PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[chaleigh26]

Ray Gricar episode
http://thegenerationwhypodcast.com/ray-gricar-262-generation-why

 

[Tiana]

JJ,
You know a lot about this case and it has always fascinated me since the beginning. That being said, I was wondering if you had any information on the following questions that I've thought about recently.
1) Do you know if any of the authorities have asked The Security Deposit Box (Seattle, WA) if Ray Gricar had an anonymous account there?
2) Do you know if the authorities have combed through the USPS records (post 2001) to find out if Ray had a pattern of sending his daughter communications and/or packages in the mail?
3) I have read accounts that state only cigarette ash was found in the car and other accounts that state that cigarette butts were found in the car. If butts were found, do you know if DNA was extracted from them?
4) Do you know if the authorities have gone through the flight logs of all the planes at Penn State or in the immediate area?

Thank you,
Tiana

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The pod cast contain a number of inaccurate statements, e.g. that RFG's prints were found in the car. There were no clear prints found in the car.

They also didn't do something that we have done here, look at his finances. Some of that information is actually posted here and may have given them more insight into the case.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped:

JJ,

1) Do you know if any of the authorities have asked The Security Deposit Box (Seattle, WA) if Ray Gricar had an anonymous account there?

Not that I know of. Could you describe what the The Security Deposit Box is.

2) Do you know if the authorities have combed through the USPS records (post 2001) to find out if Ray had a pattern of sending his daughter communications and/or packages in the mail?

I can pretty much guarantee no. It would take a federal court order to get that information, if it existed.

3) I have read accounts that state only cigarette ash was found in the car and other accounts that state that cigarette butts were found in the car. If butts were found, do you know if DNA was extracted from them?

There were cigarette butts, but they were found in the parking lot near the Mini; they very easily could be someone there before or after the Mini was parked there.

Yes, police did check them for DNA matched and found no matches against the criminal database. There was a big backlog in the database at the time.

4) Do you know if the authorities have gone through the flight logs of all the planes at Penn State or in the immediate area?

Thank you,
Tiana

I'm pretty sure no. I will note that there is no airport in the immediate area. The closest with passenger service is in Williamsport, but it is about 30 miles away, by car. He would have had to have gone by car or bus.

He would have had to show ID to board a plane, so, if he used his real ID, I think he would be in a database.

 

[Betty P]

The pod cast contain a number of inaccurate statements, e.g. that RFG's prints were found in the car. There were no clear prints found in the car.

They also didn't do something that we have done here, look at his finances. Some of that information is actually posted here and my have given them more insight into the case.

Glad to see some interest again in this case, you've done a great job keeping interest going.

Question about the fingerprints in the car: You say there were no clear prints in the car. Does this mean it appears someone wiped down the car to remove prints?

Apologies in advance if this has been asked and answered before.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Glad to see some interest again in this case, you've done a great job keeping interest going.

Question about the fingerprints in the car: You say there were no clear prints in the car. Does this mean it appears someone wiped down the car to remove prints?

Apologies in advance if this has been asked and answered before.

According to the police, there was no wipe down. There was a thin layer of dust on the surfaces in the Mini Cooper indicating it wasn't wiped. LE also found partial prints where there was not enough ridges to identify. RFG's DNA was in a water bottle that was found in the Mini.

 

[Betty P]

According to the police, there was no wipe down. There was a thin layer of dust on the surfaces in the Mini Cooper indicating it wasn't wiped. LE also found partial prints where there was not enough ridges to identify. RFG's DNA was in a water bottle that was found in the Mini.

Thanks for that information! Frustrating case.

 

[Trackergd]

He would have had to show ID to board a plane, so, if he used his real ID, I think he would be in a database.

Respectfully snipped.

What is the closest small airfield where light aircraft fly in and out of? No requirement to provide ID for getting a ride in a friends Cessna...or Gulf Stream.

