PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[SeekingJana]

A bit off the subject, but Stacey Parks Miller is facing a disciplinary hearing in November.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/article168075287.html

She lost the primary and will soon be out of office, right? I am not at all sure when the term expires.

I read the info at your link. None of the list of grievances against her has any tie to the Gricar case, right? If there's a link, I couldn't see it. Just that she's the Centre County DA now and has pretty much ruined her career, it seems.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

She lost the primary and will soon be out of office, right? I am not at all sure when the term expires.

I read the info at your link. None of the list of grievances against her has any tie to the Gricar case, right? If there's a link, I couldn't see it. Just that she's the Centre County DA now and has pretty much ruined her career, it seems.

Nothing Gricar related. Her term expires in January 2018. It is doubtful that this will over by that time.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

No remains were found in the pond.

I am going to impose on Tracker and ask how far away from a body would a cadaver dog be able to detect it.

For example, if the was a body within 15 feet of the dog, would the dog be likely to detect it? How about 10 yards, or 100 yards, 500 yards or 1000 yards?

I'm sure it won't be absolute, but generally.

 

[deoneta]

I watched an episode of Gone about Michele Whitaker and started reading about people who walk away from their lives. RFG was cited as a possible walk away in an article I read. I was aware of the disappearance, but never followed the case except to notice from time to time that it was still unsolved. Last night, I did a superficial catch up.

I think the Sandusky angle is interesting, but I wonder why with so many people having knowledge of the 1998 allegations would RFG be singled out for either retaliation or silencing, especially so many years later.

RFG was reported to be behaving "oddly", unfocused and disinterested in his work in the weeks prior to his disappearance. This could point to either walk away or suicide. I don't pretend to understand why someone would choose to walk away or take his life because of the pain it causes those left behind. I can only guess that both actions are seen as the only escapes from what has become unbearable.

Because of the internet searches, it seems most likely that RFG disposed of the laptop and hard drive himself. It's possible that there was nothing "embarrassing" to be be found on the laptop. With all his years in criminal justice, RFG probably would have had a better than average idea about how to create a new or borrowed identity. The laptop could have contained bank accounts under an assumed name or travel plans.

The interest in Mel Wiley points to walk away. He may have been planning to leave for some time.

I don't think the mystery woman would have to have been someone with whom he was currently involved romantically or someone with whom he planned to leave. He may have trusted her based on friendship or emotional attachment. She may have remained silent simply because she is keeping a promise. She could have driven him to a train station or airport from where he departed to who knows where.

In reading about people who have walked away and been found, most seemed to have had no intention of returning to their old lives and were only reunited with family after they were discovered. All my conjecture and MOO.

 

[Ozoner]

I watched an episode of Gone about Michele Whitaker and started reading about people who walk away from their lives. RFG was cited as a possible walk away in an article I read. I was aware of the disappearance, but never followed the case except to notice from time to time that it was still unsolved. Last night, I did a superficial catch up.

I think the Sandusky angle is interesting, but I wonder why with so many people having knowledge of the 1998 allegations would RFG be singled out for either retaliation or silencing, especially so many years later.

RFG was reported to be behaving "oddly", unfocused and disinterested in his work in the weeks prior to his disappearance. This could point to either walk away or suicide. I don't pretend to understand why someone would choose to walk away or take his life because of the pain it causes those left behind. I can only guess that both actions are seen as the only escapes from what has become unbearable.

Because of the internet searches, it seems most likely that RFG disposed of the laptop and hard drive himself. It's possible that there was nothing "embarrassing" to be be found on the laptop. With all his years in criminal justice, RFG probably would have had a better than average idea about how to create a new or borrowed identity. The laptop could have contained bank accounts under an assumed name or travel plans.

The interest in Mel Wiley points to walk away. He may have been planning to leave for some time.

I don't think the mystery woman would have to have been someone with whom he was currently involved romantically or someone with whom he planned to leave. He may have trusted her based on friendship or emotional attachment. She may have remained silent simply because she is keeping a promise. She could have driven him to a train station or airport from where he departed to who knows where.

In reading about people who have walked away and been found, most seemed to have had no intention of returning to their old lives and were only reunited with family after they were discovered. All my conjecture and MOO.

