PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[SeekingJana]

Snipped a bit.



First, if you will note the list of state agencies, and go down to PA, it mentions two agencies, the PSP and the PA AGO.

Second, if RFG was working under cover for either or both agencies, it would not have taken either one of them 8 1/2 years to take the case as the lead agency.

The names of the office buildings housing the state Bureau of Investigation are different but believe me, there are state Bureau of Investigation officers in every state capitol and also field officers within major metro areas at all times. You can believe me or you can not. I know it's true because I've dealt with them in 2 different states as a witness to federal crimes now, and I have no concern whatsoever that they were the state's version of the FBI, wherever their offices are officially located. Matters not, they are field officers unless it is a federal case to begin with or a case where the presiding LE branch asks them to take over. This is so well known, it's like reciting the alphabet.
Who, other than you, said he was " working undercover" for any agency in PA for the past 9 years? This is a new one on me, and it's laughably crazy.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The names of the office buildings housing the state Bureau of Investigation are different but believe me, there are state Bureau of Investigation officers in every state capitol and also field officers within major metro areas at all times. You can believe me or you can not. I know it's true because I've dealt with them in 2 different states as a witness to federal crimes now, and I have no concern whatsoever that they were the state's version of the FBI, wherever their offices are officially located. Matters not, they are field officers unless it is a federal case to begin with or a case where the presiding LE branch asks them to take over. This is so well known, it's like reciting the alphabet.
Who, other than you, said he was " working undercover" for any agency in PA for the past 9 years? This is a new one on me, and it's laughably crazy.

Look, PA does not have its government set up the way you describe it. Even according to the link you posted, it would be either Pennsylvania State Police or the Pennsylvania Office of Attorney General. Those are the two state agencies that would handle an undercover work in Pennsylvania, not a separate, and mythical, "Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation."

Miss J suggested that RFG may have been under cover in 2005, and was murdered in the course of that work. Okay, neither of those two agencies, that does under cover operations, was willing to become the lead agency for the Gricar investigation until 8 1/2 years later. That would not be the situation if RFG disappeared while in the course of undercover work for either the PSP or the PA OAG. We can rule that out.

 

[SeekingJana]

All 50 states plus D.C. have state Bureau of Investigation agents. Why don't you go back to the link I provided with the offices in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh and call one of them in the AM and ask them where they are and what they do? I didn't make the info up about the offices in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

The code won't copy to WS so here is the info. You don't even have to look for it:

FBI PHILADELPHIA
8th Floor
William J. Green FOB
600 Arch St.
Philadelphia, PA 19106
philadelphia.fbi.gov
(215) 418-4000

FBI PITTSBURGH
3311 East Carson St.
Pittsburgh, PA 15203
pittsburgh.fbi.gov.
(412) 432-4000

 

[J. J. in Phila]

All 50 states plus D.C. have state Bureau of Investigation agents. Why don't you go back to the link I provided with the offices in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh and call one of them in the AM and ask them where they are and what they do? I didn't make the info up about the offices in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

The code won't copy to WS so here is the info. You don't even have to look for it:

FBI PHILADELPHIA
8th Floor
William J. Green FOB
600 Arch St.
Philadelphia, PA 19106
philadelphia.fbi.gov
(215) 418-4000

FBI PITTSBURGH
3311 East Carson St.
Pittsburgh, PA 15203
pittsburgh.fbi.gov.
(412) 432-4000

Neither of which is a state agency.

Further, if RFG were working for the FBI on 4/15/05, the FBI would be the lead agency. They would not be passing it off to the Bellefonte Police Department. That is the fundamental flaw in every undercover theory.

You can look at the Luna case. He was an Assistant US Attorney. What agencies investigated his death? The PSP and the FBI, both leading their own investigations. What agency never was the lead investigator in RFG's case? The FBI. What agency was not the lead investigator in RFG's case? For the first 8 1/2 years, the PSP. If he had been working undercover either agency, neither would have stayed out of the case for 8 1/2 days, and probably not 8 1/2 hours. They would have been on top of it.

We can rule out that RFG was working undercover for the PA OAG/PSP or the FBI.

 

[SeekingJana]

Neither of which is a state agency.

