PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

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  • #301
My sentiments exactly. The facts are few. We know for sure RFG is gone and has been declared dead. We know where his computer and hard drive ended up. We know where his car was found. We don't know the circumstances of his disappearance. My theory and yours is as good as anyone else's here. I refuse to be ridiculed or allow anyone else to be, to make us go away.

It was never my intent to ridicule anyone. We can agree to disagree on what we feel occurred in Lewisburg and the events that preceded that event. My comment "if you wish to argue" was strictly a point of debate comment, not meant to demean anyone. Where did I ever make comments that one could construe as my wanting anyone to "go away"?

I have invested time and money to help investigate this case. One of my investigative methods is to "spitball" theories in the hope that one seems to make sense. I also have both LE and SAR experience so it's not like this is my first time to the rodeo, or my first case.

I will make every attempt to chose my wording more carefully going forward.
 
  • #302
Probably the state bureau of investigation....because three people were alleged to have murdered a man. If they knew I had any involvement they would surely have killed me as they knew who I was and I had been to the home where the alleged murder took place. I was a government employee.

I know that you believe that giving his daughter his pension could be a motive for walkaway. I just do not see it that way. A father who loved his daughter that much, to me, would not give up that relationship. JMO

Respectfully, J.J and I have copies of RFG's records and have gone over them many times. Other than the pension, there is nothing in the records other than a joint bank account and the possibility of an insurance police and/or a simple will. RFG's daughter had the court seal the tax records (a minor curiosity to me), so we have no visibility of any inheritance planning. I have a copy of the petition to seal the tax records at RFG's daughters request.

From what we can assume based on what records I was able to obtain, there is no "obvious" planning for retirement or for inheritance.
 
  • #303
It was never my intent to ridicule anyone. We can agree to disagree on what we feel occurred in Lewisburg and the events that preceded that event. My comment "if you wish to argue" was strictly a point of debate comment, not meant to demean anyone. Where did I ever make comments that one could construe as my wanting anyone to "go away"?

I have invested time and money to help investigate this case. One of my investigative methods is to "spitball" theories in the hope that one seems to make sense. I also have both LE and SAR experience so it's not like this is my first time to the rodeo, or my first case.

I will make every attempt to chose my wording more carefully going forward.

I don't know why you are attacking me as I wasn't referring to you at all. I have enjoyed your posts as I know you are experienced and well informed. All your efforts are appreciated by me and others. ????
 
  • #304
Agree to disagree and scroll on.

:tyou:
 
  • #305
Probably the state bureau of investigation....because three people were alleged to have murdered a man. If they knew I had any involvement they would surely have killed me as they knew who I was and I had been to the home where the alleged murder took place. I was a government employee.

I know that you believe that giving his daughter his pension could be a motive for walkaway. I just do not see it that way. A father who loved his daughter that much, to me, would not give up that relationship. JMO

I don't think there is any reason to believe that RFG loved his daughter any more or any less than Roy Gricar loved his wife and sons. Roy Gricar chose to give up a relationship with those closing to him, why not his brother?
 
  • #306
I don't think there is any reason to believe that RFG loved his daughter any more or any less than Roy Gricar loved his wife and sons. Roy Gricar chose to give up a relationship with those closing to him, why not his brother?

If he killed himself (RFG) then I agree. My post was referring to RFG walking away so his daughter could have his pension. I would believe that if RFG killed himself he would want his daughter to have his pension. But I don't believe he walked away. JMO.
 
  • #307
Probably the state bureau of investigation....because three people were alleged to have murdered a man. If they knew I had any involvement they would surely have killed me as they knew who I was and I had been to the home where the alleged murder took place. I was a government employee.

I know that you believe that giving his daughter his pension could be a motive for walkaway. I just do not see it that way. A father who loved his daughter that much, to me, would not give up that relationship. JMO

I said motive for something voluntary, not necessarily motive for walkaway. :) There is a difference.

But yes, if you assume that RFG understood how his pension worked, if he wasn't there to collect it his heirs would get it. There is virtually no doubt that, less than nine months prior to his retirement, RFG understood how his pension worked.
 
  • #308
I don't think there is any reason to believe that RFG loved his daughter any more or any less than Roy Gricar loved his wife and sons. Roy Gricar chose to give up a relationship with those closing to him, why not his brother?

A serious mental illness has dire consequences if medication prescribed ( usually for lifetime) and periodic monitoring by a prescribing psychiatrist are not done to assess the effectiveness and dosages of the medication.
ROY Gricar had Bi-Polar illness ( formerly called Manic- Depressive disorder). He had a chemical imbalance in his brain.
He committed suicide because of the chemical imbalances, because he was not compliant with taking his medication as ordered ( as per his son Tony) and because he was not be actively monitored for compliance and for medication dosage effectiveness with blood tests and individual therapy.

That's why ROY and not his brother, RAY!!
 