I agree with your analysis for the most part. I still think suicide is more likely than walk-away, though. And I can't completely rule out foul play. :/

 

[deoneta]

I agree with your analysis for the most part. I still think suicide is more likely than walk-away, though. And I can't completely rule out foul play. :/

I don't think suicide or foul play can be ruled out, either. If suicide, why would he involve the mystery woman, assuming she was actually known to him? A final farewell, maybe, but he discontinued communication with his current girlfriend and left no note. Maybe this was a chance encounter with a stranger and not related. Has anyone read a description of the woman or an account of their apparent interactions? I guess what I'm trying to say is did witnesses perceive them to be a couple? I don't know that someone leaning into the car through an open window would be enough to leave an obvious lingering odor of cigarette smoke. I would think it more likely that they sat and talked in his car with him no longer caring if his mini smelled smoky.

Could the mystery woman have been the murderer? While it's not unheard of for a woman to murder and dispose of a body, it is rare, mostly because of the weight of a grown man and the relative strength of most women. Maybe the contents of the laptop would have revealed that RFG was in the habit of meeting up with women he met online. There have been cases of women luring men who were then robbed and/or murdered by an accomplice.

I admit I am biased towards the walkaway theory simply because like everyone else, I hope this wasn't a suicide or a murder. While the Mel Wiley interest might seem minor, for me it is the tipping point. It's just one too many coincidences for me to ignore. All speculation and MOO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped:

I don't think suicide or foul play can be ruled out, either. If suicide, why would he involve the mystery woman, assuming she was actually known to him? A final farewell, maybe, but he discontinued communication with his current girlfriend and left no note. Maybe this was a chance encounter with a stranger and not related. Has anyone read a description of the woman or an account of their apparent interactions? I guess what I'm trying to say is did witnesses perceive them to be a couple? I don't know that someone leaning into the car through an open window would be enough to leave an obvious lingering odor of cigarette smoke. I would think it more likely that they sat and talked in his car with him no longer caring if his mini smelled smoky.

The witnesses thought they were together, but they were not holding hands.

There are a lot of things that point a voluntary act, the map to Lewisburg, the destruction of the hard drive, RFG acting oddly, he scant retirement savings. Suicide and walk away are voluntary; either would have been RFG's choice.

Could the mystery woman have been the murderer? While it's not unheard of for a woman to murder and dispose of a body, it is rare, mostly because of the weight of a grown man and the relative strength of most women. Maybe the contents of the laptop would have revealed that RFG was in the habit of meeting up with women he met online. There have been cases of women luring men who were then robbed and/or murdered by an accomplice.
.

Yes, and if the sightings on 4/16 are accurate, then the only real scenario we have is that he died while with a woman, after spending the night.

If RFG and there hypothetical murderess were at a vacation home in the area, the woman hidden the body on the property. On that point, I think it would be possible for this lover/murderer to hide the body, given enough time.

 

[SeekingJana]

If you drive 50 miles to a one horse town to commit suicide instead of dropping the electric razor in the bathroom sink, sticking a fork in the toaster, or revving up the Mini Cooper in an enclosed garage for a relatively painless carbon monoxide death- or like methods right there in the comfort of your own home, then why would you care what was left on a laptop computer which was said to be languishing at your house in a closet?
Would you care about cell phone, keys, wallet, etc. if you were, IDK, either seeking assistance from a friend or lover to commit suicide, or doing it solo?

If you aren't going to be around, how OCD does a person have to be to care what happens to inanimate objects but not the hearts and minds of loved ones after the suicide?

Next, I've never seen this discussed much before but we NEED to discuss this point:
Ray Gricar had been an attorney for many years. His speciality was, what..?
U.S. Criminal Law.

Does anyone know what happens to a person, either criminal, mentally disturbed, incredibly dumb or other, who helps a second person kill themselves?
They are found guilty of a crime, usually serious crime, and they go to?? Anyone??
Prison.

Would Ray Gricar, a sitting D.A., really do this to another person, assuming that there was help involved as is now being speculated. No body has been found, nor any evidence of suicide, so I can see where that kind of leaves out " He hanged himself in that big oak tree off Hwy. 51, or " He cut his wrists in the bathroom", or, in an unsolved " mystery" from my hometown- " They found him only 50 miles from home in a very small town, no one knows why he was there. It was a cheap motel with the electric razor plugged in, found in the bathroom sink full of water. He was dead- electrocuted". ( The doctor in the case I know about had 2 children close to my age and a loving wife. It wasn't suicide in most of our collective opinions).

