PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[J. J. in Phila]

I hope that anyone reading this understands that the nurses comment is meant to be humorous.

I have a good friend, female, that is a nurse and that is 4'11." She was no amazon, but she could, by herself, move a 250 to 300 pound patient from a bed to a gurney or a chair, and vice versa. She couldn't pick a up 180 pounds and carry it down the street over her shoulder, but she could pull on a carpet or tarp (or trash bag), or put it into an airtight tote and slide the tote along the floor or ground.

Obviously, if someone would try to to this in a more built up area, like Lewisburg, it would be much more noticeable. In a more secluded, rural area, someone moving a body would be much less likely to be seen.

 

[SeekingJana]

I know a Senior CSP Manager and Scrub Nurse who threatens to use a cranial trephine on me once in a while....

Your nurse friend is simply looking for your brain, Scarecrow. Trying to save you a trip to that awful wizard in Oz. ( j/k of course)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Remains not of Ray Gricar. They were of a NY man named Robert E. Cochran, 47 who disappeared in 2013. Remains in Snake Spring identified | News, Sports, Jobs - Altoona Mirror

This was one that couldn't ruled out immediately, though the location made it unlikely.

Another story on it: Bedford skeletal remains identified

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

 

[SeekingJana]

Remains not of Ray Gricar. They were of a NY man named Robert E. Cochran, 47 who disappeared in 2013. Remains in Snake Spring identified | News, Sports, Jobs - Altoona Mirror

This was one that couldn't ruled out immediately, though the location made it unlikely.

Another story on it: Bedford skeletal remains identified

Thank you, J.J. Another reason to be thankful this season, IMO.

 

[SeekingJana]

A Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

I had come to post the same to all who read or post ( or both) on the case of Ray F. Gricar. Thank you for your well wishes.

What's everyone planning? We have no family within 1000 miles, so we're grilling outdoors and spending time together tomorrow and through the weekend.
It's very warm here and is not expected to be part of the " Big Chill".

I hope all of you in PA and thereabouts are warm and cozy and have a wonderfully blessed Thanksgiving and long holiday weekend.

 

[minazoe]

Now I have a weird vision of Ray being murdered in a tryst. whoever did it could have come down at night with his keys and checked out the car and left the ash. any idiot knows to wear gloves...this is every tv show you ever watched in your life.

changes the whole game.

I always believed there was communication on that laptop he was interested in hiding or disposing of.

he could have been being blackmailed too. but now I think of him entering a building to see someone. moo

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Now I have a weird vision of Ray being murdered in a tryst. whoever did it could have come down at night with his keys and checked out the car and left the ash. any idiot knows to wear gloves...this is every tv show you ever watched in your life.

changes the whole game.

I always believed there was communication on that laptop he was interested in hiding or disposing of.

he could have been being blackmailed too. but now I think of him entering a building to see someone. moo

In terms of murder, a clandestine meeting with a lover is the most likely possibility. If he were planning to end a relationship, that could cause stress and explain his demeanor. It would explain why he didn't tell anyone where he would be. It would explain the "mystery woman." It would even explain why he turned off his cell phone (he didn't want to be disturbed).

There are a few things that a romantic encounter doesn't explain.

1. The laptop. Even if there was communication between RFG on the laptop, how would the lover-killer know that RFG only used the laptop. He had 2 other computers. Any communication could have been on one these other computers. The only person that knew what was the laptop, and not on any other computer, was RFG.

2. Finances. Any money going to support a lover, or for blackmail, would have shown a transfer of funds, even during 2005. That should have shown up. There is still the question of why RFG didn't have more money.

3. Hiding the body. It is not impossible, but it does take some effort. That is difficult, unless the the lover planned to hide a body. If the lover killed RFG in a jealous rage in a motel suite, she would have to clean up and remove the body. If RFG had a fatal accident, or a health crisis, and died, the lover would still have to hide the body.

Meeting at a motel for a tryst would be unlikely; meeting at the lover's residence, or vacation home, could explain it. This is one of those possibilities that haunts me.

 

[SeekingJana]

Now I have a weird vision of Ray being murdered in a tryst. whoever did it could have come down at night with his keys and checked out the car and left the ash. any idiot knows to wear gloves...this is every tv show you ever watched in your life.

changes the whole game.

I always believed there was communication on that laptop he was interested in hiding or disposing of.

he could have been being blackmailed too. but now I think of him entering a building to see someone. moo

Why would he be having a tryst, as you call it, in Lewisburg?
He wasn't married, he could have checked into a hotel much closer to where he lived if all he was having was a love affair.

