PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #4

[christine2448]

thanks for this report louisa and i agree with you....poor poor explanation. mr. izzyB and i have applied for about 10 house, car, business loans over the lifetime of our 30 year marriage and yet if he went missing today i can promise you that no one would be looking for him under my maiden name. :snooty: ...or his mother's maiden name, or my mother's, etc.

IMHO only, this is a lame excuse for more going on behind the scenes than LE is willing to divulge to the public....could we once again use the phrase cover-up?

Yep, makes no sense to me either. But was interesting to find out where the names came from, if that's even the truth!

 

[Louisa]

Agreed IzzyB! I can't think of any reason my husband would use my maiden name, or even be "linked" to it. What do you think Louisa21?

You l'il razzer, Chickie. Check your email for an explanation of why I'm not registered here by the name you usually know me as! Too much confusion, otherwise!

Anyway, back to the other folks. Let me admit here that before I found Bosak's 5/11 response, I Q&A'd him about the names, and he answered in today's CDT.

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html

A It has been answered before, but no problem. Ray has aliases listed on his official FBI missing poster. But these are easily explained. In credit reports, his name somehow became tied to the maiden names of his two former wives. This was more of an error by credit bureaus that anything. Ray never used an alias.
Pete Bosak 6/01/06

I appreciate Bosak's response. However, I don't find this "easily explained," and I still believe the FBI has not been careless in its wording or content on the flyer. Local LE may say that RG never used an alias, but the FBI has some reason for choosing to put that particular item on the flyer, and I am not at this point content with thinking it has to do with some paperwork snafu over credit lending issues.

I emailed Bosak privately with these thoughts but haven't received a response to that email and don't really expect I'll hear from him. Sigh.

Just my two cents.

 

[lymom3]

How long has he been divorced from the 2 ex wives? Credit doesn't stay on your file forever. I work in an industry where I use credit bureaus every day. Names, social security numbers and addresses can easily get cross referenced. I see it all the time. However, even if that was an issue at some point, I have a hard time swallowing that it still could be years later.

 

[Bobbisangel]

I just wonder if Ray didn't fear for his life and he didn't get the support that he thought he would from the FBI or whoever handles the Witness Protection Program. Maybe he decided on his own to disappear to protect himself. Maybe the lady at the shops was helping him along with the man who came to the car window on her side of his car. I also think that he may have had someone throw his laptop in the river but took the hard drive to copy it into a new computer and then the same person may have held on to it after he was done with it and threw it in the river at a later time.

If he is in a Witness Protection Program they would give him a name and ID that no one would ever connect with him. It wouldn't be his ex's maiden names....that is for sure. Maybe the FBI added those names just to throw people off. If he is in a Witness Protection Program the FBI would have no choice but to go along with an investigation because they wouldn't be able to tell LE or anyone else where Ray really is if his life is in danger. They would just do a half azz job of it.

 

[izzyB]

well bobbi, the theory you advance is certainly credible and would explain a lot about what appears to be an incomplete investigation by LE.

i am not sure whether or not family is informed when someone enters the witness protection program. and once you are in the witness protection program, what do you owe the government? do you owe them testimony in later court cases, with the protected being in disguise. or does someone enter the program b/c "they know too much" but never owe any testimony to the feds who are spending a bundle to house, feed, protect the witness. is the threat of death from drug kingpins enough to get a DA in the witness protection program? it would seem that kind of thing kind of came with the territory.

 

[TallCoolOne]

Well, this isn't exactly the same thing but very close and just had to say this. A year ago my husband and I were struggling financially in a bad way and we almost lost our home in foreclosure. The legal paperwork issued during this time was sent out using all the known names I have ever gone under (maiden name, name from first marriage, name from current marriage and also with the last name of an ex-boyfriend from 12 years ago to whom I was never married and there would have been no reason what so ever for my last name to be associated with him. It does happen. I was pretty shocked actually to see my name associated with his. It should never have been, but yet here it was in black and white. For no reason I can figure.

So yes, it is possible. Goofy things can happen with credit bureau reporting.

 

[Louisa]

How long has he been divorced from the 2 ex wives? Credit doesn't stay on your file forever. I work in an industry where I use credit bureaus every day. Names, social security numbers and addresses can easily get cross referenced. I see it all the time. However, even if that was an issue at some point, I have a hard time swallowing that it still could be years later.

lymom3, I dug around to try to find out how long ago the divorces were. As far as I can tell, the first marriage ended in the early '90's and the second marriage in early 2001. Since you're in an industry where you might know something about this, do you think 4 years (2001-2005) would be sufficient time to have the second ex-wife's name "unlinked" from his? How about 14 years more or less for the first wife's?