IMO, the premise that Ray would enlist someone to help him commit suicide is not logical thinking on the part of at least 2 people- Ray and the " helper". IOW, 2 mentally ill people somehow hooked up and decided this was a good solution?? To what?? Life? Impending retirement? Boredom?
By using the trustworthy principle of Occam's Razor, Ray did not commit " the perfect suicide" with the help of a second person.

Ray was very intelligent and as far as we know, not subject to committing criminal acts or encouraging others to, either.
Could we please respect his sensibilities and abilities more than to suggest this " Friend or girlfriend helped him kill himself and for some reason, she was also given the incredibly implausible task of ensuring the body remained hidden forever?" ( knowing that few human remains can actually be hidden " forever").

I do not want to perpetuate the likely falsehood that this law- abiding good man enticed another to commit such a crime against him. It would be a form of murder. Any adult with the ability to use cognitive reasoning would have taken him to a mental facility for a 72 hour hold/ suicide watch with likely long term hospitalization to follow.
Thus, no death, and no crime committed by the second person.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I could see someone helping RFG leave voluntarily; that is not criminal.

Also, Roy Gricar did drive a distance to commit suicide. Joan Rivers late husband killed himself in another city from his home. I see that a barrier to the suicide theory.

 

[SeekingJana]

I could see someone helping RFG leave voluntarily; that is not criminal.

Also, Roy Gricar did drive a distance to commit suicide. Joan Rivers late husband killed himself in another city from his home. I see that a barrier to the suicide theory.

Totally agree with you that enlisting the help of another to leave ( disappear) is not criminal as he did not stage any crime. As you know, I believe, that, in the absence of a body or any evidence of foul play, this is what happened.

I also believe that there was someone WAITING for him in a major city in the US or in another country who had things " ready" for his upcoming life, financially and otherwise. Someone who knew him and loved him. ( Family in Slovenia, maybe, if not a lady).

My point is that with him not being a celeb. or a celeb's spouse like Edgar was, and having all the time in the world in the sleepy small hamlet of Bellefonte to plan and commit a suicide right there in his own home while Patty was at work, or exercising at the Y, or just asleep at night, he would not have had to leave home.

MAYBE the location of Roy's suicide was one of the things Ray struggled with to put the pieces together. It has been said by the family that Ray didn't know a lot about mental illness. ( I suspect, though, that he often was present in the courtroom when mentally ill people faced charges and were sentenced to first Ohio and then, PA locked mental units in prison or other secure mental facilities.)

However, Roy was Bi- Polar and not compliant with his meds. Ray was not Bi- Polar, and had no mental issues at all in his life history, including depression, according to the police reports regarding his health records.
Bi-Polar disordered people can cycle rapidly from a mania to a depression, or have features of both manic actions and depressive thinking. We are finding out that " some" psych. medications actually make this combo more common and that's disturbing in 2017.
Because the combo of manic actions with depressive thinking is usually indicative of a long- term psych. disorder, I don't equate Roy's suicide with Ray's disappearance in any way, except that they were brothers and both are now gone... which is tragic for the few family members they loved.

Regardless, it is very common for suicide to occur in the person's home. Usually, we can control our environment better at our own home than anywhere else. Also, there is a type of final comfort in dying at home according to my Psychology studies. I can provide statistics if you'd like. I've seen it with age groups from teens to octogenarians. ( Nurses see some awful tragedies).

Helper to leave taking of his own choice to a place he had picked out and planned for is not in the same category as a person who helped him commit suicide and then hid the body, or watched him die in another way and hid the body. That person would not have been his " helper friend" but a criminal, and Ray would have known the burden he was placing on another person and the criminal culpability. I don't believe he would have done this. I truly do not think he would have involved anyone else in a suicide..

I also do not think he committed suicide, mostly because I think he would have gotten help for depression or another psych. disturbance if one had been present in his life to the point that it was causing him to have thoughts of self- harm and death. Also, there is the fact that he went through it with his brother and knew it was a final act of a person who had other options- treatment facilities, medications, therapy.

