PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #14

[howardstern]

I never said it did. I was merely making a joke that I figured would be humorous to Pennsylvanians.

But it appears I struck a chord....

You blatantly insulted the guy, essentially calling him a complete liar....and you expected not to "strike a chord"? Oh my.

 

[wijg]

You blatantly insulted the guy, essentially calling him a complete liar....and you expected not to "strike a chord"? Oh my.

I didn't call him a liar. Quite the opposite. I think JJ actually believes what he says. He's just drawing conclusions based on gigantic leaps in logic and then treating those conclusions as fact.

But let's stop the bickering, because that's not the road I intended to go down. Let's get back to the discussion of the case. I am genuinely interested in everyone's theory.

So... HowardStern... you're relatively new. Sorry if you've posted it before, but what is your complete theory of the Gricar disappearance? How did it go down, and what makes you believe that? I'm still at the point where I don't rule out anything, so I'm always anxious to get new theories and opinions (so long as they're qualified as such, and not asserted as facts).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped, respectfully.

I didn't call him a liar. Quite the opposite. I think JJ actually believes what he says. He's just drawing conclusions based on gigantic leaps in logic and then treating those conclusions as fact.

It isn't a conclusion. It seems rather obvious that people did know about it; some of them do talk to me.

I'm simply showing you some of the corroborating information that was published.

As I've said previously, there are things I am not at liberty to talk about. Sometimes I hint at it. Sometimes, even in e-mail.

I've also said that one day, my mea culpa will come.

 

[MissJ]

More than that. I do have it confirmed from a source. As you can see with the message board poster, it had been getting out there for a while.

Who confirmed it? Link?

 

[MissJ]

Snipped, respectfully.



It isn't a conclusion. It seems rather obvious that people did know about it; some of them do talk to me.

I'm simply showing you some of the corroborating information that was published.

As I've said previously, there are things I am not at liberty to talk about. Sometimes I hint at it. Sometimes, even in e-mail.

I've also said that one day, my mea culpa will come.

I believe the rules are that if you can't reveal your source it can't be argued as fact. So the source can't be confirmed?

 

[MissJ]

Fact is no one knows what happened to RFG. We know he is gone leaving behind his planned retirement with girlfriend PEF. As far as we know he had no money hidden away for retirement or for walking away for a new life. Someone is looking into his finances for missing money. So, currently, as far as we know he would have been walking away to live in a life of poverty unless he wanted to do manual labor somewhere. If he wanted to remain an attorney he would have had to reveal his true identity where ever he went. As far as I'm concerned I can't see RFG making himself dependent on someone else to support him even if he left for another woman.

Then there is the issue of why he would need to walk away to begin with. He owed PEF nothing. He wasn't running away from a wife and house full of children he needed to support. As far as we know he wasn't in any legal trouble. So why would he need to be secretive about leaving his old life behind? Why not just take his retirement and go? Just because he would have to give his address to the retirement program? Why would he not want to do that? I doubt he was scared of PEF. Who would he be running scared from? I might buy into the walkaway theory were it not for the retirement being left.

So I'm back where I started. Suicide or homicide.

I believe someone wanted us to believe it was suicide. That is why the computer was found where it was. But there is no body.

Maybe an over simplification but the conclusion I come to is homicide or he left with the assist of legal channels.

No I don't believe he left so his daughter could have his retirement. No one is that generous. His daughter was perfectly able to support herself. He had assisted her going to college.
JMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I believe the rules are that if you can't reveal your source it can't be argued as fact. So the source can't be confirmed?

It did appear in an MSM blog. I do point out as well that it was known by others as well.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Resectfully snipped.

Fact is no one knows what happened to RFG. We know he is gone leaving behind his planned retirement with girlfriend PEF. As far as we know he had no money hidden away for retirement or for walking away for a new life. Someone is looking into his finances for missing money. So, currently, as far as we know he would have been walking away to live in a life of poverty unless he wanted to do manual labor somewhere. If he wanted to remain an attorney he would have had to reveal his true identity where ever he went. As far as I'm concerned I can't see RFG making himself dependent on someone else to support him even if he left for another woman.

We do know that his estate was far below what would be expected for his salary and living expenses, so the supposition that he would be living in poverty is not valid. It is an unknown, but with something unusual.

Then there is the issue of why he would need to walk away to begin with. He owed PEF nothing. He wasn't running away from a wife and house full of children he needed to support. As far as we know he wasn't in any legal trouble. So why would he need to be secretive about leaving his old life behind? Why not just take his retirement and go? Just because he would have to give his address to the retirement program? Why would he not want to do that? I doubt he was scared of PEF. Who would he be running scared from? I might buy into the walkaway theory were it not for the retirement being left.

I think that this is a bit of a red herring. There are potentially reasons, including the one included. The only thing we can say about it that we don't know which reason.

