PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[Trackergd]

I'm still in the walk away camp. Now that I am done College (after 30 years)(I got a 100% on my final exam) I may have a tad more time. My main focus is getting my mitts on a mini and seeing for myself if I can reach over and touch the passenger side window ledge and if so, can I get a simulated laptop out the passenger side window and over the side of a (simulated) bridge. I really want to nail down if someone else was in the car at one point, doing the tossing out the window, or if RFG could have done it alone.

As far as tossing the hard drive, I have a theory that RFG tossed the drive in the river, but was unsatisfied with how far out it went and opted for plan B for the laptop.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Congratulations on completing your degree.

I'm going to make a distinction between the laptop and the drive. Under just about any scenario, RFG could have tossed the drive. It is very likely that he did. Why? Because he talked about doing it, got software to do it, and googled how to do it. Further someone saw him in the Mini in Lewisburg with the laptop.

The laptop itself is different. If RFG just wanted to the data on his laptop's drive to disappear, he could remove the drive at the house, take it with him, and toss it. If RFG wanted to destroy the data, he could have easily tossed the laptop from the "walkway side" (south side) of the bridge.

This is what RFG would have had to do, presumably of he tossed the laptop.

1. Take the laptop out of the case, and return the case.

2. Drive to Lewisburg.

3. Remove the drive.

(assuming this was done from a vehicle)

4. Toss the drive in the river from the park.

5. Cross the bridge.

6. Recross the bridge and toss the drive.

Now, if he just wanted to get rid of the data, RFG could have taken the steps 1, 3, 2, and 4. Even if he wanted to look at something on the laptop while in Lewisburg, he still would not have to remove the drive.

I can come up with two reasons why RFG would do this:

A. He was going to get a replacement drive. Possible, but it wouldn't explain why he took the entire laptop to Lewisburg. If he did toss the laptop, he couldn't replace the drive.

B. He didn't want anyone to know he removed the drive. If people were looking for the laptop, they would assume that the drive was in, or near, the laptop. It is probably that, at some point, someone would find laptop and identify it from the tags.

There are a couple of reasons why RFG would not want someone to know he removed the drive.

A. He was planning to report the laptop was lost "accidentally." This would point to something involuntary, primarily foul play.

B. He wanted to make extra sure that the data could not be recovered because it was in the water too long. That points to something voluntary, but not suicide

This points away from suicide, for two reasons.

First, RFG would have go through those seven steps instead of just tossing the laptop, or the drive. They are looking, primarily for his body, not for a laptop or a drive.

Second, RFG doesn't know if anyone will be looking for the laptop. His remains could be found before LE even knows that the laptop is missing. He doesn't know if the police are going to ask PEF about the laptop. Eventually, it will be discovered missing, but no one will launch a massive search for the drive a week later.

If RFG removes the drive and puts the laptop, LE might not immediately realize it is missing the drive. On the evening of 4/18/05, LE asked PEF if RFG had another computer. She said yes, got it and opened the case. What if she, and LE opened the case and say the laptop. They would not immediately know the drive was missing. LE might not have immediately turned it on. When they did, they might have initially thought it needed a charge.

RFG would have basically needed to know that PEF would have reported him missing that night, and that the police would start looking for him just after that. He would have to know that the car would have been traced to Lewisburg and that the drive would be discovered missing, prior to his remains being discovered.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

First, welcome pd.

Two things, one not too important.

While Gricar (RFG) did like shopping at Street of Shops (SoS) in Lewisburg, he did not say that either antiquing was his intent, nor thatLewisburg was his destination. He said that was on Route 192 heading in that direction of Lewisburg, i.e.moving away from Bellefonte.

The more important one was the code book. It was found on the desk of the 1st assistant DA, who was basically in charge when RFG wasn't there. It was not open to that page dealing with a replacement; when they opened the book, it opened to that page. That is an indication that someone had recently looked at the page, but not necessary RFG.

RFG was last in the office on 4/14/05 at about 9:00 PM; it was found in the morning of 4/18. I've tried to do some simulations with similar books, and was not able to get the book to reopen after roughly 84 hours. I was also to do that after several hours.

It is possible someone could have cracked the spine on the book 84 hours before; that would require the book to be opened and closed repeatedly, left open, faced down, on a surface, for a number of days, or opened, placed face down, and then put a lot of weight on it for a while. Sitting on it for five minutes, for example, would not do it.

