PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[MissJ]

Genetics could have been one reason.

RFG was not the kind of the person who would seek medical, or psychological, help. He had some doubts that his brother would commit suicide, despite Roy having a long, and documented, history of bipolar disorder. Sloane said, "He wouldn't even take an aspirin."

I looked at the Sharon Comitz is one example. RFG actually said that because Comitz could plan, she didn't have a psychological problem. http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,149520,00.html

The one time he was sanctioned by a judge, it was for an attempt to get a physician to withdraw as an expert witness. http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_04049209-3057-5e54-9091-c17e93cd66b9.html

The pattern is there.

There is also the possibility of his financial situation not being what he wanted it to be. Assume that the reason for his low assets was bad investments. That could add to it. I don't think that is the case, but I can't rule it out.

JMO but if he had planned on retirement and his retirement wasn't enough for the life he had planned he could have been panicked and in despair. JMO again but I still doubt he had a tidy cash reserve somewhere that he felt he could live on the rest of his life. Maybe the appointment he had was with himself for suicide. Men are planners (in my experience)when it comes to suicide, as I've seen many of them. If he killed himself it wasn't an impulse.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JMO but if he had planned on retirement and his retirement wasn't enough for the life he had planned he could have been panicked and in despair. JMO again but I still doubt he had a tidy cash reserve somewhere that he felt he could live on the rest of his life. Maybe the appointment he had was with himself for suicide. Men are planners (in my experience)when it comes to suicide, as I've seen many of them. If he killed himself it wasn't an impulse.

The thing is, RFG grossed more than $100 K, in salary, for the 7 1/2 years prior to his disappearance. His estate (exclusive of his pension), was less than $25 K. That is a lot of money to spend, even considering he was divorced.

Consider as well that his wife worked, while they were married.

 

[MissJ]

The thing is, RFG grossed more than $100 K, in salary, for the 7 1/2 years prior to his disappearance. His estate (exclusive of his pension), was less than $25 K. That is a lot of money to spend, even considering he was divorced.

Consider as well that his wife worked, while they were married.

I know but it is amazing how one can adjust their spending habits to their income and spend.........

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I know but it is amazing how one can adjust their spending habits to their income and spend.........

That is a possibility, but it is not exactly planning for retirement. That is one of my points. It does look like RFG was planning, financially, for retirement.

That means something voluntary, but not necessarily walkaway. It also points to suicide.

 

[SeekingJana]

I know but it is amazing how one can adjust their spending habits to their income and spend.........

I can attest to this!!! I was happier being single and making $50,000 a year than I am now in a much higher income bracket but with a spouse. We absolutely do spend more than I did, and I think we are less happy ( I know I am).

 

[MissJ]

That is a possibility, but it is not exactly planning for retirement. That is one of my points. It does look like RFG was planning, financially, for retirement.

That means something voluntary, but not necessarily walkaway. It also points to suicide.

Unfortunately he may have made bad investments. He may also think that his pension IS planning for retirement. One of my retirement plans has consistently lost for the last ten years and though I change the risk status it doesn't seem to help. It is utterly devastating. Still, not all emotional pain can be attached to a specific source. Sometimes it is a deep dark cloud that envelopes your heart and soul and one will give anything for it to stop.

 

[MissJ]

I can attest to this!!! I was happier being single and making $50,000 a year than I am now in a much higher income bracket but with a spouse. We absolutely do spend more than I did, and I think we are less happy ( I know I am).

I know very well where you are coming from. I had a wealthy ex who spent his income on his toys. To look at him one would think he was a pauper.

 

[SeekingJana]

I know very well where you are coming from. I had a wealthy ex who spent his income on his toys. To look at him one would think he was a pauper.

Oh, we look very prosperous ( relatively speaking, not like Hollywood celebs or anything) but happiness comes from within not from material things-- if basic needs are met.

Personally, I think that when we look at Ray's expenses, which were practically nil, then he could have retired and lived a nice, quiet life in a nice, quiet little town like Bellefonte without any struggles or hassles beyond the normal ones in life. Plus, Patty's 19 years or so younger. She is still working and could have done so after Ray retired. Things change, people change, needs change.
IDK what exactly changed in Ray's life but I really don't think he was inflexible so as not to be able to make contingency plans if there was a money issue. Inflexibility is one of the hallmark signs of an un-intelligent person. I think he was very intelligent.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Oh, we look very prosperous ( relatively speaking, not like Hollywood celebs or anything) but happiness comes from within not from material things-- if basic needs are met.

Personally, I think that when we look at Ray's expenses, which were practically nil, then he could have retired and lived a nice, quiet life in a nice, quiet little town like Bellefonte without any struggles or hassles beyond the normal ones in life. Plus, Patty's 19 years or so younger. She is still working and could have done so after Ray retired. Things change, people change, needs change.
IDK what exactly changed in Ray's life but I really don't think he was inflexible so as not to be able to make contingency plans if there was a money issue. Inflexibility is one of the hallmark signs of an un-intelligent person. I think he was very intelligent.