I consider suicide to be the least likely option for his disappearance by almost 99.9%,.
I'm in my late 50's, and it ain't that old when ya get here, ya know?
I feel like I have a LOT to live for, and I believe he did, too. Much more to live for than we can actually know.
I really hope I'm right, but we don't know.

Always enjoy the case discussion. I see things new ways every time. This is the first time I've considered the criminal charges a " helper" would face in an assisted suicide or concealment of the body after a suicide ( with knowledge of the plans beforehand).
A recent headline case caused me to stop and think about the laws affecting the second person, which Ray would have known, of course.

 

[feralwriter]

Hello. I joined WS to post about Gricar. I'm from around that area in PA. but moved in 1981.

Anyway, what do people make of the supposed Hell's Angel stating Gricar was murdered? I ask, as it seems to me Gricar was a straight-up man. I watched him on that crime show episode, & he seemed a genuine guy. Of course, extreme stress can alter thinking, & maybe he did have a breakdown.

Last, I definitely don't think he'd walk away. His daughter was too important, had retirement soon, etc. If the dogs didn't track him anywhere (?) outside his MiniCooper, I wonder, however, if he really was seen in the town, esp. considering there were 2 same cars that day. If antique shop owners were used to his visits, I would think their sightings were the real deal.

"Fry" is the most concerning (to me) part of the case, besides his disappearance. Wasn't his retirement like 8 mo. down the road? Wouldn't he just let IT take care of all that? "Fry" to me seems on the down-low, trying to get rid of significant info. We don't know if someone came in the Gricar home, made the searches, took the car to town, then threw the computer/hard drive in the water.

Gricar was a smart man. Wouldn't he get rid of that hard drive in several pieces in several areas, & certainly not leave it intact- even if in a river- right where it would be searched for? That makes me think this was a set-up. I don't think he'd walk away from his life. Maybe he had a meeting with someone up there about sensitive info. re one of his old cases, whether Sandusky-related or not. But then, if you're going to meet someone in a somewhat contentious situation, you wouldn't draw them to a place you hold dear. Unless you were hoping for witnesses.

It was quite common back then to carry laptops, even if their efficacy was limited compared to 2017 standards. If hew as acting dramatically different in the weeks leading to this, maybe he knew something was looming, someone angry at him. Maybe someone who was about to get out of prison, & he was worried about retribution. As always in these cases, LE usually knows more details than anyone else. I think at some point, someone will come forward with even a small detail, which will unravel this whole thing like a yarn ball.

But back to the Hell's Angel. What's peoples' take on that? Thank you.

 

[SeekingJana]

^^ First of all, welcome to WS! :wagon::greetings::welcome6:
Also, welcome to this case's discussion. There are many fascinating missing persons' cases on WS. I hope you'll explore.. some have been solved recently!

Nope, there is no evidence that any Hell's Angels or any other group or a " gang" were involved. LE could not find any connection to a particular group or even a hint of violence committed against him, and we sleuthers have been over the possibility with a fine tooth comb.
If it happened, there is no evidence to be found at this time.

Also, no, the word " fry" a hard drive or a computer is not any sort of meaningful term.
My husband, who works with encrypted data in a sensitive career, often has to wipe one of our home computer hard drives and do a complete restore. ( We took all systems back down to Windows 7, from Windows 10, for example).
He used the word " Fry" when talking about simply wiping the HD to start all over with a clean install of another version of Windows.
He uses " computer speak" almost daily, whereas I rarely do.

Mr. Gricar was/ is a very smart man. It's possible that he was smart enough to get out of the country undetected. Several of his friends have laughingly said " This is exactly the kind of thing he'd love to pull", " He's off somewhere having the last laugh" and " He would do this sort of thing ( leaving without a word) because he didn't think much of the area LE officers".

I do agree with you that any past prosecuted person might hold a whacked desire for revenge after release from prison. However, Mr. Gricar had a team in court, as I understand it, and none of them are missing, or were hurt, or otherwise disturbed. Ditto for judges who presided in court during Mr. Gricar's terms as DA, as I understand it..

Here's the thing, though--The nuts who do this sort of revenge killing usually don't stop to carefully clean up evidence and hide bodies.
There is a case that's not very old in Texas where an assistant DA, the sheriff and his wife, and the DA were all gunned down by a crazed man who was mad because he lost his minor position as a constable. The people who were killed were involved in his removal from the position due to malfeasance on his part.
We can't predict those sorts of crazies, but again, the bodies were left where they fell. The gunman wanted the people he held responsible for his loss of career dead. Period.