It is possible that RFG put the book on the desk; it is nearly impossible that he was the last person to look at that spot.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I thought the use of the word "consensus" in a previous post. Are there details where is a consensus.i.e. we are exceptionally sure that something happened, or didn't happen? I thought I'd explore this.

 

[minazoe]

look, i think Ray was running from something..too many things point to that. That he would die by accident and disappear simultaneously would be hard unless someone hid his body..so then you have some one who hid a body of someone who died accidentally while he was running from something and destroying his hard drive.

NO!

Ray was in some kind of trouble and either had to split or he was whacked.
or he committed suicide .

I cant imagine him destroying that hard drive any other way, the hard drive was the property of the State and he knew that.

there was something destructive on that lap top, or if he ran, perhaps something that might help find him.

MOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

I cant imagine him destroying that hard drive any other way, the hard drive was the property of the State and he knew that.

there was something destructive on that lap top, or if he ran, perhaps something that might help find him.

MOO

On the first point, I definitely disagree.

RFG simply had to reimburse the county for the laptop. It was a used laptop, and the model was no longer made in 2005. A used, out of date model would not be that valuable.

RFG had used the laptop as a home computer. It doesn't look like it was reserved for just official use. Consider the cell phone; it was county issue. Yet RFG used it to call PEF about the dog, not something "official." It was county property, but he was using it as if it personal property.

On the second point, maybe. We have seen that other prosecutors and judges do send risque jokes over their computers. RFG could have been a sender or receiver of something like that and just didn't want the county IT people pawing through them. It could could have been something official, like personnel reports, and he did not want someone using it against his staff. It could have been financial data that RFG thought should be private. This could be nothing more than than a nature desire for privacy.

We do know that RFG wanted to get the data off the computer about a year prior to his disappearance.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Some of what was found in "Porngate" amounted to risque items. I did not regard them as anything other that jokes, but others felt that they were terrible. The former Centre County President Judge lost an appointment because of Christmas e-mail with "racial overtones." Judge, law school dean out as nominees for Pennsylvania Supreme Court That could be the type of things, things that may be regarded as minor, that RFG was worried about.

It could have been something hardcore, of course, but that might not have been related to his disappearance. It could have graphic e-mail between he and another woman, from a relationship that end long ago; it could have been graphic e-mail between he and PEF. It would be more that he felt things like that were personal and really didn't want anyone else to see.

Though it is unlikely, the laptop might not be tied to his disappearance. If it was, it is very likely to point to suicide or walkaway.

 

[Trackergd]

Can we rule out that RFG was blackmailing someone or someone was blackmailing him? Can we rule out that RFG had case information that he never wanted to see the light of day? Wiping a hard drive is as simple as using a military grade wiping hardware and then running a high power magnet over it. Using wiping hardware and driving 100 miles to toss it in a river borders on the extreme. Surprised he did not set it on fire and then toss it in the river. I think we are past the "assume" point on his wanting to destroy the data for ever. I am considering it fact. Now we are left with what was on the hard drive that was so sensitive that he would go to extreme means to get rid of it. I doubt it was case information unless there was payoff money attached to it. I doubt it was employee information. Two major reasons come to mind: Money and Sex. The list for both is long.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Very respectfully snipped for emphasis.

Can we rule out that RFG was blackmailing someone or someone was blackmailing him?

Yes, and no.

Payoff for being blackmailed? There was no known massive payoff or regular unaccounted for payments. There is also a logic problem. Assume that someone has something bad on RFG. Why would they kill him? If I'm going to blackmail someone, I'd want my victim to remain as healthy as possible so he can pay me. It isn't a reason to murder him. That you could rule out, if this was foul play.

There is zero evidence that RFG received any money. Nobody is asking "Where did RFG get all this money?"

Could payoff be something else other than money? As it was correctly stated, sex could be another form of payment. There have been a few examples, either attempted or carried out, by prosecutors in Central Pennsylvania.

Any prosecutor is in a position where he or she can decide whether or not to prosecute someone. Any prosecutor is in a position to find out embarrassing, but not necessarily criminal, things about a person. It is the nature of the job. A prosecutor could use that information to blackmail someone, not for money, but for sex. The person being blackmailed would have a motive to kill that prosecutor.

While I don't think it happened with RFG, I could not say that it is impossible.

Can we rule out that RFG had case information that he never wanted to see the light of day?

Probably not, with one exception. RFG could have found out something damaging, but not criminal, about someone during the course of an investigation; it would have been something not relevant to an investigation. He wasn't blackmailing anyone over it, but he still wanted to protect that person.