BTW, what makes you think a sitting D.A. would not get all the info out there on the person he was planning to see ahead of time? He may well have been in love with someone other than Patty F., we don't know, but if he was, he'd pick an upstanding person to be with, not an ASPD woman who would have had to have lesser crimes already on the books. Anti-Social disordered people usually have a long string of criminal offenses before they ever get to the point of killing a person, and most never kill a person.

How many unmarried men do YOU know who were murdered by their lover? Maybe 0?

In my world, and in his age group at the time, female killers of unmarried boyfriends are exceedingly rare. I mean- why go to bed with someone if your intent is to kill them? And why not get mental health if you have homicidal urges related to what is considered a passionate act ( the tryst you speak of)?

IMO, this is very flawed logic. So flawed, it certainly wouldn't get on the TV shows you mentioned unless the female person was in a gang or insane.

Almost everything points to him planning to leave and not return. No crime committed, no big screenplay acted out.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for brevity.

Why would he be having a tryst, as you call it, in Lewisburg?
He wasn't married, he could have checked into a hotel much closer to where he lived if all he was having was a love affair.

There are several reasons.

1. He wanted to maintain a relationship with PEF; he either didn't want her to know, or he didn't want to rub her nose in it. Some couples are okay with having one of the partners having casual sex on the side. More will pretend not to notice, if the partner is discrete.

2. The woman had a significant other (SO) and wanted something on the side with RFG.

3. The woman had a connection to a case. She was a defendant, a defendant's SO, or family member of a defendant, or was possibly a witness in a case.

4. Some combination of the above.

Before you say that #3 is impossible, it has happened and has happened in Central Pennsylvania. Former Bedford County District Attorney pleads guilty to corruption

Though not as bad, there was the "sexting scandal" in the Centre County DA's Office with an ADA Gricar had hired (it happened after RFG disappeared). Suit against former prosecutor has local ties

There are some very logical possibilities.

 

[SeekingJana]

Snipped for brevity.



There are several reasons.

1. He wanted to maintain a relationship with PEF; he either didn't want her to know, or he didn't want to rub her nose in it. Some couples are okay with having one of the partners having casual sex on the side. More will pretend not to notice, if the partner is discrete.

2. The woman had a significant other (SO) and wanted something on the side with RFG.

3. The woman had a connection to a case. She was a defendant, a defendant's SO, or family member of a defendant, or was possibly a witness in a case.

4. Some combination of the above.

Before you say that #3 is impossible, it has happened and has happened in Central Pennsylvania. Former Bedford County District Attorney pleads guilty to corruption

Though not as bad, there was the "sexting scandal" in the Centre County DA's Office with an ADA Gricar had hired (it happened after RFG disappeared). Suit against former prosecutor has local ties

There are some very logical possibilities.

But, why not a larger city rather than a very small town? You can go all out with the " He went antiquing there" or " Different media market" but for all we know, he went antiquing in another direction in a larger city just as easy to get to as Lewisburg. I don't know much about PA, and don't want to, but it seems to me that if " not being seen" was a consideration, one would not go to a very small town.

Plus, why stand around and shop in the SOS with another woman? Is that being discreet ( proper spelling)?
Is it really discreet to be seen in a diner, the Packwood House, the SOS and in the park in Lewisburg if the purpose for being there was a discreet romp?

This doesn't make sense to me. You meet that special someone in a city that's almost equidistant for both parties and that's LARGE. Not tiny. You find a boutique hotel that's upscale, you tip well, and you get great service with a very low chance of outsider crime. ( Not that I think for one second that a lover killed him. Or watched him die and didn't do CPR and call 911 or anything but get her coat and purse and leave, either).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The media market would be the key in this scenario.

There are some larger towns, Altoona, Johnstown, even State College, but they are all with the Johnstown-Altoona-State College(J-A-SC) media market. If RFG traveled, as the crow flies, south, west, or north for 50 miles or less, he'd still be in that media market and run a high chance of being recognized. Remember that he was spotted about 45 miles south of Bellefonte the day before.

If RFG was with a woman, and either he, the woman, or both, did not want to seen together, the Lewisburg area is a good choice.

There are also these possibilities:

- It was easier for the woman to get to Lewisburg.

- They would have access to a private place, e.g. a vacation cabin, in the Lewisburg area.

It would be discrete if RFG was planning to return. Nobody would be checking if he returned home on the evening of 4/15/05 or sometime on 4/16/05.