Stop and think about the problems of proving he's dead where there's absolutely no evidence of any foul play or any scuffle, or even witnesses seeing an argument or worse.

If he's alive, then there's nothing to prove. He has the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness however he wants it ( within the laws of wherever he might be, of course).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Welcome to WS FW.

None of the judges or ADA's vanished, though a few have had problems.

RFG's scent was detected in the parking lot where the Mini was found;

RFG had talked to people, including a defense attorney, about erasing the data on the drive and had bought erasure software about a year before he disappeared. I wish I could shed more light on who the defense was (it wasn't SPM).

For me, wanting to get rid of the data on the drive could be something he'd do related to his retirement. It could include something, e.g. old family photograph, that he wanted to look at before killing himself. It could have had all his travel plans one it. That pretty much covers everything.

I actually think that the computer may not be directly related to his disappearance, as in the first statement. Assume that this was foul play and that RFG was planning to return home. He could say to the county:

**I was in Lewisburg in the park; I had my laptop with me. I tripped and the laptop went flying; it ended up in the river. There was nothing important on the drive. I'll be happy to reimburse the county.**

As for the Hell's Angles, there are too many problems with the story to be believed. I think there was a good discussion of it on one of the past threads, from the fall of 2013. It should be Thread #11.

 

[feralwriter]

:beamup: After 24 hours (minus sleep) reading up & watching vids on this, pretty sure he was victim of an alien abduction.

Thank you for the welcome wagon & flowers, SeekingJana. Much appreciated. :happydance: How do I know when there's a new post here?? Is it like Facebook, where you get a little red notification? I had to keep this open & refresh to see if anyone posted. Thanks.

I'm leaning toward voluntary disappearance. Someone is on Twitter about Gricar, but hasn't posted about him since 2014. Might be his daughter. Whoever it is is whip-smart. What are the variables here? If it *is* his daughter, did she tire of tweeting about him all a sudden in 2014? Did she learn something? Hear from him?

The dog(s) picked up a scent right around the car, thanks for that info. However, did the dog not pick a trail leading into the shops across the parking lot, not a scent from the car to the river? If Gricar was seen IN the shop areas with the dark-haired mystery woman, wouldn't that imply he walked there from his car? Or it rained, thus lessening the scent?

OR, someone pulled up to his right, to the right of his car, & Gricar stepped out of the driver's side then directly into the car that pulled up next to him.

Whatever the case, Gricar apparently went to a town he knew he would be seen & recognized in by locals. He was seen fiddling with something while sitting in his car (I can only assume the hard drive, trying to take it out), both of which ended up in the river, which had higher than normal water flowing that day.

His nephew, from the video & things I read, leans toward suicide. I can see a scenario where Gricar's body gets trapped under something heavy in the water down-river.

Re homicide: could have been a hired hit, as opposed to a nutcase, who would make the murder disorganized. Jimmy Hoffa was disappeared quite cleanly, & Gricar's associates didn't automatically need disappeared/murdered just because someone hired someone to do Gricar in.

It sounds like Gricar & his daughter were on opposite coasts for many years by 2005. Maybe things weren't that great with the woman he was living with. 59 is still pretty young, esp. considering he was seemingly healthy, good-looking, thin, etc. Maybe he planned his own disappearance over time, & somehow had funds or access to them where he was headed. I mean, the guy seemed to have spent his whole life working for the greater good; he put bad folks away, lived by the rules, paid his taxes, & saw the worst sides of human nature. Maybe something triggered his waking up one day & thinking he could just go live the opposite of how he had. But wouldn't it make more sense to leave AFTER he retired, so his daughter could get -- I don't know how retirement works. If he wasn't married, then who got his retirement, & if anyone got it, wouldn't they have gotten MORE had he walked away after retiring?

Anyway, that's all I've got. Besides the Sandusky angle. There ARE numerous pedophiles in America, there ARE many, many pedophile rings undiscovered, there IS much evil out there. Theoretically, he COULD have been a threat to someone involved in that in a high place with endless resources to take Gricar out.