There could also be a situation involving a staff member that he felt should remain private. Suppose that he found out that a staffer was being treated for a psychological problem; it didn't effect the person's job performance and it was resolved. He may not have to see anyone else get that information.

It is the flip side of the coin to blackmailing someone. He could have been protecting someone.

There can be no question that RFG wanted to see that laptop data destroyed. I think that you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that RFG tossed the drive. The laptop itself is a different matter, though I think it is likely that he did.

 

[minazoe]

He disappeared the very day he drove all the way to Lewisburg to dump the hard drive.

these two facts are sewn together in my mind.

lets for a moment pretend the hard drive contained nothing nefarious and simply needed
destroying..

would you expect an investigation? NO! Would you worry some one might find it once destroyed and possibly be able to open it? MAYBE just a little..But would someone be looking for it? NO !

Who would know it was missing and try to find it? WHO? Why would they want to?

so would you drive to Lewisburg to destroy it? NO! because no one is looking for it and no one will be looking for it or even find it and you can pay the State.

Now if you think someone is going to be interested in that laptop for some important reason , you might drive to Lewisburg to get rid of it.

what is the reason?

the laptop is the tell.

mOO

 

[minazoe]

reasons Ray could be dead.

suicide due to depression . ( why no note? ) .
suicide due to break up ( possible affair that ended)
accidental death and subsequent concealment . ( seems wrong coupled with laptop)
murdered by convicted person unknown.
murdered in a cover up of a crime or to stop an indictment
murdered by a hit man
murdered by a lover in a breakup.

murdered in a completely different scenario and the whole Lewiburg crap with the car, hard drive etc. was staged.

Ray was committing crimes and was a crooked DA , hit a huge windfall illegally and decided to run.

mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Repectfully snipped.

He


Who would know it was missing and try to find it? WHO? Why would they want to?

so would you drive to Lewisburg to destroy it? NO! because no one is looking for it and no one will be looking for it or even find it and you can pay the State.

Someone might stumble across it. It had a county tag on it, so if, someday found it, they might say "Hey, I better call Centre County."

Now if you think someone is going to be interested in that laptop for some important reason , you might drive to Lewisburg to get rid of it.

what is the reason?

the laptop is the tell.

Two problems with this:

1. Nobody knew what was on the laptop, except RFG, unless they looked through it prior to the drive being tossed.

2. Nobody else knew if there were not duplicates of everything, or some of the things, someplace else. The data could have been copied onto a removable device, another computer (RFG had access to at least two other computers), online, or simply printed out.

RFG was the only person who could be sure what was on that laptop, and the only person who could know if there were copies someplace else.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

reasons Ray could be dead.

suicide due to depression . ( why no note? ) .
suicide due to break up ( possible affair that ended)
accidental death and subsequent concealment . ( seems wrong coupled with laptop)
murdered by convicted person unknown.
murdered in a cover up of a crime or to stop an indictment
murdered by a hit man
murdered by a lover in a breakup.

murdered in a completely different scenario and the whole Lewiburg crap with the car, hard drive etc. was staged.

Ray was committing crimes and was a crooked DA , hit a huge windfall illegally and decided to run.

mOO

Well, I do not rule out foul play, but no one could have staged the scent, and the witnesses.

Most people that commit suicide do not leave notes, so that is not significant.

Murdering a DA does not stop an indictment. All the paperwork would be there, in the office, and the police would have a record of the investigation.

Further, when RFG disappeared, nobody knew who the next DA would be. There were three viable candidates, Madeira and Bascome running for the Republican nomination, and Arnold, against a token candidate, running for the Democratic nomination. The two nominees, who ended up being Madeira(MTM) and Arnold(JKA), would then face each other in the general election in November. On 4/15/05, Bascom, MTM, and JKA all had a good of being the DA in January 2006.

There is no evidence of a "windfall," either in 2005 or back to 2001-02.

Could there be a lover? Possibly, but we don't know who.

The number of DA's murdered because of who they were currently or previously prosecuted is less than two dozen over the last 11 decades. It is possible, but very unlikely.

How would a hit man know RFG was going to be in Lewisburg? It would have been difficult following him and a lot easier to shoot him in Bellefonte when he answered the door. If a hit man knew that he would be in Lewisburg at a specific time would be possible, but how would the hit man know that?