  • #309
PA does not have a "bureau of investigation." It would be handled either by the PA Attorney General's Office (AGO) and/or the Pennsylvania State Police (PSP), if done at the state level. The OAG would probably have jurisdiction and would be making the decisions. The PSP wiould basically be the people in the field.

AGO and the PSP were the two agencies that handled the recent Sandusky investigation. The current AG released a report on it, and "investigation of the investigation." A copy of it, which looks at what they did, is here: http://www.wjactv.com/images/2014_06_23_REPORT_to_AG_ON_THE_SANDUSKY_INVESTIGATION.pdf It is a good example of the paper trial that an investigation generates.

If RFG was part of some investigation by the AGO or PSP, there would be no shortage of documentation. The PSP would not have taken more than 8 1/2 years to take the investigation.

J.J., she's talking about the FBI at the STATE ( or " Commonwealth") level.
The FBI most certainly does have a presence in all 50 states. PA is not exempt.
Here are the addresses for the two MAIN branches of the FBI in PA.

The correct term for these offices and the PA officers who man them, AND all field officers under their jurisdiction, are the Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation.
http://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field/listing_by_state/#p
 
  • #310
The first thing that I would note, in dealing with the estate is that there are methods to shield inheritance from taxes and to keep the inheritance out of the "estate." Regular life insurance is an example. These methods would also not show up on his financial disclosure statements.

Now, in all fairness, nobody familiar with RFG's finances has ever suggested that he used any of these options.

Respectfully, J.J and I have copies of RFG's records and have gone over them many times. Other than the pension, there is nothing in the records other than a joint bank account and the possibility of an insurance police and/or a simple will. RFG's daughter had the court seal the tax records (a minor curiosity to me), so we have no visibility of any inheritance planning. I have a copy of the petition to seal the tax records at RFG's daughters request.

From what we can assume based on what records I was able to obtain, there is no "obvious" planning for retirement or for inheritance.

We know what RFG's publicly stated plans were.

1. He would retire.

2. He would not practice law, i.e. he would rely on this pension.

3. His pension would be relatively generous (though unlikely to increase with inflation). My guess would be around $120 K.

4. He would retire at 60, which would mean that he could expect any Social Security for about 7 years.

5. We know that he was living with his girlfriend, who was working, and planned to stop working when he did. Because of that, his household income would drop.

We would expect anyone in that situation to save up some money for retirement. Some extra money for a trip, or for expenses, e.g. car repairs, a new dryer, or a new computer (those were mine in the last 4 months). He might also have house repairs. That appears not to have happened.

Now, what the explanations:

1. He had moved money offshore, without creating a record. That could create problems accessing it from the US, if the goal was to hide it.

2. He had moved money into estate planning instruments. He could not spend it in retirement.

3. He spent it on his loved ones, bought things for his SO and for his daughter. Again, RFG could not spend it.

4. He made some bad investments and lost it.

Possibilities 2, 3, and 4 are consistent with suicide. Possibility 1 is consistent with walkaway alone. Possibilities 2 and 3 are consistent with both walkaway and suicide, especially in combination with #1.

None of this is consistent with a guy who is about to retire and facing a loss of household income.

Even with all that said, someone could be hiding money offshore, and still be murdered. Someone could be doing estate planning and still be murdered. Someone could be spending generously on loved ones, and still be murdered. Someone could make bad investments and still be murdered.
 
  • #311
J.J., she's talking about the FBI at the STATE ( or " Commonwealth") level.
The FBI most certainly does have a presence in all 50 states. PA is not exempt.
Here are the addresses for the two MAIN branches of the FBI in PA.

The correct term for these offices and the PA officers who man them, AND all field officers under their jurisdiction, are the Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation.
http://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field/listing_by_state/#p

We do not have a state Bureau of Investigation in PA, which is an instrument of state government. In PA that would be handled by the PSP in combination with the PA Attorney General's Office.

The FBI, which is run by the federal government, would create the same problems. They would be the investigating agency, not the BPD.
 
  • #312
J.J., she's talking about the FBI at the STATE ( or " Commonwealth") level.
The FBI most certainly does have a presence in all 50 states. PA is not exempt.
Here are the addresses for the two MAIN branches of the FBI in PA.

The correct term for these offices and the PA officers who man them, AND all field officers under their jurisdiction, are the Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation.
http://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field/listing_by_state/#p

Thank you is not enough.
 
  • #313
J.J., she's talking about the FBI at the STATE ( or " Commonwealth") level.
The FBI most certainly does have a presence in all 50 states. PA is not exempt.
Here are the addresses for the two MAIN branches of the FBI in PA.

The correct term for these offices and the PA officers who man them, AND all field officers under their jurisdiction, are the Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation.
http://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field/listing_by_state/#p
That is exactly what I was talking about.
 
