PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[J. J. in Phila]

It is within the acceptable scope of investigation for Local and State LE to request Federal Assistance to bring advanced resources to the table. While PSP has vast resources and an outstanding forensics team, it would seem that this case (given the position RFG held) would meet the litmus test of bringing all available local, State and Federal resources to bear.

When this does not occur (when it should) it has generally turned out to be Ego, Political or someone has something to hide.

There was federal assistance in regard to checking RFG's credit card use, the polygraphs, and some technical support, like trying to recover the data from the hard drive. However, there were not grounds to have federal investigation.

That said, "legacy protection," and ultimately ego, was a strong element in the BPD investigation. Politically, it would have been advantageous to have given the case to the PSP earlier.

 

[bykerladi]

I think most of us agree Ray did not just voluntarily walk away and disappear. I have to wonder though if he had some inkling that something was going to happen to him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think most of us agree Ray did not just voluntarily walk away and disappear. I have to wonder though if he had some inkling that something was going to happen to him.

I do not believe that there is general agreement on that point. That RFG's action was voluntary is far more likely. Even excluding suicide, voluntary action is still more likely than foul play.

 

[bykerladi]

Really? And just leave his daughter behind without a word?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Really? And just leave his daughter behind without a word?

Yes.

1. Financially, LG (and PEF) benefit from RFG not being there to collect a pension. They get more than if RFG retired and then died, even if he died a few days after retirement.

2. There is always the possibility that RFG did communicate with her, or at least got her a message, after the fact. The similarities with the novel 20/2o Vision, could have been intended as an oblique message, for example. I'm confident that she didn't know prior to being polygraphed and I really doubt if there was/is direct communication.

3. This ties in with the first one, but RFG would have had to have realized that, without a body, he would have to be declared dead by the courts. This is something a lawyer would think of first of all; LG has to go to court and swear that she has not heard from him. If she has heard from him and swears that she didn't, she commits perjury; if she gets money based on that, she could be committing fraud.

A non-lawyer might not think of that, but someone who has been practicing law for more thirty years, especially criminal law, would. I don't think RFG would put her in that position (at least I hope he wouldn't).

 

[bykerladi]

Exactly, which is why I can't imagine he'd just walk away. Money isn't that important.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Exactly, which is why I can't imagine he'd just walk away. Money isn't that important.

Maybe to RFG, it is.

About a month after he became DA, RFG started lobbying to have the position become full time. The difference was this salary would nearly double. It was 1986 and he was making $40 K. That is not for an attorney, but his then wife was a tenured professor and they had initially planned to live off her salary, exclusively; she possibly would have been making about $60-75 K. A gross household income of greater than $100 K in 1986 was nothing to sneeze it, especially when benefits are not included; he also did not have to worry about the overhead attorneys in private practice had, office space, insurance, and staff. RFG lobbied for full time status until he finally got it in 1997.

Money was important to him. It is not good politics for an elected official to constantly push for doubling his salary; it was an issue in the 1993 campaign.

Money has one constant in looking at RFG. This where a lot of questions get raised.

 

[Trackergd]

Exactly, which is why I can't imagine he'd just walk away. Money isn't that important.

There has been no obvious motive for homicide so far. No case has been offered that warrants a deeper dive to determine if the actor or family wanted revenge.

I purchased and shared copies of his finances at the time he was declared deceased. He had far less money than he should have given his salary. A quick forensic accounting look I had done characterized the documents as "curious". None of his hobbies or known expenditures explain the lack of funds. Lots of speculation but nothing firm at this point.

Suicide is very unlikely as there was a search including a K9 that indicated that RFG left the parking lot in another vehicle. No body has been recovered either on land or in the river. Decomposition gasses would have caused the body to surface and be discovered by fishermen or get hung up in one of the dams. I would suspect that if something was bothering RFG that badly, PF would have known about it. IF it was RFG that was seen at the SOS, walking around and chatting to the mystery woman is not generally the MO of someone about to commit suicide.

If there had been even a "hint" of homicide, PSP would have been all over it and we would have seen the activity. Too many eyes and boots on the ground to go unnoticed.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped

Suicide is very unlikely as there was a search including a K9 that indicated that RFG left the parking lot in another vehicle.

I'm going to disagree slightly. The bloodhound could not follow the scent outside of the parking lot; the dog circled at the end point. The dog handler thought that it could indicate RFG got into another car; that is a possibility, and perhaps the best possibility, but it isn't definite. If another vehicle was involved, that would almost completely eliminate suicide as a possibility.

 

[Trackergd]

Respectfully snipped

I'm going to disagree slightly. The bloodhound could not follow the scent outside of the parking lot; the dog circled at the end point. The dog handler thought that it could indicate RFG got into another car; that is a possibility, and perhaps the best possibility, but it isn't definite. If another vehicle was involved, that would almost completely eliminate suicide as a possibility.