 

[minazoe]

But, why not a larger city rather than a very small town? You can go all out with the " He went antiquing there" or " Different media market" but for all we know, he went antiquing in another direction in a larger city just as easy to get to as Lewisburg. I don't know much about PA, and don't want to, but it seems to me that if " not being seen" was a consideration, one would not go to a very small town.

Plus, why stand around and shop in the SOS with another woman? Is that being discreet ( proper spelling)?
Is it really discreet to be seen in a diner, the Packwood House, the SOS and in the park in Lewisburg if the purpose for being there was a discreet romp?

This doesn't make sense to me. You meet that special someone in a city that's almost equidistant for both parties and that's LARGE. Not tiny. You find a boutique hotel that's upscale, you tip well, and you get great service with a very low chance of outsider crime. ( Not that I think for one second that a lover killed him. Or watched him die and didn't do CPR and call 911 or anything but get her coat and purse and leave, either).

Nothing he did that day including standing around with an unknown woman in an antique store in a small town as opposed to a big city inside a building or outside a building , smoking or not, disposing of a hard drive near or away from a forest or body of water would be notable or noticeable had he not vanished. MOO

 

[SeekingJana]

Nothing he did that day including standing around with an unknown woman in an antique store in a small town as opposed to a big city inside a building or outside a building , smoking or not, disposing of a hard drive near or away from a forest or body of water would be notable or noticeable had he not vanished. MOO

Which neither supports nor refutes your unsubstantiated argument that " He's dead".
Whatever case details you glean, to you they mean " He's dead".
No one else sees it in such black and white terms because?
BECAUSE LE SAYS THERE ARE NO SIGNS OF FOUL PLAY.

I've had enough of the arguments with no ending. I doubt Ray Gricar is dead, but this line of thinking is.

To the other case posters- Thanks for the years of discourse. I need to focus my attention to other things. If this case ever has any resolution ( through the LE channels, of course, not through any armchair detectives), maybe it will be in some of our lifetimes.
Au Revoir

 

[minazoe]

it's just my personal rumination, i find all theories here have potential to be correct.

check out the abby and libby thread, there is some new action.. Cheers! IMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This is not limiting the possibilities to foul play. It is discussing one possible scenario.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I just saw this, but it is about remains found, and identified as Kory Zimmer : Missing Dauphin County man’s body found

The reason I'm posting this is because of how they think Zimmer died. It was due to a medical problem.

One unlikely theory I've suggested is that RFG had a medical problem, an accident when out walking, and died as a result.

Over the past 13+ years, we can find examples, in Central Pennsylvania, of people/remains being found in remote areas after being murdered (and the body hidden), committing suicide, and now, due to a health issue. We have also had examples of people voluntarily disappearing.

In all that time, however, I do not recall an incident of where a body went into the Susquehanna and was not recovered.

 

[minazoe]

I think a tryst doesn't have to occur in a hotel, could be a private home or business, a secluded apartment....its a lot easier in a small town with few people around after hours, to do a lot of nefarious activities, think about it..

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think a tryst doesn't have to occur in a hotel, could be a private home or business, a secluded apartment....its a lot easier in a small town with few people around after hours, to do a lot of nefarious activities, think about it..

If, and this is a big if, RFG was in Lewisburg for a romantic encounter, and it resulted in his death, it is exceptionally unlikely that it happened in a motel.

I've been looking at the possibility of a romantic encounter, but in a vacation home. It would probably be secluded.

That said, I'd give the chance of this happening at about 20%, with just under 5% being some other foul play scenario.

 

[Curiosum]

Yep, we nurses are a homicidal group. When we aren't busy saving lives, we're busy killing people.

We spend 4-8 years in college ( depending on degree level obtained) to learn how to slide deceased adult men into hiding places or hoist them up into vehicle trunks, etc.
Also, we are such gloomy Gertrudes that we take rejection very badly, hatchet at the ready, slick leaf bag sized Steel Sak sliding garbage bags in the glove box. ( One would hold an adult male).

My turn to be facetious. Just as in every profession under the sun, there have been killer nurses and doctors, but overwhelmingly, the healing professionals do their very best to keep people alive and actively help them get well.

I have had nurse co-worker friends who were murdered by their ex husbands and the case here on WS of my nurse friend who was murdered by her drug- addled boyfriend 3 years ago, but I've never known any nurse who killed anyone on or off the job.

Have you?

Michelle Michael was convicted of killing her husband.