PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[J. J. in Phila]

so the hardrive was in water? garbage? just in the grass...? for some reason I have always
thought it was in the water.

mOO

The hard drive was in the water, as was this "debris." The debris was partly submerged. The drive would have been submerged if it went in on 4/15-16/05, but it could be in mixed the submerged debris.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Let me expand a bit on the "debris."

From what I've been told, the debris was largely branches that had washed down there. There was probably some trash that was mixed in, but it was described as mostly being branches.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, it is a new year and will be the 14th anniversary of RFG's disappearance.

I think that there has been some progress over the last 2-3 years, but there is nothing new.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This link is to a quite good podcast about Mel Wiley: 1985: The disappearance of Chief Mel Wiley

There are two things that I took away from it related to RFG:

1. The description of Wiley's personality is similar to that of RFG's personality, to the point where they were using the same words.

2. The public reaction to Wiley's disappearance was very similar to what we've seen in the RFG case.

 

[SeekingJana]

This link is to a quite good podcast about Mel Wiley: 1985: The disappearance of Chief Mel Wiley

There are two things that I took away from it related to RFG:

1. The description of Wiley's personality is similar to that of RFG's personality, to the point where they were using the same words.

2. The public reaction to Wiley's disappearance was very similar to what we've seen in the RFG case.

Hi, and welcome back. I don't have the patience for most podcasts, so sorry.
I have read a lot of intricately written mysteries ( not this piffle light of the last 25 years or so) and you know what my first thought was about Wiley/ Gricar?
" They find Wiley and they'll find Gricar if they're that much alike".

Do you think there's a needle in a haystack chance that Ray ever met and talked to Mel in the Cleveland area? What if Mel was asking specific but not- ordinary legal kinds of questions and Ray figured out what Mel was planning?

Under what condition or conditions do you think Mel would befriend Gricar, and could Gricar ever figure out the destination? If it was a money scheme that doesn't involve fraud but moving assets that we might not have landed on yet, could Gricar have investigated and copied it, probably adding better details, of course?

Last, most down to earth thought ( hee hee) - Could they sound alike with mannerisms and have personality similarities maybe in other quirky areas because they spent years in the same general geographic area?
And probably spent their formative years during the general same time period? I mean, the photo I THINK I saw of Wiley looked like a large bald man. The kind of dude I'd expect to have a serious to fatal heart attack pretty soon as we lacked a lot of medications to treat the by-product diseases of heart disease and didn't have cardiac stents? Was that Wiley?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

No suggestion that they new each other. Wiley was appointed police chief of Hinkley Township in 1982; he was hired as an officer in 1978. Before that, Wiley was a sheriff's deputy in Medina County, apparently since 1966. They are reasonably to Cleveland, but still different jurisdictions.

RFG was in Cuyahoga County from 1970 until he moved to Centre County in 1979. The first year he was at the city prosecutor's office, which, at least today, generally does misdemeanors.

It is very unlikely that the two ever met.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A bit morbid,but LE is searching for the body of a woman tossed into the Susquehanna. It is not on the same branch of the river, but it will give us some idea of recovery time. Search continues in ice-cold Susquehanna River for 24-year-old who was killed, thrown over bridge

 

[SeekingJana]

No suggestion that they new each other. Wiley was appointed police chief of Hinkley Township in 1982; he was hired as an officer in 1978. Before that, Wiley was a sheriff's deputy in Medina County, apparently since 1966. They are reasonably to Cleveland, but still different jurisdictions.

RFG was in Cuyahoga County from 1970 until he moved to Centre County in 1979. The first year he was at the city prosecutor's office, which, at least today, generally does misdemeanors.

It is very unlikely that the two ever met.

I agree based on your great timeline. Thank you for posting the info.
So sad about the victim thrown in the SR.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm posting this to show that there can be a murder conviction in PA without a body: Pa. man gets maximum penalty for death of woman whose body was never found

If there was evidence, a hypothetical murderer of RFG could be prosecuted, even without a body.

 

[Daisy1980]

We do not know for a fact WHEN the drive or laptop was tossed, do we?
Is it possible the drive was tossed first, perhaps on his trip to the lake?

 

[Trackergd]

The only suggestions I have had from experts for test artifacts are over cooked brownies the size and thickness of the drive and laptop. Biodegradable fish food. Not sure what the fish and game wardens would think of that.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

We do not know for a fact WHEN the drive or laptop was tossed, do we?
Is it possible the drive was tossed first, perhaps on his trip to the lake?

The only thing that can be said, absolutely, is that drive was removed prior to the laptop being tossed.

