PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[J. J. in Phila]

You have argued AGAINST Ray Gricar having made ANY plans for post- retirement which included any travel with Patty. Do you need me to find your posts? You were quite adamant about it and went on and on that he was NOT planning ( PLANNING being the operative word) to travel after retirement.

That was he told friends he wanted to do in retirement. PEF was going to leave her job.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Regarding valuable "antiques"- one very portable rarity comes to mind ( partially thanks to a famous plot, re the movie "Charade")-- rare stamps.
We don't know that he ever bought a rare stamp or anything similar, but before you discard the idea, watch "Charade". I thought it was extremely plausible and extremely ingenious. They were hidden "in plain sight" for a very long time.
I am not going to post extremely deadly serious all the time on this case. We never have and humor has served us well.

Stamps can be difficult to sell; so can diamonds. Also the price is not so solidly set as gold/silver. Silver would be too heavy.

 

[BigCat]

There's a basic flaw in your assessment as it relates to Ray's hypothetical" present day life in Bellefonte". He could NOT know in 2005 that these things were going to happen with Sandusky.

Like you said in a previous post, RFG is an intelligent man. I can't rule out that he foresaw how things would shake out and that he orchestrated his exit. It seems to me less fantastic than any foul play theory that I can come up with.

Even IF he had reason to believe that Sandusky's pedophilia would be prosecuted, there was always a chance that Sandusky could have pleaded guilty and avoided a trial.

In that case, RFG would have avoided testifying; nevertheless, RFG still would have to deal with the second guessing about this decision not to prosecute in 98.

Also, let me ask you- if you were facing a loaded gun, which had you rather have? A bullet through your heart or other vital organs or a life with a bit of unpleasantness from the busy bodies, then the same type of small- town gossiping that he was probably already used to in some measure? He was practically self- isolated from social circles in Bellefonte and elsewhere anyway. He was a loner, not a social gadfly.

Right. He's a loner, which is one of the reasons that I believe walking away was a viable option for him. He was not a part of Centre County social circles. He was an outsider. He could never join in the "We are...Penn State" chant. Ray Gricar was not Penn State.

Thus I believe it's a possibility RFG walked away because he realized he would be made a scapegoat one day. Perhaps he even feared for his safety. Again, those are just possibilities.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit:

Like you said in a previous post, RFG is an intelligent man. I can't rule out that he foresaw how things would shake out and that he orchestrated his exit. It seems to me less fantastic than any foul play theory that I can come up with.



In that case, RFG would have avoided testifying; nevertheless, RFG still would have to deal with the second guessing about this decision not to prosecute in 98.

I doubt if RFG could have avoided testifying, either before the grand jury or at trial. Amendola actually made the argument that RFG didn't prosecute because the case weak.

How much foresight there would be depends on a few things, including what happened in 1998 and did RFG think Sandusky was back at it?

 

[SeekingJana]

Stamps can be difficult to sell; so can diamonds. Also the price is not so solidly set as gold/silver. Silver would be too heavy.

There is a HUGE stamp market in Europe. I'm thinking Antwerp, but maybe just because of diamonds, which are more " my thing". LOL
But, there are extremely venerable stamp buying and selling houses, much like antique houses, in Europe.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There really is no stamp exchange. Most go through private auctions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philatelic_investment

There are dealers in major cities, but prices can be as little as 2/3 of the value, according to that.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Okay. Here is what we know.

RFG had his cell phone with him.

The phone had voice mail.

The phone was found, turned off, in the Mini. There were no pings from Lewisburg, indicating that the phone was not turned on in Lewisburg. LE would have started searching there.

I spoke with someone who knew him in the 1980's. At the time, she didn't have an answering machine. RFG sent her a letter saying **Get an answering machine.**

We have witness reports putting RFG in Lewisburg after 5:00 PM. A full day has gone by, he talked to the office before noon, but it was just to say he couldn't be in. The laptop did not have wireless and he left the cable to connect at the Internet at home.

Why doesn't he check his voice mail? Even if he's taking the day off, and even though he wasn't on 24 hour call, something important could have happened. It would not have had to be job related; it could be a call from his daughter, or PEF. He did not check it.

 

[MissJ]

Oh, we look very prosperous ( relatively speaking, not like Hollywood celebs or anything) but happiness comes from within not from material things-- if basic needs are met.

Personally, I think that when we look at Ray's expenses, which were practically nil, then he could have retired and lived a nice, quiet life in a nice, quiet little town like Bellefonte without any struggles or hassles beyond the normal ones in life. Plus, Patty's 19 years or so younger. She is still working and could have done so after Ray retired. Things change, people change, needs change.
IDK what exactly changed in Ray's life but I really don't think he was inflexible so as not to be able to make contingency plans if there was a money issue. Inflexibility is one of the hallmark signs of an un-intelligent person. I think he was very intelligent.

