PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #14

[MissJ]

Again, Hamilton is a large city in its own right. West Chester is not. Never heard anyone refer to either as being near Dayton. I lived there..you'd get laughed out of the state. Its like saying Dayton is outside of Toledo.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Again, Hamilton is a large city in its own right. West Chester is not. Never heard anyone refer to either as being near Dayton. I lived there..you'd get laughed out of the state. Its like saying Dayton is outside of Toledo.

I don't recall any of the Gricar family ever saying that they lived near Cincinnati. There were references to Dayton.

 

[MissJ]

I don't recall any of the Gricar family ever saying that they lived near Cincinnati. There were references to Dayton.

Well that is exactly what I said. All media reports refer to Roy as having died in Montgomery county, near Dayton. I quoted my sources of information. Hamilton is in Butler county approximately 45 miles from Dayton and about 30 miles from Cincinnati.
Cities that are outside Dayton and in Montgomery county are Kettering and parts of Beavercreek and Xenia. Wright Pat is nowhere near Hamilton and that is where Roy worked. It is even farther than Dayton. No one would commute that far as I-75 is very heavily traveled and traffic is horrendous. I drove from Beavercreek to Kettering on I-75 and I-475 and it was at least a 45 minute drive.

No one who ever lived in Ohio would refer to West Chester or Hamilton as near Dayton or in Montgomery County.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well that is exactly what I said. All media reports refer to Roy as having died in Montgomery county, near Dayton. I quoted my sources of information. Hamilton is in Butler county approximately 45 miles from Dayton and about 30 miles from Cincinnati.
Cities that are outside Dayton and in Montgomery county are Kettering and parts of Beavercreek and Xenia. Wright Pat is nowhere near Hamilton and that is where Roy worked. It is even farther than Dayton. No one would commute that far as I-75 is very heavily traveled and traffic is horrendous. I drove from Beavercreek to Kettering on I-75 and I-475 and it was at least a 45 minute drive.

No one who ever lived in Ohio would refer to West Chester or Hamilton as near Dayton or in Montgomery County.

I do not remember anyone from the Gricar family ever suggesting that they lived near Cincinnati. I have heard them refer to Dayton, repeatedly.

 

[bucshunter]

My apologies for my absence, but my phone lines were down until today.

As for the flowers, they dumped by the railroad bridge. I am not sure if RFG's favorite color was yellow, or even if he had one. Tony Gricar once mentioned that it looked a place where people tossed flowers.

Good to "see" you back J. J. and I appreciate your diligence on this case.

 

[wijg]

Well that is exactly what I said. All media reports refer to Roy as having died in Montgomery county, near Dayton. I quoted my sources of information. Hamilton is in Butler county approximately 45 miles from Dayton and about 30 miles from Cincinnati.
Cities that are outside Dayton and in Montgomery county are Kettering and parts of Beavercreek and Xenia. Wright Pat is nowhere near Hamilton and that is where Roy worked. It is even farther than Dayton. No one would commute that far as I-75 is very heavily traveled and traffic is horrendous. I drove from Beavercreek to Kettering on I-75 and I-475 and it was at least a 45 minute drive.

No one who ever lived in Ohio would refer to West Chester or Hamilton as near Dayton or in Montgomery County.

As someone who lives in northwest Hamilton County in Ohio (btw, about 3 miles from the Great Miami... I know every inch of that river from Troy, OH to North Bend, OH), West Chester and Mason are definitively suburbs (or more accurately, exurbs) of Cincinnati. No one ever mistakes them for Dayton. If anything, people in West Chester just say "Cincinnati" when asked where they live.