 

[izzyB]

i think this new phychic show on CTV has been mentioned on this thread as one of their up-coming shows will deal with ray.

yesterday on CC (i was watching as she is on verdict-watch in the susan polk case) she talked about this new show with the psychics. at the end of their segment, CC asked one of them about the ray gricar case, as CC saiid she was very interested in the case (for obvious reasons, she was an ADA here in dallas before becoming a judge).

anyway, and this is the point, the female psychic answers did not much make sense to me. she used some adjective to describe her intense feelings when she was i guess at the river....and for the life of me i cannot remember it as by this time i had wandered in the other room and about tripped over myself getting back in front of the TV when i heard the name "gricar". but what i did get was her saying "it is a dangerous place to live" for the people who live there.(?) CC made no follow-up comment to that remark.

so i guess we will have to keep a look-out to see exactly when this show profile's gricar.

 

[Louisa]

i think this new phychic show on CTV has been mentioned on this thread as one of their up-coming shows will deal with ray.

yesterday on CC (i was watching as she is on verdict-watch in the susan polk case) she talked about this new show with the psychics. at the end of their segment, CC asked one of them about the ray gricar case, as CC saiid she was very interested in the case (for obvious reasons, she was an ADA here in dallas before becoming a judge).

anyway, and this is the point, the female psychic answers did not much make sense to me. she used some adjective to describe her intense feelings when she was i guess at the river....and for the life of me i cannot remember it as by this time i had wandered in the other room and about tripped over myself getting back in front of the TV when i heard the name "gricar". but what i did get was her saying "it is a dangerous place to live" for the people who live there.(?) CC made no follow-up comment to that remark.

so i guess we will have to keep a look-out to see exactly when this show profile's gricar.

Hi Izzy,

I believe the "Haunting Evidence" Court TV segment on Ray with psychic Carla Baron is scheduled to run on June 21st at 10:30 p.m.

Now if I were a good little poster, I should probably leave my comment at that, but I feel as if I need to go a step further. Will try to be "fair and balanced" as I'm able to be.

Let me preface this by saying I'm really open to psychic phenomena and a big believer in some psychics. John Edward is one example of someone I really trust. I know that psychics have aided LE in many, many cases.

That said, opinions of CB even among believers are quite divided. There's quite a contingent of CB fans. There are also many pro-psychic people who have some genuine reservations about CB and questions about her motives. I won't go further.

Just wanted to put that out there so that people might do their own investigating before watching Haunting Evidence if they so desire.

 

[MaGruff31]

This is my first post and I am thrilled to be a part of this amazing website. I have become addicted to this site since the Laci Peterson case and finally deciced to post. I think you all offer so many interesting points of view. I also didnt realize just how many people are missing with so few answers. It breaks my heart everyday but somehow I feel what you all do here truly makes a difference. Also you just never know what can happen.

In regards to the Ray Gricar case, I have felt that he is alive from the beginning. The reason is that he went for a drive that day and if it was a crime from a drug related case how ould they know where he would be that day, so far from the courthouse and his home. I think they would have been following him and he would have suspected something since it is a small antique store he was in. It just doesnt add up to me for some reason. It almost looked to staged.

 

[christine2448]

This is my first post and I am thrilled to be a part of this amazing website. I have become addicted to this site since the Laci Peterson case and finally deciced to post. I think you all offer so many interesting points of view. I also didnt realize just how many people are missing with so few answers. It breaks my heart everyday but somehow I feel what you all do here truly makes a difference. Also you just never know what can happen.

In regards to the Ray Gricar case, I have felt that he is alive from the beginning. The reason is that he went for a drive that day and if it was a crime from a drug related case how ould they know where he would be that day, so far from the courthouse and his home. I think they would have been following him and he would have suspected something since it is a small antique store he was in. It just doesnt add up to me for some reason. It almost looked to staged.

Hiya MaGruff31....welcome to posting at WS!!!! Thanks for your input.

What you say about the drive, I think he went to meet someone, maybe was threatened to meet up with someone, in relation to the drug case he was getting ready to prosecute, or maybe they threatened his gf, coworkers, or family if he didn't meet with them? The ciggy ashes, the construction type worker and the mysterious woman...either were involved in kidnapping/killing him, or with his getaway to start a new life......again, I think if he started a new life, it has to do with this case, I just can't shake that.....maybe he had to disappear?

Ohhhh, so many scenarios, I just wish we could find him. Dead or Alive, his poor family needs answers...unless they really know what's going on?

I am not local to this anymore, and am not sure what kinda fuss they, the family, are putting up...I know Tony was mentioned a few times in articles recently...saying he wants more done, investigation shabby, was it shabby on purpose, does LE know why he disappeared......things started heating up for a few days....new team coming in to investigate....all false? They know where he really is, he had to assume new identity?

Sorry, ya'll, just talking to myself here really....thinking. I started out by saying "I think this"...then went to that and this and that....who knows?

Where are you RAY?????

 

[tennessee]

Just my personal opinion but think that he is in the WPP. I think that the lady in the antique store might have been providing him with details he needed for his new life. Same with the construction worker.

 

[christine2448]

Hey ya'll...I started a thread for everyone to post what they think happened to Ray...you can see it here:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40396

 

[Louisa]

Just my personal opinion but think that he is in the WPP. I think that the lady in the antique store might have been providing him with details he needed for his new life. Same with the construction worker.

