouse would have to be away on the night of 4/15-4/16. That limits it a bit, but it would include BG, so far as I know.

1) Cigarette ash DOES smell of cigarette smoke, JJ. It's not odorless by any means. It's the end of the cigarette that burned, so it IS part of the cigarette.

2) You twisted my words. IF ( and it may be a huge if, IDK) BG was the helper, then Ray may have simply picked out a tallish younger woman to pal around with enough to possibly be " seen" together.. That way, if people had eyewitness reports of sightings, ( and they did have), they would describe Ray as having been seen with a tallish, youngish woman. Probably a total Jane Doe who was just someone in the crowd alone who seemed friendly.
Or maybe Ivy Butterworth.
The point is that he would have naturally picked out someone who looked extremely different from BG ( which isn't hard to find in my part of the country as we are mostly tall, look young and have long hair here). He would not want Lara's mother to be connected publicly with their plans for obvious reasons.

The person he spent the night with in Lewisburg or elsewhere was BG. Comfy with her, no hang ups about being in somewhat close proximity to his ex wife.. It fits so well. As to the " where" they stayed, maybe in a town outside Lewisburg. Got there late in 2nd car, left early. A " no tell motel" type of chain motel on the highway.. Or at the house of a close friend. We don't know, and I doubt we ever know. Someone they had known for a long time and trusted wouldn't talk, would they?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped again.

1) Cigarette ash DOES smell of cigarette smoke, JJ. It's not odorless by any means. It's the end of the cigarette that burned, so it IS part of the cigarette.

It should not create too much of a scent.

2) You twisted my words. IF ( and it may be a huge if, IDK) BG was the helper, then Ray may have simply picked out a tallish younger woman to pal around with enough to possibly be " seen" together.. That way, if people had eyewitness reports of sightings, ( and they did have), they would describe Ray as having been seen with a tallish, youngish woman. Probably a total Jane Doe who was just someone in the crowd alone who seemed friendly.

I'm looking for the weak points in the theory. It is possible that it was just another shopper.

BG, obviously, would be on the "helper" list. An extra incentive would be that her daughter be an heir.

Also, she could fit the incredibly vague description of the woman seen at the Southfield sighting.

 

[BigCat]

The money would not be dirty, as such, but in theory, there could be tax problems. Also, there may be civil questions relating to not disclosing it to #2.

Respectfully snipped

Disreputable persons manage to get loads and loads of dirty money in and out of the US daily. How challenging would it be for a respectable District Attorney to get non-dirty money into the US? We're not talking about drug kingpin-sized haul here. I'm not even 100% clear why he couldn't just wire the money (in increments, if necessary). How would #2 even find out about the money? And even if he had tax problems, I would think paying a penalty would be more attractive than completely vanishing.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped

Disreputable persons manage to get loads and loads of dirty money in and out of the US daily. How challenging would it be for a respectable District Attorney to get non-dirty money into the US? We're not talking about drug kingpin-sized haul here. I'm not even 100% clear why he couldn't just wire the money (in increments, if necessary). How would #2 even find out about the money? And even if he had tax problems, I would think paying a penalty would be more attractive than completely vanishing.

#2, EG would not find out. After 9/11, getting money into the US would be substantially more difficult. Spitzer got caught up in wire transfers of less than $10 K.

There would also be the problem of not reporting it in court during the divorce. That could create, in theory at least, some additional problems.

Again, a reason.

 

[SeekingJana]

Snipped again.



It should not create too much of a scent.



I'm looking for the weak points in the theory. It is possible that it was just another shopper.

BG, obviously, would be on the "helper" list. An extra incentive would be that her daughter be an heir.

Also, she could fit the incredibly vague description of the woman seen at the Southfield sighting.

Since neither of us smelled the interior of the car, I guess we are pretty much in agreement that it's possible that the helper did smoke, and dropped some ash, or it was transferred from soles of shoes from the parking lot. OK?

BG is my top pick for helper because of all the reasons you and I have mentioned here. Also, as a woman with an ex- spouse with whom I share an offspring, I know that when there is trouble, the trust kicks in. I've posted in the private forum about how my very ill former spouse has turned to me for comfort in a time of distress, not his current wife.
He learned many years ago that I am loyal to him and trustworthy. Children bond couples in a unique way.
I expect that Ray and BG know each other extremely well after so many years together, too. He could count on her to think on her feet and she could count on him to have a plan B, contingencies, etc. if there was an unexpected glitch.

MAYBE they hit the road late on the 15th and took turns driving with one sleeping. The only thing they would have needed to worry about really, then, would be CCTV at gas stations and any dining areas.

Again, one of my " sidebars"- I realized recently ( duh) that traversing toll roads/ toll bridges, etc. are not a problem any longer IF the license plate is not on a BOLO list. Only the license plate and small portion of the car is photographed, not the driver's face. It used to be that the driver was visible, but not now. We just got a TXDOT image in the mail- toll paid at time of travel, but they wanted us to have the receipt, I guess.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

RFG was still close to BG; the divorce was more amicable. EG, for example had not spoken to RFG (according to her) since 2001.

If there was a 2nd car, LE would not know about it.

 

[SeekingJana]

RFG was still close to BG; the divorce was more amicable. EG, for example had not spoken to RFG (according to her) since 2001.

If there was a 2nd car, LE would not know about it.

I thought they would be close.
Agree that the whole point of having an " escape car" was to be incognito.

About time for me to head to bed. Night! Great ideas exchanged this evening. We could be wrong, but we are earnestly looking for the truth.
:countsheep:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I thought they would be close.
Agree that the whole point of having an " escape car" was to be incognito.

About time for me to head to bed. Night! Great ideas exchanged this evening. We could be wrong, but we are earnestly looking for the truth.
:countsheep:

Me too. I think we are making progress on finding at least weak spots in the theory.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just a point, from some who was having bad dreams, on motives.

If this is a walk away, there could be multiple motives:

1. To get money sheltered offshore.

2. To provide his pension benefits and insurance to his heirs.

3. To do something he enjoyed, traveling. Sloane thought he was traveling around Europe.

4. To avoid being questioned about old cases. Sandusky is a good example, but there could have been others. He could have been lenient with a defendant, and he re-offended. I call it "not wanting to be the ex-DA."

5. To show everyone how brilliant he is, but managing to vanish without a trace.

We know that 2, 3, and even 4 would be there. #1 just adds to it. If this was walkaway, #5 could be there as well. He could be reading these boards and the papers even now. At least until Sandusky, would anyone be talking about a retired DA?

 

[Trackergd]

That would be next to impossible in Centre County.

So...who did RFG know from outside Centre County that he had such strong connection with that she would keep such a secret?

 

[Trackergd]

Not that I am aware of.

I can't figure out any legitimate suit, or borderline one, out there.

And why the statement about the Mini seems out of place. I might consider it pre-planning so that when he was gone, the car would be hers.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So...who did RFG know from outside Centre County that he had such strong connection with that she would keep such a secret?

Petito, who is accounted for; it is not her. I found an old friend, female, whose name they forgot to redact in his FBI file. I cannot trace her, and I don't have a first name.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

And why the statement about the Mini seems out of place. I might consider it pre-planning so that when he was gone, the car would be hers.

I have been citing it as an example of that. Estate planning or a parting gift?

 

[MissJ]

How much money could he have put back to make up for leaving his pension behind? Mine is worth quite a sum.