We can also say that at least one witness put RFG in a location where he could, physically, have tossed the drive. That does not prove RFG tossed the drive, but it is indicative.

BTW, it the West Branch of Susquehanna River.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The only suggestions I have had from experts for test artifacts are over cooked brownies the size and thickness of the drive and laptop. Biodegradable fish food. Not sure what the fish and game wardens would think of that.

I doubt if they object to fish food. A rock shouldn't be a problem, so it could be something put inside to add weight.

As I've indicated, it could be simulated.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, I've done it. I've worn out another keyboard on the Gricar case.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

We do not know for a fact WHEN the drive or laptop was tossed, do we?
Is it possible the drive was tossed first, perhaps on his trip to the lake?

Both the laptop and drive had been in the water for a while; I would say at least 30 days. The plastic on the laptop had started to come off.

The laptop was found on 7/30/05; the drive was reportedly found on 9/23/05.

It is not possible to say that that either the drive or the laptop were tossed on the weekend of 4/15/05. However, quite obviously, the drive was removed prior to the laptop being tossed. The latest that the laptop could have been tossed is roughly 6/30/05.

 

[Deleted member 162919]

I've been following this case for a few years but not often enough. I am wondering why RFG would get rid of the laptop and the hard drive and then disappear? I'm going to assume most info on that computer could be pulled up through either his personal ISP or work ISP and the authorities would know exactly whats on there without having the physical laptop in hand. Last I read it was assumed he killed himself and if that's true why bother to destroy evidence if he was doing something illegal?. Maybe something has changed in the last couple of years and I missed something. The last I heard was someone claimed he was buried in some kind of dump I believe it was a person from a biker gang.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I've been following this case for a few years but not often enough. I am wondering why RFG would get rid of the laptop and the hard drive and then disappear? I'm going to assume most info on that computer could be pulled up through either his personal ISP or work ISP and the authorities would know exactly whats on there without having the physical laptop in hand. Last I read it was assumed he killed himself and if that's true why bother to destroy evidence if he was doing something illegal?. Maybe something has changed in the last couple of years and I missed something. The last I heard was someone claimed he was buried in some kind of dump I believe it was a person from a biker gang.

Even communicating with his nephew, who was in tech, it would have been easily possible to have had an email account that would be based on his computer. That said, it is possible that everything on his computer was transferred to the new desktop.

While some in LE have thought it was suicide, there are others who thought he walked away;. The people earlier involved in the investigation (pre-2008)have indicated that they thought it was probably suicide; those who handled it later have indicated that they thought it was walkaway.

Possible motivations, including combinations, for RFG's voluntary departure would be:

1. He could have been hiding funds, especially before his second divorce, in Europe, and it would be easier to live someplace else (another country) an access them.

2. He was worried about the possibility that someone who he prosecuted would come back to harm him or PEF.

3. He didn't want to be "the ex-DA" and have to speak about prior cases. That not necessarily be Sandusky, but it could be about any case handled in a long career.

4. He found the idea of taking off with no ties to be romantic. His version of Route 66.

5. He wanted to show how intellectually superior he was by pulling off the what would be an exceptionally difficult achievement, vanishing without a trace.

6. He realized that his heirs would get a greater inheritance if he would disappear than if he lived for a few years and then died.

These are all potential motivations, but unless someone can find RFG, asks him, and he gives an honest answer, we don't know. Note that some of these, especially 6, could be a motive for suicide.

If suicide, RFG could have had private things that he didn't want seen on his laptop, anything running from personnel reports on staff, to information on his daughter's birth parents, to risque photos. He was known as a private individual.

The Hell's Angel's story has been debunked. For example, RFG didn't prosecute the person who was claimed to have arranged the murder. The person was actually an informant, so it is unlikely that HA would help him. One story placed his body in a nonexistent town.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Somewhat related. SPM's law license was suspended for a year.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Not to be overly ghoulish, there is a thread on Haley Lorenzen, the young woman killed by her boyfriend and dumped in the Susquehanna. Deceased/Not Found - PA - Haley Lorenzen, 24 - Wyoming County - Sunday, 30 Dec 2018 *Arrest*

The search for her didn't start until about 10 days after her disappearance and have been hampered by weather.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I found something I don't think has been seen. It is an article from CNN in 2015: What happened to Ray Gricar? | GantNews.com

There is something in it that I think is disturbing, MOO. It is this line: "Lara declined to comment, and investigators said they’ve had trouble reaching her."

I can understand her not wanting to talk to the press, but not being involved with investigators?