PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

[JackAMW]

IF Sandusky is allowed to plea out a deal, then I think one of the provisions should be that he take AND PASS a polygraph regarding Ray Gricar and his disappearance. Otherwise, the deal's off the table and he's incarcerated. The sick old freak will decide to talk.:furious:

I believe there is a good possibility of a connection between what is still unfolding with Sandusky, his next door neighbor the PSU police chief and Ray Gricar's inveatigation into Sandusky. However, the variables are so great that I choose not to speculate on what or why.

My first thoughts with only looking at a few posts and knowing nothing of the case but being asked to look at it by you is that Ray was set up by smoking woman, she will be taller, classy, well dressed, longer hair pulled back, possible law or real estate type. Laptop taken apart or HD replaced or planted in water. Vehicle will be across road from red antiques building in old building that sits very close to road. Clearing in group of trees close to water, marks where laptop was found. He likely was set up and hit using woman as decoy. Taken elsewhere and killed, professional. Body not able to be found. Check his organized cases or debts he owed

 

[J. J. in Phila]

My first thoughts with only looking at a few posts and knowing nothing of the case but being asked to look at it by you is that Ray was set up by smoking woman, she will be taller, classy, well dressed, longer hair pulled back, possible law or real estate type. Laptop taken apart or HD replaced or planted in water. Vehicle will be across road from red antiques building in old building that sits very close to road. Clearing in group of trees close to water, marks where laptop was found. He likely was set up and hit using woman as decoy. Taken elsewhere and killed, professional. Body not able to be found. Check his organized cases or debts he owed

No debt, and a bit over $100 K in the bank; a bit low, considering that he grossed more than $100 K per year for the 5 years prior to his disappearance.

Do description of how the Lewisburg Mystery Woman (LMW) was dressed.

Bloodhound found his scent in the parking lot, and no place else.

 

[SeekingJana]

My first thoughts with only looking at a few posts and knowing nothing of the case but being asked to look at it by you is that Ray was set up by smoking woman, she will be taller, classy, well dressed, longer hair pulled back, possible law or real estate type. Laptop taken apart or HD replaced or planted in water. Vehicle will be across road from red antiques building in old building that sits very close to road. Clearing in group of trees close to water, marks where laptop was found. He likely was set up and hit using woman as decoy. Taken elsewhere and killed, professional. Body not able to be found. Check his organized cases or debts he owed

Jack, please stay with us on this. We need fresh eyes. You did wonders with the OK girls' murders!!
Yes, there is a possibility that the woman possibly seen with him was a set up. Yes, it is possible that this has a LE inside job angle to it.

Yes, HD found may fit but does not necessarily belong to his laptop. His laptop case can be ID'd because of the serial number on file with the Centre County IT people. The HD found has no serial number- but is said " to fit" into the computer. Kroll ( a hard drive recovery service) was unable to retrieve ANY data off the hard drive-- they were able to retrieve data from the Columbia space shuttle drive after it had burned up. ( Over my house I might add).

What is your idea for the motive for a pro hit? ( I know motive doesn't have to be proven, but we need to work backwards to suspects).

Under what circumstances do you think a very experienced DA would get into someone else's car? How well would he have to KNOW the person to voluntarily go off with them?

Body not able to be found because ??? Do you have a specific place in mind which should be searched now for remains? The Susquehanna River banks flood.. Lots and lots of fast- moving flood water in the area. Many large wild animals in the area too. Are any bones recoverable now if someone searches in the right place?

We are told that the FBI did a forensic audit of his finances and he owned no one. He had a substantial amount of cash in the bank ( amount stated as over $100,000) and again, he had paid off his girlfriend's home and bought the Mini Cooper without any need for a payment plan. It was titled to his live in girlfriend, Patty Fornicola.

So, you do believe he was in Lewisburg, and the mystery woman was the lure to his death? Not walkaway, not a strong- armed murder ( he was most likely unarmed)?

What do you think about the fact that his cell phone, which he is said to always keep with him, was found in his glove box, and the cell phone was turned off and the glove box was locked?
Also, the keys to the Mini Cooper have never been found.

 

[SeekingJana]

What's the payoff for the mystery woman?
If she was the lure, was she a cold blooded sociopath? I'd think so, wouldn't you?
What was in it for her PERSONALLY then?
Normal people don't lure good men to their deaths.

What about the fact that NO forensics were obtained from the car other than the questionable cigarette ash?

We are told that Ray Gricar asked almost a year before then " How to erase his hard drive" on the laptop. Forensic team found Google searches on his home PC on how to destroy a HD in water, how to fry a PC HD.
An erasing program box without the program disk was said to be in the house ( his girlfriend told this).

Was the laptop hard drive important to the killer? If so, what is your theory on " why"?
We have wondered if it was important that Ray erase it for reasons we don't yet know for sure beyond " There may have been personal credit info on it or info related to his work".