PEF was not planning to continue to, and had taken a voluntary demotion in early 2005; it was easier to replace her when she left. That would have led to a reduction in household income.

The thing is, if he decides to start spending, an expensive European trip, a vacation home, the house needs a new roof, he needs a new car, he will not have the money for it.

 

[SeekingJana]

PEF was not planning to continue to, and had taken a voluntary demotion in early 2005; it was easier to replace her when she left. That would have led to a reduction in household income.

The thing is, if he decides to start spending, an expensive European trip, a vacation home, the house needs a new roof, he needs a new car, he will not have the money for it.

The thing is- she had a job and she could have kept on working if he didn't have the retirement funds to support them in the style in which they wanted to live. ( which I doubt was extravagant at all).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The thing is- she had a job and she could have kept on working if he didn't have the retirement funds to support them in the style in which they wanted to live. ( which I doubt was extravagant at all).

Part of the stated plan was that they would travel.

For that matter, RFG could work part time, but he wasn't planning to do so.

 

[BigCat]

Oh, we look very prosperous ( relatively speaking, not like Hollywood celebs or anything) but happiness comes from within not from material things-- if basic needs are met.

Personally, I think that when we look at Ray's expenses, which were practically nil, then he could have retired and lived a nice, quiet life in a nice, quiet little town like Bellefonte without any struggles or hassles beyond the normal ones in life. Plus, Patty's 19 years or so younger. She is still working and could have done so after Ray retired. Things change, people change, needs change.

But RFG's life would be anything but nice and quiet, today, if he had settled down with PF in Bellefonte. He would be subject to continuous inquires from the media; he would be a possible witness in any Sandusky related trial; and he would face social isolation in Centre County for his failure to prosecute Sandusky. His life wouldn't be as hellish as Mike McQueary's, but it wouldn't be pleasant. IMO, he would have moved out of the area, if not out of the state entirely, at this point.

IDK what exactly changed in Ray's life but I really don't think he was inflexible so as not to be able to make contingency plans if there was a money issue. Inflexibility is one of the hallmark signs of an un-intelligent person. I think he was very intelligent.

I agree with everything you wrote about how money doesn't buy happiness, and RFG could be happy on a limited budget. Indeed, I think it's likely that he's living somewhere today very modestly.

 

[Trackergd]

Just wanted to throw this out for discussion. Is it possible that "some" of the money was invested in valuable antiques that could be liquidated if needed? I know three individuals who invested in historic and rare military antiques from about their 20's and are now reaping a tidy sum selling them off a little at a time.

I'm unsure about the angle of sending money overseas with the changes in laws regarding those type of offshore accounts. Unless it was with extended family in Slovenia (and that would be a heck of a lot of trust in family), it would be difficult to access. How much money would it take to get a modest home and life a quiet life with a little travel in Slovenia or surrounding countries keeping in mind that he would have to purchase all new personal effects, home items a car and to cover health care and medicine? To me that would be in the neighborhood of a half million.

Right now I am at 50% walkaway - 30% foul play - 20% suicide, however convincing arguments might sway me.

 

[Trackergd]

I can attest to this!!! I was happier being single and making $50,000 a year than I am now in a much higher income bracket but with a spouse. We absolutely do spend more than I did, and I think we are less happy ( I know I am).

I don't disagree with your assessment at all. I keep my "toy" spending to a minimum and have been shedding hobbies at a rapid rate and selling off stuff in the basement I have not used in years. I noticed long ago that when I purchased something I wanted quite badly, there was always a let down later, even though it was a material thing I could tinker with whenever I wanted. Once I had it, it was not so much the thrill. (insert sigh here).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just wanted to throw this out for discussion. Is it possible that "some" of the money was invested in valuable antiques that could be liquidated if needed? I know three individuals who invested in historic and rare military antiques from about their 20's and are now reaping a tidy sum selling them off a little at a time.

I'm unsure about the angle of sending money overseas with the changes in laws regarding those type of offshore accounts. Unless it was with extended family in Slovenia (and that would be a heck of a lot of trust in family), it would be difficult to access. How much money would it take to get a modest home and life a quiet life with a little travel in Slovenia or surrounding countries keeping in mind that he would have to purchase all new personal effects, home items a car and to cover health care and medicine? To me that would be in the neighborhood of a half million.

Right now I am at 50% walkaway - 30% foul play - 20% suicide, however convincing arguments might sway me.

Based on what is out there now:

Voluntary departure: 60% (+8)

Foul play: 29% (-15)

Suicide: 10% (+7)

Something else: 1% (Includes accidental hit and run)

If we were absolutely sure of a few things, i.e. no estate planning, the location and the time of the call, that have not been publicly released, but are probable:

Voluntary Departure: 63%

Foul Play: 31%

Suicide: 5%

Something else: 1%

If there was estate planning:

Voluntary departure: 60%

Foul Play: 21%

Suicide: 18%

Something else: 1%

 

[BigCat]

Just wanted to throw this out for discussion. Is it possible that "some" of the money was invested in valuable antiques that could be liquidated if needed? I know three individuals who invested in historic and rare military antiques from about their 20's and are now reaping a tidy sum selling them off a little at a time.