Understood. Having worked with tracking dog teams, both ground scent and air scent, the most probable scenarios by the dogs actions and signals would be 1) Left in another vehicle, 2) Sealed up in a air tight bag and removed from the area and 3) Lifted vertically up in the air by some method and then transported in a manner that did not leave dead skin cells for the dog to hit on. Any other scenario would have left a detectable trail with one exception, that the actor or actors had gone to great pains to eliminate any scent evidence, and that in itself would have left visually obvious clues. Same scenario in the driveway where Jacob Wetterling was abducted. Prints ended and scent ended. Confirmed by the abductor to have left in a vehicle.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Understood. Having worked with tracking dog teams, both ground scent and air scent, the most probable scenarios by the dogs actions and signals would be 1) Left in another vehicle, 2) Sealed up in a air tight bag and removed from the area and 3) Lifted vertically up in the air by some method and then transported in a manner that did not leave dead skin cells for the dog to hit on. Any other scenario would have left a detectable trail with one exception, that the actor or actors had gone to great pains to eliminate any scent evidence, and that in itself would have left visually obvious clues. Same scenario in the driveway where Jacob Wetterling was abducted. Prints ended and scent ended. Confirmed by the abductor to have left in a vehicle.

One of the things that would be looking at would be if the scent could have been masked/destroyed either by natural processes, e.g. sunlight, or by some man-made act, e.g. exhaust. You have a great deal of experience with tracking; is that a possibility and, if so, how likely?

 

[Trackergd]

One of the things that would be looking at would be if the scent could have been masked/destroyed either by natural processes, e.g. sunlight, or by some man-made act, e.g. exhaust. You have a great deal of experience with tracking; is that a possibility and, if so, how likely?

Heat from direct sunlight causes the scent to rise up in the air a bit, when it is cold, it lays close to the ground. Masking a scent is a bit more difficult. The only mask I have had success with is Fox urine. If something like that had been used, everyone within a city block would have known. Exhaust is only an issue when directly next to an active highway. When I was near the SOS, I think I counted about five cars pass the parking lot in the entire time I was there.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Heat from direct sunlight causes the scent to rise up in the air a bit, when it is cold, it lays close to the ground. Masking a scent is a bit more difficult. The only mask I have had success with is Fox urine. If something like that had been used, everyone within a city block would have known. Exhaust is only an issue when directly next to an active highway. When I was near the SOS, I think I counted about five cars pass the parking lot in the entire time I was there.

It broke 70 on 4/16/05, though it was cold overnight. The bloodhound was brought in on 4/17, and it was the high 60's to low 70's when the dog arrived.

I'm thinking more of cars stopping and starting up. For example, before I turn off my engine, I put the car in park, put on the emergency break, roll up the windows, then turn off my engine. When starting, I turn on the engine, lower the windows, put on my safety belt, take the parking break off, and put the car into gear. That might only be about 60 seconds but it is 60 seconds at the same point.

When I was there, on a Friday in July, there was a bit more traffic, though not a huge amount.

 

[Trackergd]

The handler would have known. Bloodhounds tend to whimper and carry on if they lose the scent. You would need a lot of vehicles running and no wind to create enough exhaust fumes to throw the dog off scent. I have worked with a number of Bloodhounds over they years.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The handler would have known. Bloodhounds tend to whimper and carry on if they lose the scent. You would need a lot of vehicles running and no wind to create enough exhaust fumes to throw the dog off scent. I have worked with a number of Bloodhounds over they years.

The handler didn't sound sure, in the second hand reports. Any chance we could find him and ask him?

RFG definitely getting into a vehicle would probably lower the chances on suicide.

 

[Trackergd]

I have reached out to the K9 SAR team located in State College to see if they know who the handler was.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have reached out to the K9 SAR team located in State College to see if they know who the handler was.

Thank you.

If it was a car, suicide would be almost completely off the table.

 

[Trackergd]

If it was a car, suicide would be almost completely off the table.

It would also tangentially support the sighting back in Bellafonte, or at least move it up on the credibility list.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It would also tangentially support the sighting back in Bellafonte, or at least move it up on the credibility list.

It would show another car involved.

 

[minazoe]

another car involved is a 100 percent game changer.

suicide is such a bizarre thing, I only think it's understandable in the event of horrible terminal illness...the idea that you just walk off and kill yourself..I never can wrap my head around it..and I have known people...

deep grief driving you to madness I suppose..no relief ...I guess..but still to just drive off one
sunny day and throw yourself into a river...shoot yourself, hang yourself...
leave your child..I never will get it.