Just so many scenarios. This reminds me a bit of another case I've followed since it happened: the woman missing on that Royal American (I believe) ship. But that one I think she fell overboard. :gaah:

 

[feralwriter]

Hi, & thanks for the Hell's Angels info. Still, it makes me wonder. Why make up something like that, then not follow thru? Cold feet? Not enough of a deal to make your info. worth giving out? Just seems odd that that Hell's Angel gained nothing from saying something to the authorities about Gricar.

I agree the laptop may, in fact, have squat to do with where he is or went. But if he wasn't retiring for 8 or so months? Why would he 8 months prior be fiddling with the hard drive in the car, trying to get it out, & it ended up in the river? I know I'm creating a scenario here-- maybe it wasn't the hard drive he was fiddling with in the car or wherever it was he was fiddling with whatever it was. It sorta seems to me he was a Type-A person. Just from that, at least in my experience as that's how I am, I'll research something ahead of time, but not actually DO it until the last minute. I would think Gricar would maybe research how to fry it, but wouldn't a public servant simply leave computer stuff to the IT dept.?

Like I posted above (or below this post, wherever), I find it odd the dog(s) only tracked him in the near vicinity of the MiniCooper, but not INTO the shopping area(s), nor TO the river. That makes me think someone pulled up to the left, & he briefly got out of his car, then into the other car.

And if- like you surmised- one scenario could be telling the County he tripped, oops, his bad, computer gone, WHY would he do that? What would have been so important he didn't want anyone to look at it?

It was parents' weekend at Bucknell, so he might have just run into someone & walked around the shops talking about antiques. Last, that book open to that page on his work desk. That's plain creepy. Almost like he was saying, "Okay, people, I'm not coming back. This is what you do next." Like a dark, inside joke with himself.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Lara, the daughter, is interesting. She flew in several times in 2005 and talked to the press; then she stopped and RFG's nephew became spokesman. I'm told that she never checked with BPD on the status of the case. She testified by telephone at hearing to declare RFG dead. Is that unusual? Perhaps, or perhaps she was having a difficult time with this.

RFG and his first wife LG, adopted Lara in 1978-80. They divorced in 1992, though it was somewhat amicable. From what I understand, RFG was not the custodial parent, from that point. Lara went to school in the Seattle, so she was not physically present in his life for a few years. She did call him just to say she loved him several times a week.

The guy on Twitter is Tony Gricar, the nephew, who was the spokesman.

The Hell's Angel may have been just an inmate trying to curry favor. The details were not accurate.

Respectfully snipped:

I agree the laptop may, in fact, have squat to do with where he is or went. But if he wasn't retiring for 8 or so months? Why would he 8 months prior be fiddling with the hard drive in the car, trying to get it out, & it ended up in the river? I know I'm creating a scenario here-- maybe it wasn't the hard drive he was fiddling with in the car or wherever it was he was fiddling with whatever it was. It sorta seems to me he was a Type-A person. Just from that, at least in my experience as that's how I am, I'll research something ahead of time, but not actually DO it until the last minute. I would think Gricar would maybe research how to fry it, but wouldn't a public servant simply leave computer stuff to the IT dept.?

We can speculate all day, but RFG had used the laptop as a home computer until around 12/04. It could have been anything between financial records and personnel reports to something risque. In the last two years, if was discovered than a number of prosecutors, judges and at least two state Supreme Court justices, had been receiving and sending risque jokes and photos to each other, via e-mail for years, so I don't think that would be a possibility. Nothing really bad, just embarrassing.

One important thing about Lewisburg. RFG was reasonably well known in the Johnstown-Altoona, State College (A-J-SC) media market. The various TV stations covered, and were watched, primary, by people in that market. Lewisburg is not in the A-J-SC media market. It would be much more likely that someone, a stranger, would recognize him in the J-A-SC than in Lewisburg. Whether that was intentional or not is unknown.

 

[feralwriter]

Thank you for the info. It fills in some blanks for me. I'm reading in the Hell's Angel thread you pointed me to. One can get lost for days in these threads.

I had a thought that were Gricar's disappearance the result of a former prosecution-revenge scenario, I'd think that person who orchestrated his disappearance would want to send a message to that prosecutorial office in general. Like, an anonymous message sent to, say, a news station, something along the lines of "This is what you get when you put the wrong man in jail." That type of action might be more in line with a more 'disorganized' type offender, versus a clean hit at top levels. It seems to me were it an actual pedophile ring-related murder, they'd take zero chances with an action like that, & would desire zero notoriety.

