PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #14

[J. J. in Phila]

https://happyvalleycitizen.wordpres...n-the-brink-of-scandal-and-in-deep-🤬🤬🤬-again/

This really is not relevant to RFG's disappearance.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

This really is not relevant to RFG's disappearance.

JJ I thought everyone is searching for the truth and to solve this case you and everyone else will have to be ture to your hart

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

JJ I thought everyone is searching for the truth and to solve this case you and everyone else will have to be ture to your hart

oops I spelled heart wrong I must be a back woods dumb as a rock from CC

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ I thought everyone is searching for the truth and to solve this case you and everyone else will have to be ture to your hart

You do, but some guy complaining about something that doesn't involve the disappearace or RFG is not one of them. It is like talking about Madeira's current carrier.

 

[SuperSmith]

This really is not relevant to RFG's disappearance.

Ok, so tell me JJ how exactly is Kathleen Kane's case relevant to the RG disappearance? I guess you are allowed though right?

You posted a link to her case not long ago.

 

[SuperSmith]

You do, but some guy complaining about something that doesn't involve the disappearace or RFG is not one of them. It is like talking about Madeira's current carrier.

You say this because you like her, have defended her, and continue to support her. If it was a DA you didn't like you'd have no problem with me posting the link.

I posted the link due to the fact that the woman Jungle saw with RG could have been SPM.

On top of that she has a very checkered past and now has a very checkered future.

 

[SuperSmith]

You do, but some guy complaining about something that doesn't involve the disappearace or RFG is not one of them. It is like talking about Madeira's current carrier.

Just started. Reading into this story - can someone give me a quick run down of his computer activity and what we know so far about what was on his?

Also I'd really appreciate it if you more experienced members could tell me any facts that they think someone should know about the story please? TIA and lots of love


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Welcome to the discussion. The best advice I can give you is to read up on the case and to trust your own judgment. It comes down to your own interpretation. No one here is anymore of an expert than another. The summary that JJ provided in response to you is "his" own interpretation and to be fair there is no narrator of this case. Good luck and thank you for taking the time to check out the case.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ok, so tell me JJ how exactly is Kathleen Kane's case relevant to the RG disappearance? I guess you are allowed though right?

You posted a link to her case not long ago.

I do note that it is related, because now the state has the case; it would be her office that would be coordinating things. SPM and BPD are out of it, unless we hear something on the Grand Jury.

There are a lot of interesting things going on in Centre County, but they are not related to what we're talking about on this thread. The only thing that is possible is the grand jury.

Now, if this were a Centre County DA thread, I'd agree.

 

[wijg]

There are a lot of interesting things going on in Centre County, but they are not related to what we're talking about on this thread.

As long as there are people in public office in Centre County that knew Ray Gricar personally, anything and everything that happens to them or involves them is relevant to this thread. While I may not agree with everything SuperSmith has to say, the fact that SPM was one of the last people to exchange emails with RFG, and was the defense attorney in an active case he was prosecuting at the time, makes anything and everything about her relevant to this discussion. In my opinion, anyone who had contact with Ray Gricar in the weeks preceding his disappearance deserve scrutiny.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

As long as there are people in public office in Centre County that knew Ray Gricar personally, anything and everything that happens to them or involves them is relevant to this thread. While I may not agree with everything SuperSmith has to say, the fact that SPM was one of the last people to exchange emails with RFG, and was the defense attorney in an active case he was prosecuting at the time, makes anything and everything about her relevant to this discussion. In my opinion, anyone who had contact with Ray Gricar in the weeks preceding his disappearance deserve scrutiny.

I would agree about scrutiny of activities at the time, but not unrelated events that occurred 9-10 years later. Sloane's drug arrest, for example, could have indicated an impairment in 2005. Some falsely, as it turns our, made claim about SPM doing something, not related to RFG does not.

I would also question the suggestion that SPM was with him at the time. The "Mystery Woman" reported to be with RFG in Lewisburg was described having dark hair, and being in her 40's. SPM is blond and was her mid 30's in 2005.