Thank you so much!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Jack, please stay with us on this. We need fresh eyes. You did wonders with the OK girls' murders!!
Yes, there is a possibility that the woman possibly seen with him was a set up. Yes, it is possible that this has a LE inside job angle to it.

Agreed! We have had a productive several days. Anything helps.

 

[JackAMW]

Picked up in someones car, taken away. Phone taken away at gunpoint, turned off and put in glove box because he was getting a call or he was trying to call 911
Woman left from car when two men, one driving, one with gun, possible third man for muscle, took him for a ride.

Most likely chopped up and chummed or burned to get rid of completely as someone in his position has to disappear forever with no chance of being found. He did not go willing but was forced, likely at gunpoint
Water is good for getting rid of prints but gives up the dead, in this case his whole body has to go, this means the illusion of still being alive works for the guilty, classic Organized Crime move

Being a lawyer, he thought he could talk his way out, wrong! The woman is the key

 

[SeekingJana]

Agreed! We have had a productive several days. Anything helps.

Jack's quite a bit more than " anything", JJ. He provided the breaking leads for the two Waleetka girls' shooting deaths. Case just broke on 12/ 9 with arrest of a suspect by the last name of Sweat.

Jack knows his stuff. This case desperately needs a push. He can do it if we let him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Picked up in someones car, taken away. Phone taken away at gunpoint, turned off and put in glove box because he was getting a call or he was trying to call 911
Woman left from car when two men, one driving, one with gun, possible third man for muscle, took him for a ride.

How did they get him there. (Phone was not in the glove box.) Why does it seem that he shut the phone off before he got to Lewisburg.

The area was populated, with houses abutting the lot. Why didn't he run, or scream?

 

[SeekingJana]

Picked up in someones car, taken away. Phone taken away at gunpoint, turned off and put in glove box because he was getting a call or he was trying to call 911
Woman left from car when two men, one driving, one with gun, possible third man for muscle, took him for a ride.

Most likely chopped up and chummed or burned to get rid of completely as someone in his position has to disappear forever with no chance of being found. He did not go willing but was forced, likely at gunpoint
Water is good for getting rid of prints but gives up the dead, in this case his whole body has to go, this means the illusion of still being alive works for the guilty, classic Organized Crime move

Being a lawyer, he thought he could talk his way out, wrong! The woman is the key

You have stuck to Occam's Razor . It all fits, it's simple, neat, and YES, I totally believe that the woman is the weak link. The accomplice in the car might also be a weaker link..

The things I don't understand is why he would not run away or get help? This is believed to have happened in broad daylight in a fairly busy area. Ray is beleived to have been seen in the Street Of Shops with a woman. So they have had witnesses to at least part of the crime.
Is she protected by LE? If so, then we have no hope. I hope so much this all leads back to Sandusky, and answers will be found.
Honestly, I think the solution will have to be given to LE on a silver platter. They are not looking for his remains. Not one single male UID has been ruled out as being Ray Gricar.

This was not a nebbish of a man. He was a wonderful prosecutor. A revered man in his professional life, a beloved father.
How can we find clues and take info forward?

 

[JackAMW]

What's the payoff for the mystery woman?
If she was the lure, was she a cold blooded sociopath? I'd think so, wouldn't you?
What was in it for her PERSONALLY then?
Normal people don't lure good men to their deaths.

What about the fact that NO forensics were obtained from the car other than the questionable cigarette ash?

We are told that Ray Gricar asked almost a year before then " How to erase his hard drive" on the laptop. Forensic team found Google searches on his home PC on how to destroy a HD in water, how to fry a PC HD.
An erasing program box without the program disk was said to be in the house ( his girlfriend told this).

Was the laptop hard drive important to the killer? If so, what is your theory on " why"?
We have wondered if it was important that Ray erase it for reasons we don't yet know for sure beyond " There may have been personal credit info on it or info related to his work".

Thank you so much!

Likely he was trying to erase or destroy evidence that others wanted or were wanting to destroy themselves. This would be some kind of multimillion/billion dollar deal, either showing his collusion with guilty or his needing to eliminate evidence because of threats to himself or his family. If his brother is dead, it will be likely connected to this case even though the brother had "issues" why did he have those? What cause him to take his own life, did he know more? What were the brother's dealing, did the two brothers have any kind of deal together or some thing of the sort.

So now we have two to look at the mystery woman and the brother

 

[JackAMW]

How did they get him there. (Phone was not in the glove box.) Why does it seem that he shut the phone off before he got to Lewisburg.

The area was populated, with houses abutting the lot. Why didn't he run, or scream?

Yes, that is a good question, means that he was with someone or they had him under their control before.
He knew the guy with the gun is why he did not scream or run

 

[SeekingJana]

Likely he was trying to erase or destroy evidence that others wanted or were wanting to destroy themselves. This would be some kind of multimillion/billion dollar deal, either showing his collusion with guilty or his needing to eliminate evidence because of threats to himself or his family. If his brother is dead, it will be likely connected to this case even though the brother had "issues" why did he have those? What cause him to take his own life, did he know more? What were the brother's dealing, did the two brothers have any kind of deal together or some thing of the sort.