Further, if RFG were working for the FBI on 4/15/05, the FBI would be the lead agency. They would not be passing it off to the Bellefonte Police Department. That is the fundamental flaw in every undercover theory.

You can look at the Luna case. He was an Assistant US Attorney. What agencies investigated his death? The PSP and the FBI, both leading their own investigations. What agency never was the lead investigator in RFG's case? The FBI. What agency was not the lead investigator in RFG's case? For the first 8 1/2 years, the PSP. If he had been working undercover either agency, neither would have stayed out of the case for 8 1/2 days, and probably not 8 1/2 hours. They would have been on top of it.

We can rule out that RFG was working undercover for the PA OAG/PSP or the FBI.

I. Never. Said. He. Worked. For. FBI.
Stop saying this to me. I never thought he was undercover in PA. You are creating a " Straw Man" argument and I won't fall for it. I never said a word about the man remaining in PA. I do not think he did, if he stayed alive, that is.
PBI-Pa. Bureau of Investigation exists. I have given you two offices to check out. Don't take my word for it but don't dispute the facts. Check it out for yourself. You are on one track about most things in this case. Like that Gricar wrote down everything, so since there is NO record of this or that on his calendars or in his notes ( like you've seen his calendars or his notes????) then there was no meeting anywhere... No plans. Nothing.
That because you haven't seen the income taxes filed by Lara after Ray's disappearance, you think there's no sign of any trust fund. If you can't see it, it doesn't exist. No one has to prove that he did have savings if he did beyond what is available to the public, but you won't believe they could have been in a joint account because you can't see the proof. You aren't an investigator on the case, so you don't get to see the things they see, but don't tell us about.

The PBI thing is going right down the same path of " disbelief" in spite of factual evidence. I have proven that the offices, with Pa. Bureau of Investigation officers inside, exist. You can't prove that they don't, which is your usual tactic. " Say it doesn't exist because we haven't seen it". We haven't seen much of anything in almost 10 years, but Ray Gricar existed or exists. IDK which and YDK which, sadly.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit:

I. Never. Said. He. Worked. For. FBI.
Stop saying this to me. I never thought he was undercover in PA. You are creating a " Straw Man" argument and I won't fall for it. I never said a word about the man remaining in PA. I do not think he did, if he stayed alive, that is.

As I have indicated, Miss J raised the possibility of RFG working under cover.

Okay, there are a limited number of agencies that run an undercover operation that could involve a DA as working under cover. I have listed them:

1. The Pennsylvania State Police.

2. The Pennsylvania Office of the Attorney General.

3. The Federal Bureau Of Investigation.

The third one, and the name "Federal" indicates, is part of the United States government, a national government. As the name "Pennsylvania" indicates, the first two are part of the government of Pennsylvania, which is a state.

PBI-Pa. Bureau of Investigation exists. I have given you two offices to check out. Don't take my word for it but don't dispute the facts. Check it out for yourself.

I have. The first link posted said, for Pennsylvania, said this:

Pennsylvania

Pennsylvania Office of the Attorney General – Bureau of Criminal Investigations
Pennsylvania State Police – Bureau of Criminal Investigation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_bureau_of_investigation

BBM

Note that both of those are given under my list as numbers 2 and 1 respectively.

The second reference was for the "FBI." Now, the "F" in FBI stands for "Federal," and that refers to the Federal government. It is the third one on my list.

You are on one track about most things in this case. Like that Gricar wrote down everything, so since there is NO record of this or that on his calendars or in his notes ( like you've seen his calendars or his notes????) then there was no meeting anywhere... No plans. Nothing.

Yes, because there is usually a paper/electronic trail for a meeting, unless someone is trying to hide it. And not hide it from the general public, but from family members and/or LE.

That because you haven't seen the income taxes filed by Lara after Ray's disappearance, you think there's no sign of any trust fund. If you can't see it, it doesn't exist. No one has to prove that he did have savings if he did beyond what is available to the public, but you won't believe they could have been in a joint account because you can't see the proof. You aren't an investigator on the case, so you don't get to see the things they see, but don't tell us about.

The only thing that I have said is that it would be possible to have some instruments that could protect wealth and keep funds out of the estate; that would not show up on inheritance tax. It would, due to its nature preclude spending it. For example, if someone should put his money into an irrevocable trust, it will be subject to estate taxes at death, but the person can't use it for some other purposes.