Also, as I mentioned, I essentially grew up along the Great Miami. Played ball in the parks that line it. Fished in it. Camped along it. Ran along it. I know that river like the back of my hand, and I cannot think of a bridge high enough that would be ideal for committing suicide. And suicide by drowning - as we all can fathom - would be extremely difficult. Drowning one's self is not easy. Especially on what was presumably a nice day (if he was going to buy mulch, I'm assuming he was planning on doign yard work). The Great Miami has several parks and walking and biking trails along it between Dayton and Fairfield, OH. There would be people kayaking, fishing, playing ball in the park, biking and running on the trails. It would be hard for a suicide attempt by drowning to go unnoticed.

http://www.whio.com//news/news/local/victim-recovered-great-miami-river/nPcqh/

This woman was able to pull off drowning, but her body only made it about a mile from where she left her car: http://www.journal-news.com/news/news/woman-found-floating-in-the-river-identified/nTMYz/

another suicide by drowning, and once again, the car is found about a mile from the body (even though the body was discovered two days later). Though not reported, my brother (a Miami student at the time) had said he took a bunch of pills to ensure he would pass out easier in the water http://miamistudent.net/?p=111420

anyway, if you google "great miami suicide", there aren't many results. It's really rare. Most people are rescued before they die.

Also, driving to Miamisburg from West Chester to commit suicide makes no sense. The river lies 7-10 miles west of you (depending on where you live in West Chester), and yet you drive 30 miles to Miamisburg? Better yet, the I-71 bridge over the Little Miami - the Jeremiah Morrow Bridge - 10 miles north east of West Chester, and at 239 feet above the Little Miami, it is a much more ideal place to attempt suicide. Anyone who lives in the are where I live knows the Morrow Bridge would be the ideal suicide spot (http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/crime-law/i-71-bridge-attracts-suicide-jumpers-1/nNBg9/). Not the Great Miami. And certainly not near Miamisburg.

I never thought about it all until now since you guys brought it up, but Roy's death is extremely fishy.

 

[MissJ]

I do not remember anyone from the Gricar family ever suggesting that they lived near Cincinnati. I have heard them refer to Dayton, repeatedly.

Then why do you keep saying Hamilton is where Roy died?

 

[MissJ]

As someone who lives in northwest Hamilton County in Ohio (btw, about 3 miles from the Great Miami... I know every inch of that river from Troy, OH to North Bend, OH), West Chester and Mason are definitively suburbs (or more accurately, exurbs) of Cincinnati. No one ever mistakes them for Dayton. If anything, people in West Chester just say "Cincinnati" when asked where they live.

Also, as I mentioned, I essentially grew up along the Great Miami. Played ball in the parks that line it. Fished in it. Camped along it. Ran along it. I know that river like the back of my hand, and I cannot think of a bridge high enough that would be ideal for committing suicide. And suicide by drowning - as we all can fathom - would be extremely difficult. Drowning one's self is not easy. Especially on what was presumably a nice day (if he was going to buy mulch, I'm assuming he was planning on doign yard work). The Great Miami has several parks and walking and biking trails along it between Dayton and Fairfield, OH. There would be people kayaking, fishing, playing ball in the park, biking and running on the trails. It would be hard for a suicide attempt by drowning to go unnoticed.

http://www.whio.com//news/news/local/victim-recovered-great-miami-river/nPcqh/

This woman was able to pull off drowning, but her body only made it about a mile from where she left her car: http://www.journal-news.com/news/news/woman-found-floating-in-the-river-identified/nTMYz/

another suicide by drowning, and once again, the car is found about a mile from the body (even though the body was discovered two days later). Though not reported, my brother (a Miami student at the time) had said he took a bunch of pills to ensure he would pass out easier in the water http://miamistudent.net/?p=111420

anyway, if you google "great miami suicide", there aren't many results. It's really rare. Most people are rescued before they die.

Also, driving to Miamisburg from West Chester to commit suicide makes no sense. The river lies 7-10 miles west of you (depending on where you live in West Chester), and yet you drive 30 miles to Miamisburg? Better yet, the I-71 bridge over the Little Miami - the Jeremiah Morrow Bridge - 10 miles north east of West Chester, and at 239 feet above the Little Miami, it is a much more ideal place to attempt suicide. Anyone who lives in the are where I live knows the Morrow Bridge would be the ideal suicide spot (http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/crime-law/i-71-bridge-attracts-suicide-jumpers-1/nNBg9/). Not the Great Miami. And certainly not near Miamisburg.