I'm trying to think how I could collect antiques and then sell them off without my wife's knowledge. It would be a challenge. Significantly, however, PF was not RFG's wife. Did the ability to conceal his financial transactions more effectively play a part in his decision not to marry?

I'm unsure about the angle of sending money overseas with the changes in laws regarding those type of offshore accounts. Unless it was with extended family in Slovenia (and that would be a heck of a lot of trust in family), it would be difficult to access. How much money would it take to get a modest home and life a quiet life with a little travel in Slovenia or surrounding countries keeping in mind that he would have to purchase all new personal effects, home items a car and to cover health care and medicine? To me that would be in the neighborhood of a half million.

Right now I am at 50% walkaway - 30% foul play - 20% suicide, however convincing arguments might sway me.

I once had refugees from the now defunct Yugoslavia as neighbors. There were very warm, hardworking people, but, man, were they ever nosey. I'm talking about catching the wife literally staring into my windows several times. Of course, I understood we had different cultural notions of privacy. Americans are on the extreme end of the continuum when it comes to the value placed on privacy (to the detriment of fostering a sense of community, some would argue).

Slovena is not Yugoslavia; however, there are close geographically and culturally. I'm guessing it would be difficult for an American, with little experience in the country, to blend in there.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

On the selling of antiques, it would be rather difficult. My understanding is he collected toys from the 1950's and cameras. It might me difficult to sell, except by e-Bay.

I've postulated gold as a possibility, originally as an investment. It would have to be reported in the estate if it was. For example, $30,100 in gold in 2001 would weigh about 6.9 pounds (100 Troy Oz.). In 2005, it would have been worth about $44,000. You figure that for just over 20 pounds of weight, he could have had $130,000, in 2005.

I think we can come up of all sorts of possibilities of how RFG could move money, but not evidence that he did move money.

 

[SeekingJana]

Part of the stated plan was that they would travel.

For that matter, RFG could work part time, but he wasn't planning to do so.

You have argued AGAINST Ray Gricar having made ANY plans for post- retirement which included any travel with Patty. Do you need me to find your posts? You were quite adamant about it and went on and on that he was NOT planning ( PLANNING being the operative word) to travel after retirement.

 

[SeekingJana]

But RFG's life would be anything but nice and quiet, today, if he had settled down with PF in Bellefonte. He would be subject to continuous inquires from the media; he would be a possible witness in any Sandusky related trial; and he would face social isolation in Centre County for his failure to prosecute Sandusky. His life wouldn't be as hellish as Mike McQueary's, but it wouldn't be pleasant. IMO, he would have moved out of the area, if not out of the state entirely, at this point.
I agree with everything you wrote about how money doesn't buy happiness, and RFG could be happy on a limited budget. Indeed, I think it's likely that he's living somewhere today very modestly.

There's a basic flaw in your assessment as it relates to Ray's hypothetical" present day life in Bellefonte". He could NOT know in 2005 that these things were going to happen with Sandusky. Even IF he had reason to believe that Sandusky's pedophilia would be prosecuted, there was always a chance that Sandusky could have pleaded guilty and avoided a trial.

Also, let me ask you- if you were facing a loaded gun, which had you rather have? A bullet through your heart or other vital organs or a life with a bit of unpleasantness from the busy bodies, then the same type of small- town gossiping that he was probably already used to in some measure? He was practically self- isolated from social circles in Bellefonte and elsewhere anyway. He was a loner, not a social gadfly.

 

[SeekingJana]

I'm trying to think how I could collect antiques and then sell them off without my wife's knowledge. It would be a challenge. Significantly, however, PF was not RFG's wife. Did the ability to conceal his financial transactions more effectively play a part in his decision not to marry?
I once had refugees from the now defunct Yugoslavia as neighbors. There were very warm, hardworking people, but, man, were they ever nosey. I'm talking about catching the wife literally staring into my windows several times. Of course, I understood we had different cultural notions of privacy. Americans are on the extreme end of the continuum when it comes to the value placed on privacy (to the detriment of fostering a sense of community, some would argue).
Slovena is not Yugoslavia; however, there are close geographically and culturally. I'm guessing it would be difficult for an American, with little experience in the country, to blend in there.

Regarding valuable "antiques"- one very portable rarity comes to mind ( partially thanks to a famous plot, re the movie "Charade")-- rare stamps.
We don't know that he ever bought a rare stamp or anything similar, but before you discard the idea, watch "Charade". I thought it was extremely plausible and extremely ingenious. They were hidden "in plain sight" for a very long time.
I am not going to post extremely deadly serious all the time on this case. We never have and humor has served us well.