I'm sure you do as did I..and I do now. I just meant that you can't judge how much RFG spent by his appearance. I always wore a Rolex tucked under my sleeve. I'm sure he had enough to live comfortably or else he wouldn't have set his retirement.

 

[MissJ]

JMO but I cannot believe that an intelligent man like RFG would give up the life he chose and the retirement he worked for to go live a possible 30 years in possible poverty elsewhere. Unless it is proven that he had other valuable assets elsewhere why would he? He didn't have to stay with PEF if he didn't want to. Most people who walk away do so for a reason. I can't see what reason he had to do so.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm sure you do as did I..and I do now. I just meant that you can't judge how much RFG spent by his appearance. I always wore a Rolex tucked under my sleeve. I'm sure he had enough to live comfortably or else he wouldn't have set his retirement.

To some extent, he had to dress for court. There are photos of him in sweatshirts and jeans and others in a tee-shirt for Turner Classic Movies. I dress very well when I am on a job, to maintain a professional appearance. I don't dress that way normally.

As to living in poverty, that would assume that there were not funds that RFG could use. Based on his estate, we cannot make that assumption.

 

[MissJ]

To some extent, he had to dress for court. There are photos of him in sweatshirts and jeans and others in a tee-shirt for Turner Classic Movies. I dress very well when I am on a job, to maintain a professional appearance. I don't dress that way normally.

As to living in poverty, that would assume that there were not funds that RFG could use. Based on his estate, we cannot make that assumption.

I'm not assuming, I just don't think he had a million put back. To live 30 years without outside income he'd need that much IMO, to live comfortably. He'd have had to start all over with nothing and provide himself with health care. That takes a lot of money.

 

[SeekingJana]

There really is no stamp exchange. Most go through private auctions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philatelic_investment

There are dealers in major cities, but prices can be as little as 2/3 of the value, according to that.

There is most certainly a strong market for rare and antique stamps. You may not know about it, but I do. I have a friend who invests heavily in both gold bulion and rare antique stamps. One does not take the place of the other, of course, but I have heard him discuss the strong selling and buying in parts of Europe.
The gold is his reserve because he is old enough to remember a poor childhood during years when our paper currency was low value on the international markets. He's a self- made millionaire and is an extremely shrewd investor in oil, land, etc.
He says that he could live 20 years off any one of his investments- including stamps alone.
However, since he is now in his 70's and has an inoperable heart condition, I doubt the material wealth will help him very much from this point forward. Sad.

 

[MissJ]

There is most certainly a strong market for rare and antique stamps. You may not know about it, but I do. I have a friend who invests heavily in both gold bulion and rare antique stamps. One does not take the place of the other, of course, but I have heard him discuss the strong selling and buying in parts of Europe.
The gold is his reserve because he is old enough to remember a poor childhood during years when our paper currency was low value on the international markets. He's a self- made millionaire and is an extremely shrewd investor in oil, land, etc.
He says that he could live 20 years off any one of his investments- including stamps alone.
However, since he is now in his 70's and has an inoperable heart condition, I doubt the material wealth will help him very much from this point forward. Sad.

Do you suppose RFG had such a collection? I made similar investments years ago and it has paid off.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There is most certainly a strong market for rare and antique stamps. You may not know about it, but I do. I have a friend who invests heavily in both gold bulion and rare antique stamps. One does not take the place of the other, of course, but I have heard him discuss the strong selling and buying in parts of Europe.
The gold is his reserve because he is old enough to remember a poor childhood during years when our paper currency was low value on the international markets. He's a self- made millionaire and is an extremely shrewd investor in oil, land, etc.
He says that he could live 20 years off any one of his investments- including stamps alone.
However, since he is now in his 70's and has an inoperable heart condition, I doubt the material wealth will help him very much from this point forward. Sad.

Actually, I collected stamps in my youth.

There are problems with disposing of it quickly.

Even the small cities I've been in, State College, Johnstown, have a place that will deal in gold. Not all of them will have anyone who deals in stamps. A stamp could have a "book value" of $5,000, but someone might be able to sell it for no more than $3.500, to a dealer.

Further, one of the centers, where you might find a buyer, is Bellefonte. It is the headquarters of the American Philatelic Society. It is a great place to buy or sell stamps, or to make connections with a buyer or seller, but nearly everyone there would recognize RFG at sight.

Most of the high end stamps (the "Inverted Jenny") are sold at auction, and the price can vary by a few $100 K.

In RFG's case, I have never heard anyone say he had any interest in stamps.

 

[MissJ]

Actually, I collected stamps in my youth.

There are problems with disposing of it quickly.