The PBI thing is going right down the same path of " disbelief" in spite of factual evidence. I have proven that the offices, with Pa. Bureau of Investigation officers inside, exist. You can't prove that they don't, which is your usual tactic. " Say it doesn't exist because we haven't seen it". We haven't seen much of anything in almost 10 years, but Ray Gricar existed or exists. IDK which and YDK which, sadly.

We have seen the value of the estate, and the documents have been posted. We do know how little interest RFG had in the two years prior to his disappearance, because the documents have been posted.

Any poster is free to believe that the "Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation" or "PBI" exists, but belief and reality are two different things. In reality, it does not exist.

There is a "Bureau of Criminal Investigations," that is part of the Pennsylvania Office of the Attorney General. http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/theoffice.aspx?id=455

There is a "Bureau of Criminal Investigation," that is part of the Pennsylvania State Police. http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/psp/4451/hide_-_psp_bureau_list/479957

There is a "Federal Bureau of Investigation" which is national, not state: http://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field

Perhaps someone can actually find a link to to the "Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation." I suspect it is located near a mine shaft in "Quarryville, Bucks County."

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Now, I cannot see where RFG working undercover, and being murdered is likely, there are a few foul play possibilities open.

1. RFG was going to meet a lover, or a least someone he didn't want PEF to know he was meeting. That could explain some aspects:

A. No paper trial.

B. The trip, phone call and leaving before lunch.

C. Some of activities in Lewisburg, e.g. parking and waiting for the other person two show up.

D. Acting unusually, especially if he wanted to end it.

E. The witness that saw RFG with a woman.

F. Staying overnight.



2. I don't like to think about this one, but RFG doing something nefarious. That could explain:

A. No paper trial.

B. The trip, phone call and leaving before lunch.

C. Some of activities in Lewisburg, e.g. parking and waiting for the other person two show up.

D. Acting unusually.

Neither would explain the money situation.

 

[MissJ]

Look, PA does not have its government set up the way you describe it. Even according to the link you posted, it would be either Pennsylvania State Police or the Pennsylvania Office of Attorney General. Those are the two state agencies that would handle an undercover work in Pennsylvania, not a separate, and mythical, "Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation."

Miss J suggested that RFG may have been under cover in 2005, and was murdered in the course of that work. Okay, neither of those two agencies, that does under cover operations, was willing to become the lead agency for the Gricar investigation until 8 1/2 years later. That would not be the situation if RFG disappeared while in the course of undercover work for either the PSP or the PA OAG. We can rule that out.

I think I said he might have been working with another agency or meeting with them. Under cover was not my word.

 

[Trackergd]

ITA. I think suicide is possible. But where is the body?

Precisely my question.

If it is in the woods, it is still undiscovered. There is a small chance that a hiker or hunter will stumble across it.

If it is in the river, odds are it will never be found.

J.J. has suggested some possible search areas that I agree with.

 

[MissJ]

All 50 states plus D.C. have state Bureau of Investigation agents. Why don't you go back to the link I provided with the offices in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh and call one of them in the AM and ask them where they are and what they do? I didn't make the info up about the offices in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

The code won't copy to WS so here is the info. You don't even have to look for it:

FBI PHILADELPHIA
8th Floor
William J. Green FOB
600 Arch St.
Philadelphia, PA 19106
philadelphia.fbi.gov
(215) 418-4000

FBI PITTSBURGH
3311 East Carson St.
Pittsburgh, PA 15203
pittsburgh.fbi.gov.
(412) 432-4000

PA does....its called BCI still a state investigative agency. Thanks

 

[Trackergd]

Having been in LE, I decided to make a couple of phone calls.

There is a Bureau of Criminal Investigation that is a division of the Pennsylvania State Police. http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/psp/4451/hide_-_psp_pacic_overview/481156

There is a Bureau of Criminal Investigations that is part of the Pennsylvania Attorney Generals Office. http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/theoffice.aspx?id=455

These are both divisions of State Agencies and are not stand alone.

The FBI is a Federal agency and it's Agents are Federal Agents that report to their superiors, not to state agencies. They do offer assistance to state agencies such as the BAU.