I never thought about it all until now since you guys brought it up, but Roy's death is extremely fishy.

Thanks for the info. I agree with your analysis.
IIRC West Chester is about 20 miles from Cincinnati.
no reason to go to the Dayton area to commit suicide. Probably that was what made RFG suspicious of his death.

 

[wijg]

Well that is exactly what I said. All media reports refer to Roy as having died in Montgomery county, near Dayton. I quoted my sources of information. Hamilton is in Butler county approximately 45 miles from Dayton and about 30 miles from Cincinnati.
Cities that are outside Dayton and in Montgomery county are Kettering and parts of Beavercreek and Xenia. Wright Pat is nowhere near Hamilton and that is where Roy worked. It is even farther than Dayton. No one would commute that far as I-75 is very heavily traveled and traffic is horrendous. I drove from Beavercreek to Kettering on I-75 and I-475 and it was at least a 45 minute drive.


No one who ever lived in Ohio would refer to West Chester or Hamilton as near Dayton or in Montgomery County.

That's not exactly true in 1996. West Chester, OH/Liberty Township/Monroe had not boomed yet (though it was beginning to). Th epopulation was less than half of what it is now, and congestion on northbound I-75 between Tylersville Rd and I-675 was not bad at all. A commute to Wright Pat from around the Tylersville Rd area would probably have only taken 35-40 minutes on any given day. It generally takes longer to get to Downtown Cincy from West Chester for the AM commute than it would get to Wright Pat. And I do know contractors who have worked long term projects at Wright Pat and lived in the West Chester and Liberty Township areas. It's not unheard of, and it would have been easier to do in '96.

So... my point is... Living in West Chester and commuting to Wright-Pat isn't all that odd to me as someone who grew up in southwest Ohio. However, living in West Chester and driving to Miamisburg to drown yourself in the Great Miami is extremely odd. It makes no sense. The location, the means of suicide, the time of day, lack of a suicide note. None of it makes sense.

 

[wijg]

Also, as for the location of Roy's suicide, the best I could find is that it was in a park "across from where his son worked". I guess his son would be Tony, and I believe that location is Miamisburg (which is essentially Dayton).

Going to a park, on a nice spring day, close to where your son works? Not quite the ideal place to try to get away with offing yourself. You're willing to drive 30 miles to find a good location to kill yourself, and you pick a park, on a nice day, right across from where your son works... in spite of the fact that the tallest bridge in OH, the 239 ft-high Morrow Bridge - is 10 miles from your house, and much more secluded, and a sure bet to do the job.

Doesn't make sense.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Then why do you keep saying Hamilton is where Roy died?

It is where the car was found and where he went into the water.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Also, as for the location of Roy's suicide, the best I could find is that it was in a park "across from where his son worked". I guess his son would be Tony, and I believe that location is Miamisburg (which is essentially Dayton).

Going to a park, on a nice spring day, close to where your son works? Not quite the ideal place to try to get away with offing yourself. You're willing to drive 30 miles to find a good location to kill yourself, and you pick a park, on a nice day, right across from where your son works... in spite of the fact that the tallest bridge in OH, the 239 ft-high Morrow Bridge - is 10 miles from your house, and much more secluded, and a sure bet to do the job.

Doesn't make sense.

He might have been driving around to think about it.

While the news articles say that he went out by mulch, according to Tony, Roy was suppose to pick up the youngest son, A, from sports practice (soccer, I think). The first time they knew something was wrong was when A called home to ask why Roy hadn't picked him (A) up yet.

 

[wijg]

He might have been driving around to think about it.

While the news articles say that he went out by mulch, according to Tony, Roy was suppose to pick up the youngest son, A, from sports practice (soccer, I think). The first time they knew something was wrong was when A called home to ask why Roy hadn't picked him (A) up yet.