 

[SeekingJana]

The Boston Globe posted a summary today online about " what being missing means in America". https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazin...just-vanish/CkjirwQF7RGnw4VkAl6TWM/story.html
It's simple reading, nothing new or earth- shattering, but maybe another look at their terminology will help someone decide for themselves if Ray Gricar fits the definition of " missing".
Quoting:
"EVERY YEAR, more than a half million Americans are reported missing. The majority of these reports are quickly canceled — either the individual is found or was never really gone at all. Still, there are approximately 80,000 active missing person cases at any given time in this country. These cases usually fit into neat categories. About 40 percent of them are children, either runaways or taken by their noncustodial parents. The adults who get lost tend to be struggling with substance abuse or mental health issues, or be elderly and suffering from Alzheimer’s or other forms of dementia. Those who go missing voluntarily tend to be younger and escaping some kind of legal bind, like overdue child support or an arrest warrant. Murder victims are often either transient or male or both."

I think it's always helpful for us to be mindful of what the aggregate term of " missing" really means, while realizing that there are outlying unknown circumstances which really mean " dead but not found yet". The above part quoted from the Boston Globe is in reference to their breaking news story of the remains of 66 year old hiker, Geraldine Largay, being found off the Appalachian Trail in a US Navy training ops forested area.
If you use my link, you will also find that scent dogs failed miserably and repeatedly to find any trace of the missing woman, perhaps even before she died. However, so did trained SAR personnel and for 2.5 years, search and recovery teams and hikers looking for Mrs. Largay, who was an experienced hiker.

Ray Gricar is in a very small fractionated designation- missing adult over 10 years with no known absolute clues about where, when, how or why he went missing or where he or his remains are, if deceased. Also, there was no history of substance abuse, mental illness, organic brain disease or other life-limiting disease in his life. No known legal problems, and was definitely not a transient. ( looking at their definitions of those who end up dead due to bad choices/ bad personal situations, I guess you'd say).

Ray fit none of the categories the Boston Globe listed as risk factors except " adult" and " male" as they related to transient murders.
I think it is largely his exceptional character qualities and devotion to his career and largely, to his home, that cause most of us to wonder/ theorize/ think that he died before he could return home.

I thought he was likely alive until I thought more about the MANY unspoken and perhaps easily overlooked loyalties and allegiances that stable mature adults have. We have ties that keep us emotionally whole and happy, and functioning at an optimal state: to our home, to our town, to our loved ones, to our career, to our hobbies and our personal belongings most of the time, to our sense of personal history which is usually anchored to tangible treasured items like awards, certificates ( college diplomas, board certifications, and the like), our family photographs, mementos from our child or childrens' past, even old wedding photos when we aren't even married to that person any longer- we find old familiar faces of wedding guests in the photos.

I don't know if this applied to Ray when he disappeared, but there are a large segment of our culture in America who are bonded deeply not only to people, but to pets, even a bird or a tank of fish. Sometimes, our pets have been there for us through thick and thin, through the laughter and the tears, for many years. I do not know if Ray was that close to the one dog said to be mentioned or referenced in the last phone call he is said to have made, but to me, you have to care about the animal to consider its needs ahead of time. If the dog was " just Patty's dog", then I think that if he said anything about Honey, as Patty said he did, it shows that he cared about Patty, too.
As an aside anecdote which, to my current chagrin shows that I did not value the pets of a former relationship: My ex- husband used to ask me to do MANY things all throughout every for his two dogs while he jetted around the country. I was working full- time in a very demanding nursing job. I kept the two small dogs watered and fed, but he had to hire many carpet cleaners over those 5 or so years because I just wasn't invested in him, his life, or his dogs enough to do exactly what he wanted done for their care. ( And he was too " soft hearted" to board them at a lovely dog spa, the jerk).

I think Ray was logically assumed to be missing but alive for a while, but after 10.5 years, and as I have cause to examine my own loyalties, ties and relationships particularly closely for personal reasons now, I realize that MUCH of our emotional lives are usually tied to strong sentiments for people, places, animals, and whatever gives us each a great sense of " belonging". What I like to call " coming home" every evening.
I believe Ray " came home" until he was permanently prevented from doing so, and we are all the poorer in spirit for his absence in Centre County, Bellefonte, Pennsylvania, United States, North America, planet Earth.

Sometimes, reality is a long time coming, and a hard won and hollow victory. I am at that finish line now. Not giving up or giving in, but resigned to the fact that his corporeal remains may never be found. I hope people who read about the living Ray Gricar can find inspiration and purpose through his life's work and the love he had for his daughter and others in his life.

