PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[BigCat]

This is diametrically opposed to what has been reported in Gricar's disappearance. USUALLY, crimes follow a pattern. If Sandusky was not afraid to rape little boys in athletic room showers, then I don't think he would have gone to any trouble whatsoever to hide a dead man's body, to dispose of weapons, to probably have a car moved, and possibly cleaned up.
It doesn't fit what I think Sandusky's personality is-- he didn't care about anyone or anything until he did get caught, and then denial was his best friend. And I do believe he committed his crimes alone except for the silent enabling. I do not think anyone procured boys for him. I do not think anyone else was involved in the pedophilia. Only Sandusky. Others favor conspiracies, but I look at what is known and how we came to know it. Sandusky said he did bad bad things as far back as 1998. He never hid his criminal behavior.

Respectfully snipped

I agree with everything you've written about Sandusky. There is no doubt in mind that he acted alone. I also don't believe Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz, or Tim Curley ever molested a boy. Nevertheless, they covered up Sandusky assaulting a child and then lied about it in court (allegedly).

If someone harmed RFG over the Sandusky Scandal, it was not Sandusky himself, IMO; it was someone else with a lot to lose if the revelation of his crimes were made public.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think, in terms of foul play, we are going far afield whit "law enforcement" versus "prosecutor." It is rare for prosecutor to be murdered, very rare. It is probably less rare for a police officer to be murdered. An "average citizen" is more likely to be murdered than a prosecutor.

Respectfully snipped

I agree with everything you've written about Sandusky. There is no doubt in mind that he acted alone. I also don't believe Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz, or Tim Curley ever molested a boy. Nevertheless, they covered up Sandusky assaulting a child and then lied about it in court (allegedly).

If someone harmed RFG over the Sandusky Scandal, it was not Sandusky himself, IMO; it was someone else with a lot to lose if the revelation of his crimes were made public.

I agree that, if this was a Sandusky related murder, it wasn't Sandusky.

There is a problem with the theory. It would not be unusual for a DA to meet with a senior execitive of the major employer in the county. It would not explain driving fifty miles for a clandestine meeting.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

I think, in terms of foul play, we are going far afield whit "law enforcement" versus "prosecutor." It is rare for prosecutor to be murdered, very rare. It is probably less rare for a police officer to be murdered. An "average citizen" is more likely to be murdered than a prosecutor.



I agree that, if this was a Sandusky related murder, it wasn't Sandusky.

There is a problem with the theory. It would not be unusual for a DA to meet with a senior execitive of the major employer in the county. It would not explain driving fifty miles for a clandestine meeting.

Ok I ask Who made the time line and what time did it start on friday ? does anyone know also (favors) come in very strange ways sometimes small town county seat when you are in the circle everyone knows everyone can I ask a favor well them that person makes another person mad so this goes on for awhile also with different people in that town now something was dirty but only a few knew so something happens which the other people did not so the person who gave the favor could have been mad now everyone that maybe a favor was given was not sure how it would effect them within that circle and town would they come to someones rescue or keep quite and just say I dont know or make something up about it just what if RG did leave early friday morning and JJ you been asking how did he get out of lewisburg well CF seen something was it RG she is the only one who can say even the judge there is to a lot that does not fit for what was first said pages missing

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

Hey what is the street between cherry st and st mary's on 11/15 heading towards willamsport which you would be taking a left at the light from rt 45 onto 11/15

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ok I ask Who made the time line and what time did it start on friday ? does anyone know also (favors) come in very strange ways sometimes small town county seat when you are in the circle everyone knows everyone can I ask a favor well them that person makes another person mad so this goes on for awhile also with different people in that town now something was dirty but only a few knew so something happens which the other people did not so the person who gave the favor could have been mad now everyone that maybe a favor was given was not sure how it would effect them within that circle and town would they come to someones rescue or keep quite and just say I dont know or make something up about it just what if RG did leave early friday morning and JJ you been asking how did he get out of lewisburg well CF seen something was it RG she is the only one who can say even the judge there is to a lot that does not fit for what was first said pages missing

I have an old one on the witness sightings.

The Fenton sighting has a problem; RFG was not on the security camera video tape. The judge, now retired, David Grine, is not sure if he saw RFG on 4/15 or 4/14.

My guess is that RFG could have left Bellefonte as late as 11:20 AM.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Hey what is the street between cherry st and st mary's on 11/15 heading towards willamsport which you would be taking a left at the light from rt 45 onto 11/15

I don't know what 11/15 is, but St. John Street is between, and parallel to St. Mary St. and Cherry Alley. The Mini was in a parking lot at the corner of Water Street and St. John. Photos are here: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just looking at the Fenton sighting (CF), I think it is possible that Fenton and Grine saw RFG on 4/14/05. Since he was in a different car, according to Fenton, that would be interesting, if accurate.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If the Fenton sighting is accurate, for either day, it would strongly point to walkaway.

If on 4/15, it would mean that RFG got another vehicle in Lewisburg, drove back to Bellefonte in that vehicle, then went back to Lewisburg in that vehicle. It would be consistent with the "helper" bringing the car to RFG in Lewisburg.

If on 4/14, it would be consistent with RFG getting the car to be driven by the helper on the next day.

If it could be established that RFG was driving an unknown vehicle on either day, the odds on walkaway would jump. It has not been established.

 

[Trackergd]

Have you talked to Fenton?

 

[Trackergd]

In any of your seaching, did you come across any information if RFG maintained his own finances or if they had a shared account? You did note that money was withdrawn on a regular basis, but it was not a large amount. Wondering if money was pulled out in cash over time and cached as part of a walkaway preplan.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Have you talked to Fenton?