Hmmm.... there weren't many spring soccer leagues in the Greater Cincy area in the 90s, unless you were an elite 16 or 17 year old, or a 4-6 year old kid playing in a spring lolipop league. But I do know that the earliest such leagues started in West Chester and Mason. Very likely it could have been in early such league. But the reason I'm pondering this is because soccer was much more prominent as you got closer to Dayton (especially in the Miamisburg, West Carrollton, and Kettering areas), which could mean if the kid was in some sort of spring league, it could have been up near those areas as opposed to closer to home. I'm just thinking out loud and trying to offer my expertise on this area, as I've lived here my whole life and grew up playing 4 sports in the 90s (football, basketball, baseball, and track... and the reason I did not play soccer is because I could not find a spring league to play in for a kid my age, or else I would have played soccer instead of running track).

 

[wijg]

Sorry if this had already been posted, but this was written by a former classmate of Roy's with very little motivation to lie: http://irpvoicesonline.com/voices/will-we-ever-know/

Also, another US military 737 crashed in Croatia a month before Roy died. All on board were killed, including a cabinet member. The cause seemed ambiguous (a mix of mechanical and human error). I wonder if this was maybe the last straw for Roy, and he was going to blow the whistle, but someone found out and took care of him. Once again, just thinking out loud.

 

[Sutton]

Sorry if this had already been posted, but this was written by a former classmate of Roy's with very little motivation to lie: http://irpvoicesonline.com/voices/will-we-ever-know/

Also, another US military 737 crashed in Croatia a month before Roy died. All on board were killed, including a cabinet member. The cause seemed ambiguous (a mix of mechanical and human error). I wonder if this was maybe the last straw for Roy, and he was going to blow the whistle, but someone found out and took care of him. Once again, just thinking out loud.

Yep, thread 13:
VOICES - Roy Gricar

Glad you posted again bc this leads to an entirely different motivation than is normally considered.

I tend to believe the story, but SuperSmith noted that the author referred to Roy's wife as Carol, but her name is actually Diane (middle initial is H). So maybe it is a false story...or maybe the author did that on purpose...?

 

[SuperSmith]

So are the rest of us that are regular posters and contributers in some way inferior?

 

[SuperSmith]

Couple that with the fact that Roy feared the water according to his son Tony

 

[MissJ]

How could Roy's car have been found in Hamilton if he drove to Miamisburg or Dayton to off himself? They are no where near each other. No where I have ever seen does anyone say he died in Hamilton or Butler county where you say his car was found. List your source please. I listed mine. If he drove to the Dayton (Montgomery county)area to kill himself how did his car get 40 miles away in Hamilton (Butler) county? Again Hamilton is not Dayton or Montgomery county area despite your opinion. No one who ever lived in Ohio would say such a thing.

 

[MissJ]

That's not exactly true in 1996. West Chester, OH/Liberty Township/Monroe had not boomed yet (though it was beginning to). Th epopulation was less than half of what it is now, and congestion on northbound I-75 between Tylersville Rd and I-675 was not bad at all. A commute to Wright Pat from around the Tylersville Rd area would probably have only taken 35-40 minutes on any given day. It generally takes longer to get to Downtown Cincy from West Chester for the AM commute than it would get to Wright Pat. And I do know contractors who have worked long term projects at Wright Pat and lived in the West Chester and Liberty Township areas. It's not unheard of, and it would have been easier to do in '96.

So... my point is... Living in West Chester and commuting to Wright-Pat isn't all that odd to me as someone who grew up in southwest Ohio. However, living in West Chester and driving to Miamisburg to drown yourself in the Great Miami is extremely odd. It makes no sense. The location, the means of suicide, the time of day, lack of a suicide note. None of it makes sense.

OK I stand corrected since I was going by my experience driving between Franklin (Warren County) and Dayton on I-75 which took me a good 40-45 minutes even though Franklin is right off I-75. I-475 which connects south Dayton to Northern areas was no better. Traffic
was horrendous on I-75 when I drove it. That was between mid 80's to late 90's. Just my experience.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Couple that with the fact that Roy feared the water according to his son Tony

I have not heard that. I do know that RFG did swim, though he wasn'y considered a strong swimmer.