Just my humble opinion, but I think the best argument against the Witness Protection Program is the huge expenditure of man hours and money that's been put into searching for Ray. I've read some about WPP and saw a great documentary on TLC or Discovery Channel, and it seems as if there are ways the program has to avoid such huge expenditures, such as making it look as if the person has been killed or as if he/she committed suicide.

Who knows? Could be. But I put that one way down my list. My opinion only, of course.

 

[luthersmama]

Just my personal opinion but think that he is in the WPP. I think that the lady in the antique store might have been providing him with details he needed for his new life. Same with the construction worker.

But what would he have been a witness to? For him to need to go underground, it would have to be something other than the kind of routine cases he prosecuted. Prosecutors are always in danger - it is part of the job. They don't go into protection because of ordinary cases or even big drug cases. He would have to be a witness to some kind of big corruption case involving the law enforcement community or county government or something.

I have heard nothing whatsoever about any such case pending in that area. What could he possibly know? That the county commissioners are stealing money? That the sheriff is crooked? There is no whiff of anything like that.

 

[christine2448]

He would have to be a witness to some kind of big corruption case involving the law enforcement community or county government or something.

I have heard nothing whatsoever about any such case pending in that area. What could he possibly know? That the county commissioners are stealing money? That the sheriff is crooked? There is no whiff of anything like that.

In earlier posts, somewhere on this forum, I posted pertaining to investigations done by yardbird.com you can see all the corruption that is going on in the areas govt etc. Here is the link, interesting reading IMO. about Jonathan Luna and Ray Gricar http://www.yardbird.com/luna.htm

 

[luthersmama]

In earlier posts, somewhere on this forum, I posted pertaining to investigations done by yardbird.com you can see all the corruption that is going on in the areas govt etc. Here is the link, interesting reading IMO. about Jonathan Luna and Ray Gricar http://www.yardbird.com/luna.htm

That site seems to insist there is some connection between Luna and Gricar, but doesn't reall tell me anything about why Gricar might have gone into the Witness protection program.

Luna was a federal prosecutor in Baltimore. Gricar a county prosecutor in PA. They didn't work in the same court systems at all. They were hundreds of miles apart.

I still don't have any clue as to why Gricar would need protection from the witness protection program.

 

[christine2448]

That site seems to insist there is some connection between Luna and Gricar, but doesn't reall tell me anything about why Gricar might have gone into the Witness protection program.

Luna was a federal prosecutor in Baltimore. Gricar a county prosecutor in PA. They didn't work in the same court systems at all. They were hundreds of miles apart.

I still don't have any clue as to why Gricar would need protection from the witness protection program.

Hiya Luthersmama, thanks for the post.....

I don't have time to research right now, but here is one of the connections of the 2 cases:



Luna had mysteriously vanished from his desk in the federal courthouse in Baltimore, Maryland, the night before. AUSA Luna had been working late on a troubled plea agreement involving violent, inter-state drug trafficking.

Some sixteen months later, on April 17, 2005, Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar vanished without a trace under equally mysterious circumstances outside of Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. Shortly before his death, DA Gricar had announced the biggest inter-state drug investigation in the history of his county.

 

[luthersmama]

Hiya Luthersmama, thanks for the post.....

I don't have time to research right now, but here is one of the connections of the 2 cases:



Luna had mysteriously vanished from his desk in the federal courthouse in Baltimore, Maryland, the night before. AUSA Luna had been working late on a troubled plea agreement involving violent, inter-state drug trafficking.

Some sixteen months later, on April 17, 2005, Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar vanished without a trace under equally mysterious circumstances outside of Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. Shortly before his death, DA Gricar had announced the biggest inter-state drug investigation in the history of his county.

Right. I understand the parallels in the two guys' lives, but I don't believe there is a connection.

Either way, though, prosecutors don't go into witness protection programs unless they are witnesses to something. Gricar prosecuted lots of drug cases. Most prosecutors do. That does not lead to a need to go hide out from everybody. The risk of death threats and the like is normal in that job.

Let's say there was a big city official bribery case or something and Ray was in the capacity of a witness. Then maybe there would be a reason to go into hiding. But there is NOTHING. Just his routine drug stuff. Nothing about police corruption, nothing about missing money, politics, mafia...NOTHING.

Prosecutors don't go into hiding because of cases they are prosecuting.

I just can't buy into the witness protection program theory without some evidence that he was a witness to something big.

 

[tennessee]

It might be hard to find evidence he was witness to something big. We wouldn't be privy to that kind of information.

I once knew a person who went into the witness protection program. This man disappeared in the middle of the night and has not been heard from since. He was single but he did have to end communication with friends and family. He was in a position similar to Gricar's. I only know because I was in a long term relationship with someone who was part of the investigation.

Until we have something concrete, any idea is plausible. We can't prove he is alive or dead.