I respectfully submit we are getting caught up in semantics.

BFPD and PSP are the two agencies involved in this case. PSP (if you check the link) provide much the same services that the FBI would to a rural PD.

According to the Trooper I spoke to (just to double check), PSP is the lead agency in PA along with the State Attorney Generals office. The FBI has jurisdiction in Federal Cases. It assists upon request from State or Rural Law Enforcement. It remains as a resource as long as needed or unless the case takes on one or more federal elements, then it makes a decision to take over the case. Of course there are some exceptions that they did not care to discuss in detail that involve Homeland Defense.

Hope this helps!

 

[MissJ]

Having been in LE, I decided to make a couple of phone calls.

There is a Bureau of Criminal Investigation that is a division of the Pennsylvania State Police. http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/psp/4451/hide_-_psp_pacic_overview/481156

There is a Bureau of Criminal Investigations that is part of the Pennsylvania Attorney Generals Office. http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/theoffice.aspx?id=455

These are both divisions of State Agencies and are not stand alone.

The FBI is a Federal agency and it's Agents are Federal Agents that report to their superiors, not to state agencies. They do offer assistance to state agencies such as the BAU.

I respectfully submit we are getting caught up in semantics.

BFPD and PSP are the two agencies involved in this case. PSP (if you check the link) provide much the same services that the FBI would to a rural PD.

According to the Trooper I spoke to (just to double check), PSP is the lead agency in PA along with the State Attorney Generals office. The FBI has jurisdiction in Federal Cases. It assists upon request from State or Rural Law Enforcement. It remains as a resource as long as needed or unless the case takes on one or more federal elements, then it makes a decision to take over the case. Of course there are some exceptions that they did not care to discuss in detail that involve Homeland Defense.

Hope this helps!

It does. Thanks. Some states call them BCI and some State of---------Bureau of Criminal Investigation. My father was a homicide detective in a large east coast city. I worked Medical-legal myself as well as forensic. AFIK my father never discussed case details til the case was solved. There is much we don't know about RFG and I can believe he may have killed himself. My ex was at Wright Pat. when Roy Gricar killed himself. IIRC his circumstances were kind of odd too.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think I said he might have been working with another agency or meeting with them. Under cover was not my word.

You might not have used the word "undercover," but it was that the purpose for the trip involved this agency.

I would assume that there was not a suggestion that this other agency murdered him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It does. Thanks. Some states call them BCI and some State of---------Bureau of Criminal Investigation. My father was a homicide detective in a large east coast city. I worked Medical-legal myself as well as forensic. AFIK my father never discussed case details til the case was solved. There is much we don't know about RFG and I can believe he may have killed himself. My ex was at Wright Pat. when Roy Gricar killed himself. IIRC his circumstances were kind of odd too.

In PA, it is the State Police or Office of the Attorney General.

In this case, neither agency took the case for 8 1/2 years, which makes it a virtual impossibility that RFG was going to some type of clandestine meeting with either agency.

 

[MissJ]

You might not have used the word "undercover," but it was that the purpose for the trip involved this agency.

I would assume that there was not a suggestion that this other agency murdered him.

Uh, no. Lol.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Uh, no. Lol.

Okay, so the possibility being submitted is that RFG was either going to Lewisburg to meet with someone from one of these agencies (PSP or PA OAG), clandestinely, or that he was going to Lewisburg at the request of these other agencies to meet someone (that would be the "undercover" aspect), correct?

 

[MissJ]

PA. does have a Bureau of criminal investigation...a state agency. It doesn't matter which agency it originates from it is a state investigative resource.
Most if not all states have them.

 

[MissJ]

Okay, so the possibility being submitted is that RFG was either going to Lewisburg to meet with someone from one of these agencies (PSP or PA OAG), clandestinely, or that he was going to Lewisburg at the request of these other agencies to meet someone (that would be the "undercover" aspect), correct?

I think I said there might have been no notes....

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Cross post, sorry.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think I said there might have been no notes....

I am not asking at this point about notes.

The possibility being submitted is that RFG was either going to Lewisburg to meet with someone from one of these agencies (PSP or PA OAG), clandestinely, or that he was going to Lewisburg at the request of these other agencies to meet someone (that would be the "undercover" aspect), is that a fair summary?