PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #14

[MissJ]

People in Ohio frequently refer to a ballpark as a park. We had one in Franklin Ohio when I lived there. Ballfields and was lions club park.

 

[wijg]

Ok, so go a little bit further north, near Main St of Miamisburg, and you'll have the Rt. 725 bridge, as well as a railroad bridge about 400 meters north of the highway bridge, spanning Bear Creek. And that Highway Bridge is in an area that is more "built up" than Lewistown.

Just because TG found it "eerily similar" doesn't mean they were "exactly" similar or that has to do anything with the case. You know how many old towns in PA were founded along rivers and have similar architecture, town layouts, parks, railroad bridges, etc? Probably dozens. And Ohio is much the same way.

TG was probably also trying to exaggerate for effect in order to try to connect the two.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ok, so go a little bit further north, near Main St of Miamisburg, and you'll have the Rt. 725 bridge, as well as a railroad bridge about 400 meters north of the highway bridge, spanning Bear Creek. And that Highway Bridge is in an area that is more "built up" than Lewistown.

Just because TG found it "eerily similar" doesn't mean they were "exactly" similar or that has to do anything with the case. You know how many old towns in PA were founded along rivers and have similar architecture, town layouts, parks, railroad bridges, etc? Probably dozens. And Ohio is much the same way.

TG was probably also trying to exaggerate for effect in order to try to connect the two.

TG said the orientation was the same. A bridge over another creek, not running roughly parallel, and not easily visible from the highway bridge.

The only places that I found that even resembled, broadly, what TG said about were near Hamilton.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped a bit.

TG was probably also trying to exaggerate for effect in order to try to connect the two.

I wouldn't use the word "exaggerate," but is possible that it really isn't the same and that Roy's suicide site has nothing to do with what happened to RFG.

One theory floating around was that a killer "made it look like suicide" and chose Lewisburg because it resembled the site of Roy's suicide. If it doesn't, that aspect of the theory can be dismissed.

 

[wijg]

Wasn't Tony Gricar like 9 years old when his dad died?

A somewhat old town. A river. A park. A highway bridge. A railroad bridge (which he would have passed on the way up, or perhaps seen just off tot he north over Bear Creek). Houses.

Those are very simple "things" which probably registered in his 9 year old brain. Nothing complex like town layout, or which way the came or left the town. It's very likely he remembers "things" about the town where his dad died, but not the actual layout. When he got to Lewisburg, he saw similar "things" (town. river. park. highway bridge. railroad bridge), and it registered with the "things" previously perceived by his 9 year old brain.

edit: I think I got my Gricar family member's mixed up. That being said, do we know how old Tony was at the time of Roy's death?

 

[wijg]

Disregard last post: Tony was around 23 at the time of Roy's death. I got him confused with another Gricar family member who was graduating HS that year (a graduation Ray had written in his planner).

Actually, this bolsters my Miamisburg argument. The DDN reported his car was found parked at a park across the street from where Tony Gricar worked. Whitepages shows that Miamisburg is one of the places Tony Gricar has lived. Seems likely he moved there after college to take a job.

 

[wijg]

Ok... I nailed it down. And I'm ready to enter this into evidence as fact.

The location of Roy's suicide was near the Tait Station Reservoir.

- Railroad bridge? Check
- Highway bridge? Check.
- Certainly more "built up", industry-wise.
- DDN said Roy's car was found in a park across from where TG worked.
a. TG worked for NCR, per his Google+.
1. Their Dayton office (which has since closed) was on Patterson Blvd. at Carillon, between Carillon Historical Park and Old River Park.
- There are some houses just off Carillon
- There may have been more 20 years ago. In fact, I'd bet there were.

I'd be willing to bet this is the place. It has the major features which Tony described, and it fits the facts as reported by the Dayton Daily News.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Disregard last post: Tony was around 23 at the time of Roy's death. I got him confused with another Gricar family member who was graduating HS that year (a graduation Ray had written in his planner).