Fenton is not speaking on the record.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

In any of your seaching, did you come across any information if RFG maintained his own finances or if they had a shared account? You did note that money was withdrawn on a regular basis, but it was not a large amount. Wondering if money was pulled out in cash over time and cached as part of a walkaway preplan.

The accounts were held jointly with his daughter. I have not heard of a joint account with PEF.

It was publicly reported that RFG had removed a total of $16 K in cash over a 2.5 year period. That is an average of about $125/week. I have been told that he used credit cards for most purchases, but $125/week is not a huge amount of cash.

It is not unusual for adults, especially single parent to have a join account with an adult child. If there some sort of health problem, where parent cannot write checks, e.g., the parent is in a coma the child can see that the bills are paid.

Also, the money in the account is considered to be half owned by the child for inheritance tax purposes. If RFG had $20,000 in a joint account with his daughter, it would be regarded as $10,000 for estate purposes. That tax rate is 7.5% and LG would owe $750. If he had the same money, just in his own name, the tax rate is the same, but it would be regarded as $20,000 for estate purposes; LG would pay $1,500.

Several years before my father became ill, he specifically put me on his accounts for just those purposes.

 

[Trackergd]

Fenton is not speaking on the record.

Interesting... How many individuals has Fenton spoken to "off the record"?

 

[Trackergd]

The accounts were held jointly with his daughter. I have not heard of a joint account with PEF.

It was publicly reported that RFG had removed a total of $16 K in cash over a 2.5 year period. That is an average of about $125/week. I have been told that he used credit cards for most purchases, but $125/week is not a huge amount of cash.

It is not unusual for adults, especially single parent to have a join account with an adult child. If there some sort of health problem, where parent cannot write checks, e.g., the parent is in a coma the child can see that the bills are paid.

Also, the money in the account is considered to be half owned by the child for inheritance tax purposes. If RFG had $20,000 in a joint account with his daughter, it would be regarded as $10,000 for estate purposes. That tax rate is 7.5% and LG would owe $750. If he had the same money, just in his own name, the tax rate is the same, but it would be regarded as $20,000 for estate purposes; LG would pay $1,500.

Several years before my father became ill, he specifically put me on his accounts for just those purposes.

I would be hard pressed to spend $125.00 per week on average on "incidentals". No estate planning that sticks out. Did not own very much in the way of physical property. If he paid for most things on a credit card, what the heck did he spend $125.00 a week on?

I have this odd feeling that the answer to this entire mystery is right in front of us and we are just not seeing it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Interesting... How many individuals has Fenton spoken to "off the record"?

Several.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I would be hard pressed to spend $125.00 per week on average on "incidentals". No estate planning that sticks out. Did not own very much in the way of physical property. If he paid for most things on a credit card, what the heck did he spend $125.00 a week on?

I have this odd feeling that the answer to this entire mystery is right in front of us and we are just not seeing it.

That is an average of $125/week. That includes vacations. Granted he could have had a few K in his sock drawer, enough to get a car and get out, but not enough to live for very long.

I would not rule out estate planning, but he would have had basically all most all of his money in that.

 

[Trackergd]

That is an average of $125/week. That includes vacations. Granted he could have had a few K in his sock drawer, enough to get a car and get out, but not enough to live for very long.

I would not rule out estate planning, but he would have had basically all most all of his money in that.

If that were the case, it would lean heavily towards walkaway or suicide. Nothing in his financial documentation gave me that impression. The tax record would have answered that question if there had been a simple trust and/or the balance in the joint account.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

In the case of CF, she is sure that it was around 3:00 PM on 4/15.

At the time, she was a law clerk to Judge David Grine. Grine left early on both 4/14 and 4/15 (3:00 PM).

The video shows that at about 3:00 PM on 4/15, CF was in the parking lot. It does not show the metallic colored car. I don't think it shows Grine either. CF remembered what she was was wearing on 4/15, and it is identical to what she is wearing in the video.

So here are possibilities:

1. CF and Grine saw the metallic colored car on 4/15, but it was in the street and out of camera range.

2. CF misremembers the day and it was on 4/14 (or earlier in the week).

3. Somebody used CGI to alter or create the video (which is next to impossible).

4. They are both mistaken (which is possible at least).

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

I don't know what 11/15 is, but St. John Street is between, and parallel to St. Mary St. and Cherry Alley. The Mini was in a parking lot at the corner of Water Street and St. John. Photos are here: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay

I should say RT 11-15 a hi way which runs into RT 45 going the other way lets see at the intersection at RT 45 and RT 11-15 you turn left so cherry st is about right there afetr turning left onto RT 11-15 stay to the far right go up 11-15 a little more a few hundred feet there should be another road there and take a right there if you go up RT 11-15 more uou will come to st marys st I do belive that no signs were marked back them as to 2005 maybe cherry st was but not the other 2 the middle one i will call the hidden one so is that one called st johns or did they take that road out that goes back into that area also at one time that was all about bare nothing in that area just a broken down shack that stood out like a sore thumb

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If that were the case, it would lean heavily towards walkaway or suicide. Nothing in his financial documentation gave me that impression. The tax record would have answered that question if there had been a simple trust and/or the balance in the joint account.

Some estate planning instruments, e.g. irrevocable trusts, single premium life insurance are not subject to estate taxes and are not reportable for an estate, which would account for things.

It could point to him spending a lot of money, but most people save for retirement. RFG would not be eligible for SS for about 7 years. PEF was planning to stop working. That would also point to suicide or walkaway.