 

[Tiana]

JJ,

The Security Deposit Box is a company in Seattle, WA that allows users to rent security boxes, AND, for an additional fee, a user can choose to set up an anonymous account. The ONLY reason I thought of it was because I was watching some old real-life crime shows and some bank robbers were using this company to hold their stash so they would stay under the radar. They also set up anonymous accounts and only withdrew just enough money to pay their bills. The only reason they were caught was because one of them turned on the others. I was not aware that security deposit boxes could be rented under anonymous means.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

What is the closest small airfield where light aircraft fly in and out of? No requirement to provide ID for getting a ride in a friends Cessna...or Gulf Stream.

I am referring to commercial passenger services. Short of an empty field, nothing within walking distance. There was a grass field outside of Lewisburg. I remember see a photo that had a wind sock next to a vacant field. I think that someone would have remembered. I cannot even see a landing strip ofn satellite photos.

Sunbury airport has an airport on an island in the Susquehanna; it is about 7.5 miles as the crow flies. Grass field, no lights, and it is surrounded by horizontal logs. Danville actually has a very nice field, with a long paved runway and possibly lights; it is about 13 miles away.

I doubt if jet could land or take off from the first two; I can't even find the first one.

If there was a Cessna, they won't be keeping a log.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ,

The Security Deposit Box is a company in Seattle, WA that allows users to rent security boxes, AND, for an additional fee, a user can choose to set up an anonymous account. The ONLY reason I thought of it was because I was watching some old real-life crime shows and some bank robbers were using this company to hold their stash so they would stay under the radar. They also set up anonymous accounts and only withdrew just enough money to pay their bills. The only reason they were caught was because one of them turned on the others. I was not aware that security deposit boxes could be rented under anonymous means.

I couldn't find the company, but I'd assume it was as safe as a bank vault.

There would be two problems.

1. You couldn't really spend it, as you noted. It also would create a report from the bank to the Treasury. It sets off red flags at about the $7 to $10 k level (see Eliot Spitzer). It would take a very long time, but that the possibility.

2. It is not the safest method of transfer. Mail does get stolen. It gets sent tho the wrong address. The machines used in sorting do occasionally rip the mail open. I've had it happen to me occasionally.

If it's anonymous, it would be hard to track.

Even with the problems, it would be possible.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I did find the airstrip; it is near Hospital Dr. and Karr Road. In is near the Penitentiary.

Completely grass, no hangers. I would suspect that the good folks at Lewisburg Penitentiary would be keeping an eye on who landed.

 

[Tiana]

I couldn't find the company, but I'd assume it was as safe as a bank vault.

There would be two problems.

1. You couldn't really spend it, as you noted. It also would create a report from the bank to the Treasury. It sets off red flags at about the $7 to $10 k level (see Eliot Spitzer). It would take a very long time, but that the possibility.

2. It is not the safest method of transfer. Mail does get stolen. It gets sent tho the wrong address. The machines used in sorting do occasionally rip the mail open. I've had it happen to me occasionally.

If it's anonymous, it would be hard to track.

Even with the problems, it would be possible.

JJ,

Here is an interesting article on privately owned safe deposit boxes. According to the article, it infers that one could definitely have an anonymous account and that no records would be sent to Treasury because legally they offer storage services only and are not banks. Let me know what you think. So, if one wanted to disappear and not have any financial trail, one could send (perhaps Fed-Ex) packages to someone they trusted to deposit into an account or they could perhaps vacation in the locale of the company and bring the cash with them and deposit it at the same time each year. Just thinking out loud, here......how it would be possible to not leave any financial trail if someone really does not want to be found and do everything legally at the same time.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ms-seen-as-crime-shield-idUSTRE73E5GC20110415

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ,

Here is an interesting article on privately owned safe deposit boxes. According to the article, it infers that one could definitely have an anonymous account and that no records would be sent to Treasury because legally they offer storage services only and are not banks. Let me know what you think. So, if one wanted to disappear and not have any financial trail, one could send (perhaps Fed-Ex) packages to someone they trusted to deposit into an account or they could perhaps vacation in the locale of the company and bring the cash with them and deposit it at the same time each year. Just thinking out loud, here......how it would be possible to not leave any financial trail if someone really does not want to be found and do everything legally at the same time.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ms-seen-as-crime-shield-idUSTRE73E5GC20110415

That is excellent.