No I don't believe he left so his daughter could have his retirement. No one is that generous. His daughter was perfectly able to support herself. He had assisted her going to college.
JMO.

Well, again, we don't know the motive, though it made a great Christmas movie.

 

[howardstern]

Hasn't been posted in a while so here's the map I made a few months back, feel free to edit as needed;

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z69ZxbaBvzmM.kMN08HHDqNB0&usp=sharing

 

[Ozoner]

As I've said previously, there are things I am not at liberty to talk about. Sometimes I hint at it. Sometimes, even in e-mail.

With all due respect, J.J., it's a free country—why would there be anything you're not at liberty to talk about? Are you under court order?

 

[MissJ]

Resectfully snipped.



We do know that his estate was far below what would be expected for his salary and living expenses, so the supposition that he would be living in poverty is not valid. It is an unknown, but with something unusual.



I think that this is a bit of a red herring. There are potentially reasons, including the one included. The only thing we can say about it that we don't know which reason.



Well, again, we don't know the motive, though it made a great Christmas movie.

There is no evidence he had or took any money with him. None.

 

[howardstern]

So... HowardStern... you're relatively new. Sorry if you've posted it before, but what is your complete theory of the Gricar disappearance? How did it go down, and what makes you believe that? I'm still at the point where I don't rule out anything, so I'm always anxious to get new theories and opinions (so long as they're qualified as such, and not asserted as facts).

I honestly don't have a theory of any kind; I don't think we have near enough info to make any type of conclusive observation. If it was narrowed down to "foul play" or "walk away" (and obviously suicide), maybe I could throw together a hypothesis, but as of now I'm not in the game of making guesses.

The theory's you guys have put together are certainly compelling, and in the end that's how these threads/cases continue forward, but they mostly rely on anecdotal evidence or worse. There are a ton of things that could have potentially happened, but not enough evidence for me to subscribe to one theory over another. With that being said, I would be the last one to rule anything out. Hell, he could have been abducted by aliens for all we know at this point (...sarcasm...).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

With all due respect, J.J., it's a free country—why would there be anything you're not at liberty to talk about? Are you under court order?

In some case, I simply made the promise. In others, I am worried about the effect on pending cases.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There is no evidence he had or took any money with him. None.

The is no evidence where the money is, except we know it wasn't in his estate.

 

[wijg]

In some case, I simply made the promise. In others, I am worried about the effect on pending cases.

"Cases".. plural... that's interesting.

I'm not sure why revealing the source of information - information which may not even be relevant - regarding the disappearance of a man 10 years ago who has been legally declared dead would have a detrimental effect on pending cases. Unless the cases are somehow tied into the Gricar disappearance, or unless the source(s) or your information could be disciplined for leaking information (which could later be used against them as a means of damaging their credibility in a possibly unrelated case). If it is the latter, I have to wonder what they gain from leaking info to you? Are you positive they aren't feeding you misinformation meant to protect them? I mean, if they came to you with info, they presumably knew you would post it, and that presumably means they wanted the info out there. So why not go to Sara Ganim, who has a much larger readership?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

"Cases".. plural... that's interesting.

I'm not sure why revealing the source of information - information which may not even be relevant - regarding the disappearance of a man 10 years ago who has been legally declared dead would have a detrimental effect on pending cases. Unless the cases are somehow tied into the Gricar disappearance, or unless the source(s) or your information could be disciplined for leaking information (which could later be used against them as a means of damaging their credibility in a possibly unrelated case). If it is the latter, I have to wonder what they gain from leaking info to you? Are you positive they aren't feeding you misinformation meant to protect them? I mean, if they came to you with info, they presumably knew you would post it, and that presumably means they wanted the info out there. So why not go to Sara Ganim, who has a much larger readership?

Yes, because some things I have confirmed; I generally won't go with something without cooberation. Who says Ganim does not know? And the plural is deliberate.

 

[wijg]

Yes, because some things I have confirmed; I generally won't go with something without cooberation. Who says Ganim does not know? And the plural is deliberate.

Very intriguing. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[SuperSmith]

There is no witness to Gricar messing with the laptop in Lewisburg. Clearly an embellishment, among many others, that has been made to fit a personal theory or one that is being forced upon the public.

 

[MissJ]

The is no evidence where the money is, except we know it wasn't in his estate.

We have no evidence there was ever money to be hidden. He could have spent it. Despite what some people believe most people live up to their income.

 

[SuperSmith]

I believe the laptop/harddrive was a plant.

1. Not proven beyond a doubt that Gricar was in Lewisburg.

2. The river was initially searched knowing the laptop was missing. They were not just looking for a body.

3. Both pieces were found in obvious locations that had been previously searched.

4. A second search was done and no hard drive found.

5. The names of the lucky finders of the laptop and hard drive have never been named.

6. The pieces were found after the case grew cold. These finds swayed everyone to walkaway or suicide.