Actually, this bolsters my Miamisburg argument. The DDN reported his car was found parked at a park across the street from where Tony Gricar worked. Whitepages shows that Miamisburg is one of the places Tony Gricar has lived. Seems likely he moved there after college to take a job.

If so, it doesn't even vaguely match the bridge configuration in Lewisburg. No railroad bridge running across the river.

It could be this, which is normal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia We all look for patterns.

 

[MissJ]

Ok... I nailed it down. And I'm ready to enter this into evidence as fact.

The location of Roy's suicide was near the Tait Station Reservoir.

- Railroad bridge? Check
- Highway bridge? Check.
- Certainly more "built up", industry-wise.
- DDN said Roy's car was found in a park across from where TG worked.
a. TG worked for NCR, per his Google+.
1. Their Dayton office (which has since closed) was on Patterson Blvd. at Carillon, between Carillon Historical Park and Old River Park.
- There are some houses just off Carillon
- There may have been more 20 years ago. In fact, I'd bet there were.

I'd be willing to bet this is the place. It has the major features which Tony described, and it fits the facts as reported by the Dayton Daily News.

Sounds about right to me. DDN is usually very accurate in their reporting.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ok... I nailed it down. And I'm ready to enter this into evidence as fact.

The location of Roy's suicide was near the Tait Station Reservoir.

- Railroad bridge? Check
- Highway bridge? Check.
- Certainly more "built up", industry-wise.
- DDN said Roy's car was found in a park across from where TG worked.
a. TG worked for NCR, per his Google+.
1. Their Dayton office (which has since closed) was on Patterson Blvd. at Carillon, between Carillon Historical Park and Old River Park.
- There are some houses just off Carillon
- There may have been more 20 years ago. In fact, I'd bet there were.

I'd be willing to bet this is the place. It has the major features which Tony described, and it fits the facts as reported by the Dayton Daily News.

The park is on the far side of a brewing company. This isn't a close match.

I think everyone can see the problems since we have gonee through several different locations.

 

[wijg]

The park is on the far side of a brewing company. This isn't a close match.

I think everyone can see the problems since we have gonee through several different locations.

The brewery is not some large building. It's an historical site originally built in the 1800s and serves primarily as a museum. Carillon Historical Park is exactly the kind of place full of historic buildings similar to those you'd find in Lewisburg. Google some pictures. To me, this area is probably more eerily similar to Lewisburg than any other, and it is consistent with all the other facts that we know.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The brewery is not some large building. It's an historical site originally built in the 1800s and serves primarily as a museum. Carillon Historical Park is exactly the kind of place full of historic buildings similar to those you'd find in Lewisburg. Google some pictures. To me, this area is probably more eerily similar to Lewisburg than any other, and it is consistent with all the other facts that we know.

I did. The problem is that park itself isn't really visible from the bridge, as the park in Lewisburg is.

To me Hamilton would be. The bridge in Hamilton, at the time, was similar to the Lewisburg bridge (and several other mid-state bridges).

I think Lewisburg is more significant because it is out of the JASC Media Market.

 

[MissJ]

I did. The problem is that park itself isn't really visible from the bridge, as the park in Lewisburg is.

To me Hamilton would be. The bridge in Hamilton, at the time, was similar to the Lewisburg bridge (and several other mid-state bridges).

I think Lewisburg is more significant because it is out of the JASC Media Market.

Except Hamilton is not Dayton and nowhere near it. Multiple MSM list Roy's place of death as Dayton. No matter how one looks at it, it just isn't. So that just doesn't fit either. Its not really reasonable to try to force Hamilton into the Dayton Metro area it is not and no one who knows anything about Ohio would say that it is. Fact.

 

[wijg]

I did. The problem is that park itself isn't really visible from the bridge, as the park in Lewisburg is.