Even the small cities I've been in, State College, Johnstown, have a place that will deal in gold. Not all of them will have anyone who deals in stamps. A stamp could have a "book value" of $5,000, but someone might be able to sell it for no more than $3.500, to a dealer.

Further, one of the centers, where you might find a buyer, is Bellefonte. It is the headquarters of the American Philatelic Society. It is a great place to buy or sell stamps, or to make connections with a buyer or seller, but nearly everyone there would recognize RFG at sight.

Most of the high end stamps (the "Inverted Jenny") are sold at auction, and the price can vary by a few $100 K.

In RFG's case, I have never heard anyone say he had any interest in stamps.

Could he have invested in gold? A lot of people did.

 

[SeekingJana]

Actually, I collected stamps in my youth.

There are problems with disposing of it quickly.

Even the small cities I've been in, State College, Johnstown, have a place that will deal in gold. Not all of them will have anyone who deals in stamps. A stamp could have a "book value" of $5,000, but someone might be able to sell it for no more than $3.500, to a dealer.

Further, one of the centers, where you might find a buyer, is Bellefonte. It is the headquarters of the American Philatelic Society. It is a great place to buy or sell stamps, or to make connections with a buyer or seller, but nearly everyone there would recognize RFG at sight.

Most of the high end stamps (the "Inverted Jenny") are sold at auction, and the price can vary by a few $100 K.

In RFG's case, I have never heard anyone say he had any interest in stamps.

J.J., did you have rare very very old stamps from EUROPE ( you know, from one of the countries that used to OWN us?) Stamps that were 200+ years old?
If not, then you are whistling Dixie.
Believe it or not, you are not an expert on everything. None of us are.

However, it is possible that we MAY have stumbled onto something which I couldn't know on my own. The fact that some, not all, but some stamps are considered Holy Grail items ( I am not speaking literally) and that Bellefonte was a center for some types of stamp transactions seems to possibly raise the potential that Gricar could have converted cash into a much more portable item to get out of the country with, if he did leave.
MOST people, if searching him or even pickpockets, would not know the value he was carrying on his person.
And if he traveled to Europe, then he was going from a weaker market to a much stronger one.

As far as him not buying or selling the stamps himself, well, all he had to do was have a broker. Millionaires do not actually go and buy or sell their stamps either. They have professional stamp appraisers/ brokers do it all for them, then the stamp or stamps are delivered via courier or other secure means.
If you went to Netflix and watched " Charade" the idea of storing a huge amount of money in 3-4 stamps is totally ingenious and a low risk for theft.
It's an idea which has not been considered previously in the question of " If he left, how did he transport cash or did he already have an off- shore bank account?"

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Could he have invested in gold? A lot of people did.

Yes, that was one possibility, discussed on the first page of the last thread.

Gold, however, would an estate asset and would be taxable. It did not show up in the estate, which was less than $25 K.

If he did, it is with him.

 

[SeekingJana]

I certainly think a broad statement like " Interested in antiques" and " Goes antiquing" could cover for a lucrative transaction of a few stamps. If the value is high enough, we are talking 3 to 5 stamps.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit

J.J., did you have rare very very old stamps from EUROPE ( you know, from one of the countries that used to OWN us?) Stamps that were 200+ years old?
If not, then you are whistling Dixie.
Believe it or not, you are not an expert on everything. None of us are.

I collected American stamps, but postage stamps were not invented until the 1840's.

The problem with a stamp is selling it. You can't go to a bank and say, **Here is my $500,000 stamp, give me my change." You can't cash it in at the local "Stamp-mart." You usually have to put it up for auction.

It is not particularly liquid. It would be same problem with a Da Vinci or a Van Gogh. Yes, if they were small enough, you could get them out of the country. You have to sell them for their cash value to come into play. Gold (and to a lesser extent platinum) is light enough to carry and can be sold much more easily.

In regard to antiques, the only things I have ever heard of him collecting were toys from his childhood period and cameras.

 

[SeekingJana]

Snipped a bit



I collected American stamps, but postage stamps were not invented until the 1840's.

The problem with a stamp is selling it. You can't go to a bank and say, **Here is my $500,000 stamp, give me my change." You can't cash it in at the local "Stamp-mart." You usually have to put it up for auction.

It is not particularly liquid. It would be same problem with a Da Vinci or a Van Gogh. Yes, if they were small enough, you could get them out of the country. You have to sell them for their cash value to come into play. Gold (and to a lesser extent platinum) is light enough to carry and can be sold much more easily.

In regard to antiques, the only things I have ever heard of him collecting were toys from his childhood period and cameras.

Yes, well, if you were buying rare antiques, would you want the people around you to know they were rare? Valuable?
And I don't mean 20th century toys..

Please give a little bit in discussing this case with me. Lately, I say "white" so you say " black" and vice versa.
It used to be such a lovely and productive discussion. I miss those many years.