Basically it would be a box where either cash, or something like gold, is put into a secure storage facility by a trusted friend.

Hypothetically, RFG could take money out of the bank or when he cashed his paycheck, mail (or Fed Ex or UPS) it to a trusted friend who takes it and puts it in facility. He could have found a more local facility as well, and done it himself..

The problem would be at RFG's end. If he had the money in the bank, and he withdrew more than $7-10 K at a shot, it sends an alert to the Treasury (which is mentioned in the article). There are several ways that RFG could get around this, however.

If he would try to spend more than $7-10 K at a time, that could also send up a Treasury alert. same if he tried to deposit it in the US.

1. RFG could remove smaller amounts over time, and use different amounts. Averaging $3,000 per month, he could move $36 K/per year.

2. He could taken his paycheck in cash, and later deposited part of it.

I will note that somebody doing this could buy small amounts of gold, which is easier to transport and impossible to trace without a paper tail. Also, someone doing this in the alte 90's and early 2000, could have made about a 60% profit by 2005, and by today, could have quadrupled his investment.

In short, yes, it is possible. If RFG had his pay deposited directly, #2 could be ruled out.

This would be another way RFG could have hidden funds. Thank you, I didn't think of that particular possibility.

 

[PaulR]

JJ,

Here is an interesting article on privately owned safe deposit boxes. According to the article, it infers that one could definitely have an anonymous account and that no records would be sent to Treasury because legally they offer storage services only and are not banks. Let me know what you think. So, if one wanted to disappear and not have any financial trail, one could send (perhaps Fed-Ex) packages to someone they trusted to deposit into an account or they could perhaps vacation in the locale of the company and bring the cash with them and deposit it at the same time each year. Just thinking out loud, here......how it would be possible to not leave any financial trail if someone really does not want to be found and do everything legally at the same time.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ms-seen-as-crime-shield-idUSTRE73E5GC20110415

I don't believe FedEx will even take cash. If you mail anything overseas, there's a customs declaration which says what is in the package - and while it isn't uncommon to lie about the value of electronics or something to evade duties, saying it is one thing and having a bundle of cash inside (or gold, or diamonds) would be a good way to get a criminal investigation started. Shipping hard cash around to another country would be seen as money laundering, perhaps because of drug sales or even for funding illegal activity like terrorism. Similar issues with bringing a lot of cash into a country, customs is going to wonder you didn't just wire the money like everyone else.

I'm still not sure if Gricar could leave a trail of withdrawing money for the purposes of living overseas, forensic accountants should be able to figure that one out easily since they do it all the time for divorce cases. Then there is why he didn't just move overseas like a lot of Americans do when they retire; I've heard reasons why Gricar would want to do it, but I haven't heard something that I would consider a strong reason.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't believe FedEx will even take cash. If you mail anything overseas, there's a customs declaration which says what is in the package - and while it isn't uncommon to lie about the value of electronics or something to evade duties, saying it is one thing and having a bundle of cash inside (or gold, or diamonds) would be a good way to get a criminal investigation started. Shipping hard cash around to another country would be seen as money laundering, perhaps because of drug sales or even for funding illegal activity like terrorism. Similar issues with bringing a lot of cash into a country, customs is going to wonder you didn't just wire the money like everyone else.

They will if Customs discovers it, and it was sent abroad. Tiana has shown a possibility where the money could remain in the US. How often does Customs check every suitcase?

Do you mean Fed Ex won't accept money as payment or to be shipped? In the latter case, how would they know?

I'm still not sure if Gricar could leave a trail of withdrawing money for the purposes of living overseas, forensic accountants should be able to figure that one out easily since they do it all the time for divorce cases. Then there is why he didn't just move overseas like a lot of Americans do when they retire; I've heard reasons why Gricar would want to do it, but I haven't heard something that I would consider a strong reason.

One possibility is that he was sheltering assets before his divorce. It would be difficult getting the money back into the US.