 

[SuperSmith]

Well thought conclusion. It's a sad one but most likely the correct one.

 

[SeekingJana]

Well thought conclusion. It's a sad one but most likely the correct one.

Thank you, SuperSmith. This case touches me so deeply, and the hurt is great knowing that Ray will never see his grandchild or drive fast in a little sports car again... or all the millions of things that give our lives purpose, laughter, sunshine.
I believe there is an afterlife, and my Christian religion says the time to mourn is when there is birth, and to rejoice when a child of God dies and enters Heaven. Somehow, this was easier to understand when I was young, not in my 50's, just 2 years younger now than Ray when he left. ( I still can't resume the use of " missing").

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If I was sure that RFG was not a victim of foul play, I would not be posting (well, with the same frequency, at any rate).

There is some circumstantial evidence he was not, but not enough.

 

[SeekingJana]

Bumping Ray's thread up for hopeful discussion. I hope all is well with those who regularly post on his case.
Please stay the course with me, all of you who care about this missing man.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm fine, but there just isn't anything new.

A lot iis going on with the PSU cases, and Kane, bit nothing related to RFG.

 

[1&2&3]

Is there any suspicion that Ray went into the Witness Protection Program?

Ten years later and the woman seen in his car has not been identified or come forward. This seems a bit odd. If she was a married lady, why was he driving in the downtown courthouse area with her. I would assume this would be an area with more people out and about to see them. And, probably everyone knew his Mini.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Is there any suspicion that Ray went into the Witness Protection Program?

Ten years later and the woman seen in his car has not been identified or come forward. This seems a bit odd. If she was a married lady, why was he driving in the downtown courthouse area with her. I would assume this would be an area with more people out and about to see them. And, probably everyone knew his Mini.

For the federal Witness Security Program, they permit the person to take all his money with him. There were no withdrawals of large sums. Also, they have a contact person; no contact person has emerged. It is highly doubtful that WSP would:

1. Have permitted him to be declared dead.

2. Have wanted all the publicity this generated.

3. Would not have prevented all the LE to be wasted.

His attorney also said it was not witness protection.

As for the Mystery Woman, RFG was spotted in a town with here about 50 miles away from where he lived and worked. It was also in a different media market, so it is unlikely he would have been recognized.

 

[SeekingJana]

Is there any suspicion that Ray went into the Witness Protection Program?

Ten years later and the woman seen in his car has not been identified or come forward. This seems a bit odd. If she was a married lady, why was he driving in the downtown courthouse area with her. I would assume this would be an area with more people out and about to see them. And, probably everyone knew his Mini.

I've thought about it, of course.
I always assumed that those in Witness Protection could never " return home" but I think things have changed a lot in the 21st century, esp. in the past decade. Pretty much, from what I understand, the program is loosely structured and those deemed to need protection are much more likely to have U,S. Marshall or State Police personnel guarding them in their environment than to try to establish a new ID in this age of electronic ID verification systems and so forth. One red flag and the cover would be blown, as they say. Also, it is so difficult for the government to keep providing financial benefits for the person in WSP.
I've read stories of people who had their verifiable ID destroyed, were removed from their homes and careers, and were left to fend for themselves. Still targets of the original threat, which were usually organized crime syndicates.
I think Witness Protection worked very well until the 90s. Several factors involving IT data in the private and government sector has changed the way we each live, whether we realize it or not. This change also applies to those who apply for federal protection.
Now, I think it's broken due to our country's secure ID protocols for every person and has hurt more people than it may have helped. It would be incredibly hard to create a dossier of false identity from birth to current age now.

The exception would be if a person had false documentation that was good enough to get him or her out of the US without any red flags and the person went to an area of the world with little to no formal ID protocols ( A third world country).
That's a lot to give up and do without to escape a potential hit man.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

For the federal Witness Security Program, they permit the person to take all his money with him. There were no withdrawals of large sums. Also, they have a contact person; no contact person has emerged. It is highly doubtful that WSP would:

1. Have permitted him to be declared dead.

2. Have wanted all the publicity this generated.

3. Would not have prevented all the LE to be wasted.

His attorney also said it was not witness protection.

As for the Mystery Woman, RFG was spotted in a town with here about 50 miles away from where he lived and worked. It was also in a different media market, so it is unlikely he would have been recognized.

As for me I will take the unlikely as to what happen to him