 

[Trackergd]

Nobody knew what was on the laptop, with the possible exception of PF. Anyone wanting to murder RFG for what was on the laptop could not have known if a duplicate of the data had been made. RFG could have used that threat to keep himself alive. To me, that makes homicide to cover up the data less likely. If I was going into a situation like that (and I would not unless a family member was at risk), I would darn well have the same data on a remote drive. I have one just for that reason due to some of the cases I am involved in, and it is kept in a safe deposit box. I am convinced that the computer and drive are tied to the case due to the time frame that RFG was asking people and searching the internet on how to destroy the drive. I would be curious to see if he checked out any books from the library on that subject. I suspect there was more than the prior trip to the lake. I think RFG was searching for the ideal location with the least risk of discovery. I have looked at some Mini's and still have to prove out one way or another, if it was possible to toss the computer through the passenger window and over the wall while sitting in the drivers seat. At this moment, I am not convinced. It's the Engineer in me wanting to prove out the mechanics and physics involved. The drive is rather light and I am still trying to find biodegradable artifact material to simulate both to test out the possible scenario's.

 

[minazoe]

I thought Ray was seen at the spot where the hard drive was disposed of.

If no one actually saw him there and it was chucked out of the window..then anyone could have done it.

there is just something so wrong about this whole mess. MOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I thought Ray was seen at the spot where the hard drive was disposed of.

If no one actually saw him there and it was chucked out of the window..then anyone could have done it.

there is just something so wrong about this whole mess. MOO

He was, less than 100 yard from the spot where the drive could have been tossed.

The Mini was parked along Water Street roughly across from the Packwood House Museum. People there (3-4) actually saw him in the Mini. This was "lunch time" probably between noon and 1:00 PM on 4/15. That spot was about 75 yards from the spot where the drive was tossed.

The photo below was taken from the porch of the Packwood House on 7/30/08. The spot where the drive was tossed is probably in front of the third bench, the one to the left of the picnic table. The second photo (Trip 008) is taken at that spot but looking away from the river to the Packwood House.

At least one witness saw him outside of the Mini at that time sitting on a bench, though I don't know which one; you can see three bench, the closest facing the street and the other two facing the river. The one facing the street is 2-3 yards closer from the spot from where the drive was tossed (the edge of the river).

In the second photo (Trip 008) there is a bench in the foreground. That is no more than 4 yards from where the drive was probably tossed.

At most, RFG was seen to be under 75 yards from where the drive was tossed. He was not under constant surveillance, so he could have very easily have tossed the drive from that spot.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped for emphasis only.

The drive is rather light and I am still trying to find biodegradable artifact material to simulate both to test out the possible scenario's.

I did do some experiments with a hard drive from a desk top; it would probably be no more that twice as big or twice as heavy.

I took the drive into a vacant lot behind my house, and tossed it multiple times. Every time, tossing it underhanded, I could get it more than 50' feet, which would be the maximum distance the drive was from the bank. My upper body strength is not strong, and I certainly am no stronger than RFG in that regard; the laptop's drive probably weighed less that the one I was using and could be thrown further.

It is absolutely, 100%, physically possible for RFG to have tossed the drive from the river bank. That doesn't mean he did toss it, but it is absolutely possible that he did.

On 4/15/05, there was a lot of what was described as "debris" below the bank. It was things like branches, perhaps garbage, that was at least partly submerged. It was cleaned up over the summer and before the drive was found.

It is possible that the drive was caught in that debris c. 4/15 and that when that debris was being cleaned up, the drive worked its way a few feet more out into the river.

Again, that in itself does not prove RFG tossed it, but he easily could have toss it, physically.

 

[Trackergd]

I am going to contact Arrowhead Forensics during the holidays and see if they can suggest something biodegradable that I can use to simulate the laptop and the hard drive, both in size and weight. Unless I am forgetting something, JJ and I are the only ones who have put boots on the ground in the park. It's fine to "assume" a scenario for the sake of discussion, it's quite another to prove out the scenario as true or false with forensic science.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The former poster, Saunterer, and one other that hasn't participated recently, was from the area and was there during the initial searches. I think that, currently, we are only ones that were there. IIRC, you were there at roughly the same type of year that RFG disappeared.

Some of it you can simulate. The drive is simply a question of if someone can throw X amount of weight Y distance. What you need is to know X and Y, know if there will be any major air resistance difference between your test object and the thrown object, and a place that is longer than Y.

 

[minazoe]

so the hardrive was in water? garbage? just in the grass...? for some reason I have always
thought it was in the water.

mOO