So Gricar let the laptop sit, with whatever sensitive info. he wanted to get rid of, sit unused from 12/04 until mid-April, 2005. The day he disappeared, or the day before that, he was apparently in possession of it. Maybe it did have a search history for destinations. I wonder if that history would fall under the purview of google records. Maybe he used different email addresses, or otherwise used a specific email for that particular laptop. Of course, now there exist more ways to privately find info. without being tracked online, versus 12 years back. Or he could have just been ridding the hard drive of jokes sent back & forth.

"Whether that was intentional or not is unknown." Not sure what you mean here. That he didn't want to be recognized where he went by the general public in Lewisburg? I think I read that antique shopkeepers were familiar with his face, however. I mean, he ended up at a place that was significant to him. Had he wanted to be totally unrecognized, & toss the laptop, I'd think he'd drive or otherwise get to a remote location in the woods with a river nearby. He could literally have made himself invisible in getting rid of it were water his 1st choise. Even just going to Jersey, renting a fishing boat or something, & dropping it in the ocean, or like taking the Lewis Ferry in Delaware & dropping it off the side...

That's interesting about Lara. Were she across the country, phoning in her deposition or whatever, to witness declaring her father dead might be normal. And she may have been just counting on Tony's reports about case progress or lack thereof. I can say were I her, I would want to meet in person directly with the head of whatever task force there was on my father, only because I'm good at reading between the lines with words, tone, posture, facial expressions, etc. Of course, it might be that I would be useless in that regard because I might be overwhelmed with emotion to sit down with LE & go over the case. But I think I'd be able to get myself together for an hour or so every once in a while for that. Maybe she just needed to move on. When there's steadily no new info., that's understandable. It would be like hitting her head against a brick wall.

I'm leaning, now, AWAY from a self-disappearance. At any rate, he seemed a good man, it is an intriguing case, & I don't have anything, really, that can help decipher it but 1/2 baked speculations. Maybe he simply was in the wrong place at the wrong time & ran into a serial killer. Of course, the odds are far higher he's in the river, still unfound, than running into the ghost of Jeffrey Dahmer.

I guess looking at out-of-character actions is a key to deconstructing a mystery like this, unless we go with a theory that's more random in nature, such as hitting his head by accident falling out of a tree in deep woods somewhere, not being discovered, then animals dragging him off, for instance. Either he or someone else threw that laptop in the river. Just that laptop keeps coming back to me as being the key that could unlock this.

 

[feralwriter]

I wonder why Gricar would print a map of the route to Lburg. Had he not been there many times? Was that map found in his car? :thinking:

 

[Ozoner]

Thank you for the info. It fills in some blanks for me. I'm reading in the Hell's Angel thread you pointed me to. One can get lost for days in these threads.

I had a thought that were Gricar's disappearance the result of a former prosecution-revenge scenario, I'd think that person who orchestrated his disappearance would want to send a message to that prosecutorial office in general. Like, an anonymous message sent to, say, a news station, something along the lines of "This is what you get when you put the wrong man in jail." That type of action might be more in line with a more 'disorganized' type offender, versus a clean hit at top levels. It seems to me were it an actual pedophile ring-related murder, they'd take zero chances with an action like that, & would desire zero notoriety.

I wouldn't write off the Hell's Angels possibility all together. The witness's details may not have been accurate, but if got his information second or third hand, then I wouldn't expect them to be.

<modsnip>

ETA: I still think suicide is the most likely possibility, followed by voluntary disappearance.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I wouldn't write off the Hell's Angels possibility all together. The witness's details may not have been accurate, but if got his information second or third hand, then I wouldn't expect them to be.

<modsnip>

ETA: I still think suicide is the most likely possibility, followed by voluntary disappearance.

It wasn't a witness it was an informant who said, in effect, **The guy who did it told me where the body was.** Trying to match up a location with some of the details Buenher gave, was an impossibility. There was no mine shaft that was accessible in 2005, but closed, and cemented over, by 2013.

The problem that I have with the Hell's Angels (HA) story is that it would be next to impossible to have followed RFG to Lewisburg, without him realizing it. Any HA would have had to known RFG was going to be in Lewisburg.