To me Hamilton would be. The bridge in Hamilton, at the time, was similar to the Lewisburg bridge (and several other mid-state bridges).

I think Lewisburg is more significant because it is out of the JASC Media Market.

You're really nit-picking here. And you don't know that the bridges aren't visible from the edge of the park along Carillon Blvd.

Why do you want us fixated on Hamilton? There is absolutely no evidence that points to Hamilton. Just what you assert TG said and claimed to have felt, and how Hamilton is similar to Lewisburg. I have actually provided information which supports my theory. That his death was in Montgomery County. That his car was found "in a park across from where his son worked". That his son worked at NCR. That Carillon Historical Park has buildings from a similar era as you'd find in Lewisburg, including a brewery turned into a museum (not unlike the tavern-turned-museum known as the Packwood House).

If you can find any evidence that Roy Gricar died in Butler County and that Tony Gricar worked in Hamilton, OH, then I'll concede this argument to you. But you see, I won't have to. Because Roy Gricar did not die in Butler County, and Tony Gricar did not work in Hamilton, OH. Those are facts.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

It is a bit unlikely that it was a threat from someone in the car. He could could have either jumped out when he slowed for a turn or ran the car into something on the passenger side. Further, what is the person going to do, shoot the driver?

I have to HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

 

[J. J. in Phila]

You're really nit-picking here. And you don't know that the bridges aren't visible from the edge of the park along Carillon Blvd.

Why do you want us fixated on Hamilton? There is absolutely no evidence that points to Hamilton. Just what you assert TG said and claimed to have felt, and how Hamilton is similar to Lewisburg. I have actually provided information which supports my theory. That his death was in Montgomery County. That his car was found "in a park across from where his son worked". That his son worked at NCR. That Carillon Historical Park has buildings from a similar era as you'd find in Lewisburg, including a brewery turned into a museum (not unlike the tavern-turned-museum known as the Packwood House).

If you can find any evidence that Roy Gricar died in Butler County and that Tony Gricar worked in Hamilton, OH, then I'll concede this argument to you. But you see, I won't have to. Because Roy Gricar did not die in Butler County, and Tony Gricar did not work in Hamilton, OH. Those are facts.

I do know, because of Google Streetview (which wasn't around in 2005, IIRC). I, and you, could look and see the view from the bridge. If that is the site of Roy's suicide, it is a poor match with Lewisburg. That is the problem, these other locations don't match. Unless you know where it is, you can't get some photos and match it up with Lewisburg. If we can't do it, with arguabye better technology in 2015, a killer couldn't in 2005.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have to HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

What passenger would shoot the driver?

 

[wijg]

I do know, because of Google Streetview (which wasn't around in 2005, IIRC). I, and you, could look and see the view from the bridge. If that is the site of Roy's suicide, it is a poor match with Lewisburg. That is the problem, these other locations don't match. Unless you know where it is, you can't get some photos and match it up with Lewisburg. If we can't do it, with arguabye better technology in 2015, a killer couldn't in 2005.

I'm not asserting that a theoretical killer picked Lewisburg because of its similarities to wherever Roy was allegedly found. In fact, I think that whole thing is a red herring. I think some things TG said were taken out of context, and spun by certain people to keep us fixated on Lewisburg.

 

[wijg]

What passenger would shoot the driver?

Who said he had to shoot? Who says he didn't have a guy up in Seattle tailing Ray's daughter, and he let him know "you take one wrong turn, and she's dead. And don't even think about trying anything funny, because if I don't check in with him every hour, she's dead".

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm not asserting that a theoretical killer picked Lewisburg because of its similarities to wherever Roy was allegedly found. In fact, I think that whole thing is a red herring. I think some things TG said were taken out of context, and spun by certain people to keep us fixated on Lewisburg.

Well, when I heard it, it was used as an argument to show RFG was never really in Lewisburg. And it isn't taking TG out of context. He was to the point that he was showing Renner aerial maps of both areas for a comparison.