  • #314
A serious mental illness has dire consequences if medication prescribed ( usually for lifetime) and periodic monitoring by a prescribing psychiatrist are not done to assess the effectiveness and dosages of the medication.
ROY Gricar had Bi-Polar illness ( formerly called Manic- Depressive disorder). He had a chemical imbalance in his brain.
He committed suicide because of the chemical imbalances, because he was not compliant with taking his medication as ordered ( as per his son Tony) and because he was not be actively monitored for compliance and for medication dosage effectiveness with blood tests and individual therapy.

That's why ROY and not his brother, RAY!!


And there are a number of people that say that "RAY" was acting unusually prior to his disappearance. This includes a a court administrator, Shotts, a reporter, Joseph, a former county commissioner Wedler, the people at the Prison Board meeting the day prior to his disappearance, an ADA who knew him for 18 years, Arnold, and his girlfriend, Fornicola.

There is a possibility that RFG did suffer from the same or a similar problem, but it was undiagnosed. Both Bi-Polar Disorder and a predisposition for suicide related to it can be genetic.
 
  • #315
That is exactly what I was talking about.

And if this was an FBI operation, why were they, after nine years, still not the lead agency. Why would they yield to the BPD? Why would they yield to the PSP?
 
  • #316
The first thing that I would note, in dealing with the estate is that there are methods to shield inheritance from taxes and to keep the inheritance out of the "estate." Regular life insurance is an example. These methods would also not show up on his financial disclosure statements.

Now, in all fairness, nobody familiar with RFG's finances has ever suggested that he used any of these options.

So we are to believe because RFG didn't have a retirement account for years because he planned to off himself or walk away...... for years.



We know what RFG's publicly stated plans were.

1. He would retire.

2. He would not practice law, i.e. he would rely on this pension.

3. His pension would be relatively generous (though unlikely to increase with inflation). My guess would be around $120 K.

4. He would retire at 60, which would mean that he could expect any Social Security for about 7 years.

5. We know that he was living with his girlfriend, who was working, and planned to stop working when he did. Because of that, his household income would drop.

We would expect anyone in that situation to save up some money for retirement. Some extra money for a trip, or for expenses, e.g. car repairs, a new dryer, or a new computer (those were mine in the last 4 months). He might also have house repairs. That appears not to have happened.

Now, what the explanations:

1. He had moved money offshore, without creating a record. That could create problems accessing it from the US, if the goal was to hide it.

2. He had moved money into estate planning instruments. He could not spend it in retirement.

3. He spent it on his loved ones, bought things for his SO and for his daughter. Again, RFG could not spend it.

4. He made some bad investments and lost it.

Possibilities 2, 3, and 4 are consistent with suicide. Possibility 1 is consistent with walkaway alone. Possibilities 2 and 3 are consistent with both walkaway and suicide, especially in combination with #1.

None of this is consistent with a guy who is about to retire and facing a loss of household income.

Even with all that said, someone could be hiding money offshore, and still be murdered. Someone could be doing estate planning and still be murdered. Someone could be spending generously on loved ones, and still be murdered. Someone could make bad investments and still be murdered.

So we are to believe that because he did no estate planning (many people don't) he was planning all those years to off himself or to walk away?
 
  • #317
So we are to believe that because he did no estate planning (many people don't) he was planning all those years to off himself or to walk away?

No, we are to believe that if RFG did do a lot of estate planning, tying up a lot of funds that could be used in retirement, it is more likely that his disappearance is voluntary.
 
  • #318
And there are a number of people that say that "RAY" was acting unusually prior to his disappearance. This includes a a court administrator, Shotts, a reporter, Joseph, a former county commissioner Wedler, the people at the Prison Board meeting the day prior to his disappearance, an ADA who knew him for 18 years, Arnold, and his girlfriend, Fornicola.

There is a possibility that RFG did suffer from the same or a similar problem, but it was undiagnosed. Both Bi-Polar Disorder and a predisposition for suicide related to it can be genetic.

Yes, I was suggesting the possibility that it could have been undiagnosed. There is an undeniable genetic component to mental illness. (And it should be noted that both Roy's suicide and Ray's disappearance coincided with their retirements)

But even if we exclude family history, RFG was in a high risk demographic for suicide. Conversely, he was in a low risk demographic for homicide.
 
  • #319
No, we are to believe that if RFG did do a lot of estate planning, tying up a lot of funds that could be used in retirement, it is more likely that his disappearance is voluntary.

I'm sorry if I'm being dense but I don't get your position and I'd like to. Can you explain?
 
  • #320
Yes, I was suggesting the possibility that it could have been undiagnosed. There is an undeniable genetic component to mental illness. (And it should be noted that both Roy's suicide and Ray's disappearance coincided with their retirements)

But even if we exclude family history, RFG was in a high risk demographic for suicide. Conversely, he was in a low risk demographic for homicide.

ITA. I think suicide is possible. But where is the body?
 
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