 

[PaulR]

They will if Customs discovers it, and it was sent abroad. Tiana has shown a possibility where the money could remain in the US. How often does Customs check every suitcase?

We're looking at foreign customs, not ours. It would depend on country I suppose. I can imagine some countries where the customs agents would be a bit more "aggressive" in searching packages that seemed to be suspiciously light. It's not like someone would file a complaint if undeclared cash was swiped from a package, or the package was never delivered.

Do you mean Fed Ex won't accept money as payment or to be shipped? In the latter case, how would they know?

FedEx will not ship cash. Neither do other carriers: http://moneyseizures.com/shipping-money-fedex-ups-dhl/ I do not know if they search packages routinely as I've never tried to violate shipping laws.

One possibility is that he was sheltering assets before his divorce. It would be difficult getting the money back into the US.

If he was sheltering money, I think a decent forensic accountant would pick up on that. It should have come up during the divorce when his ex-wife would have wondered where all the money went. This is not uncommon. Judges and divorce attorneys see the "spouse tries to hide their assets" trick all the time. And the consequences for a District Attorney to be found hiding assets would be much more severe than for ordinary people.

Also outside the US, it still has to be where Gricar would use the money, otherwise he has to deal with the same problem of storing and transporting cash across borders.

 

[Tiana]

PaulR,

One possibility is that he is in plain sight in a remote area, simply not wanting to be found. We hear stories all the time how people have hidden in remote places and not drawn any attention to themselves until something unusual happens and they get exposed. It is quite conceivable to me that he could have done it. One problem with this theory is that the older he gets the more he might need medical attention and if he's not using any fake IDs then he would eventually come to the surface unless his personal constitution is so strong that he will avoid medical attention at all costs.

 

[PaulR]

PaulR,

One possibility is that he is in plain sight in a remote area, simply not wanting to be found. We hear stories all the time how people have hidden in remote places and not drawn any attention to themselves until something unusual happens and they get exposed. It is quite conceivable to me that he could have done it. One problem with this theory is that the older he gets the more he might need medical attention and if he's not using any fake IDs then he would eventually come to the surface unless his personal constitution is so strong that he will avoid medical attention at all costs.

That's possible, and you point out one issue. He'd be 72 now. It's possible he has enough money to cover minor medical issues by hiring a doctor who wouldn't ask too many questions, but it wouldn't be enough for major medical issues. And then there's the possibility, especially in a post-911 world, that someone will be suspicious of the guy who refuses to give out his social security number and whose name is fake and is living in the woods.

I still don't see why he'd go through all this trouble though. Policemen, judges, and prosecutors retire all the time and don't go into this kind of hiding.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped. Exceptionally good points, btw.

We're looking at foreign customs, not ours. It would depend on country I suppose. I can imagine some countries where the customs agents would be a bit more "aggressive" in searching packages that seemed to be suspiciously light. It's not like someone would file a complaint if undeclared cash was swiped from a package, or the package was never delivered.

How aggressive are they at the Canadian Border or in Western European countries, e.g. Switzerland?

RFG was eligible for Slovenian citizenship; it was part of the EU as of 2004. Those boarders may not be too secure.

FedEx will not ship cash. Neither do other carriers: http://moneyseizures.com/shipping-money-fedex-ups-dhl/ I do not know if they search packages routinely as I've never tried to violate shipping laws.

I would guess they don't do too many searches, if any. Cash, or something liquid, like gold, could be shipped without the company knowing it.

BBM

If he was sheltering money, I think a decent forensic accountant would pick up on that. It should have come up during the divorce when his ex-wife would have wondered where all the money went. This is not uncommon. Judges and divorce attorneys see the "spouse tries to hide their assets" trick all the time. And the consequences for a District Attorney to be found hiding assets would be much more severe than for ordinary people.

LE never did a forensic audit. They looked at cash withdrawals back to about 2003-04, but that was it.

RFG filed for the divorce, which was concluded in about 4.5 months. I'm not sure how much his ex-wife looked. It was not strongly contested.