So now we have two to look at the mystery woman and the brother

His brother, Roy, was not in LE. He lived in their home state of Ohio. Some of the family, including Ray, have questioned whether brother Roy's drowning was a suicide.
But-- it was 9 years before Ray's disappearance.
IF Ray had thought his brother was murdered, wouldn't he have moved heaven and earth to have proved it? I don't have to ask-- I know he would have.

There is nothing that I know of that Roy, the brother, was involved in which would be " dangerous" in any way.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Likely he was trying to erase or destroy evidence that others wanted or were wanting to destroy themselves. This would be some kind of multimillion/billion dollar deal, either showing his collusion with guilty or his needing to eliminate evidence because of threats to himself or his family. If his brother is dead, it will be likely connected to this case even though the brother had "issues" why did he have those? What cause him to take his own life, did he know more? What were the brother's dealing, did the two brothers have any kind of deal together or some thing of the sort.

So now we have two to look at the mystery woman and the brother

The brother, Roy, had a long history of depression.

Why would RFG only have that evidence on his laptop? How would others know that RFG didn't copy that information?

 

[JackAMW]

The brother, Roy, had a long history of depression.

Why would RFG only have that evidence on his laptop? How would others know that RFG didn't copy that information?

Yes, interesting

 

[JackAMW]

His brother, Roy, was not in LE. He lived in their home state of Ohio. Some of the family, including Ray, have questioned whether brother Roy's drowning was a suicide.
But-- it was 9 years before Ray's disappearance.
IF Ray had thought his brother was murdered, wouldn't he have moved heaven and earth to have proved it? I don't have to ask-- I know he would have.

There is nothing that I know of that Roy, the brother, was involved in which would be " dangerous" in any way.

Perhaps he did move Heaven and Hell and it got him killed

 

[ThoughtFox]

Hi. I'm new here, but have looked through this thread with much fascination. I'm impressed with the mix of curiosity and intelligence displayed here. By way of disclosure, I'm a Penn State graduate ('90), who was in State College when Mr. Gricar was in office. While I was out of that part of the state when he disappeared, I was aware of the story, and some of my old roommates and I would mention it from time to time. When the whole terrible story about Jerry Sandusky broke with the Grand Jury report, I (only half-jokingly) sent them an e-mail entitled "Now we know what happened to Ray Gricar." While I don't know if the mystery behind his disappearance will ever be solved, I hope to actively follow your thoughts and observations. I don't know if I will be able to "bring anything to the table," but if I can, I will be grateful to share it here. I also saw the "Dateline" commercial earlier tonight. Perhaps the Sandusky case will bring further attention to Mr. Gricar's disappearance.

Welcome, quixote! :seeya: That's the perfect screen name for Websleuths!

I'm not from Ohio and had never heard of Ray Gricar before I saw his story on ID Discovery's "Disappeared." My husband and I were both intrigued by the story, but it sounded as if it would never be solved.

Then after the Sandusky scandal started, I read here on the forum that Ray Gricar was involved in the original Grand Jury and my jaw dropped to the floor.

I know people more familiar with the case might say it's not connected - and that's what they said a few weeks ago when the connection came to light. That a child sex-abuse case wasn't as big a deal as some of the drug cases Gricar was working on, and those had scary people who might have killed him.

But now we know this sex abuse scandal really was a big deal, and has wide-ranging connections to people in high places in the state, as well as people who were making million-dollar business and land deals with Penn State - including Paterno! We've discussed that alot on the Sandusky thread and those guys didn't want anyone to know about Sandusky, not so much for the university, but because they didn't want to lose money on their sweet deals.

I don't believe much in coincidences, especially when we see the extent of the present cover-up. Judges having to recuse themselves because of Second Mile; High School principals trying to get mothers not to call 911 to report Sandusky; his best friend and neighbor was the one who investigated a victim!!! The list goes on and on.

I also don't put much stock in Occam's Razor either because the simplest thing is to say that Ray Gricar was just like his brother and jumped off a bridge (but why?) or that he ran away (without his car and lots of money left in the bank?) or that his disappearance was about a drug case because who would ever think that someone well-respected and "nice" like Jerry Sandusky would want to make a DA disappear? Ahem - alot of people might be thinking that now, actually. So many people had so much to lose - careers, money, prestige. Anyone connected to Sandusky or the scandal might have contacted Gricar to meet with them that day. :twocents:

 

[SeekingJana]

Perhaps he did move Heaven and Hell and it got him killed

The missing DA, Ray Gricar, has at least 2 nephews, possibly more, in Ohio. The ones we have seen on TV and in photos from pressers are Chris, who never speaks out, and Tony, who never really is quiet. They are the sons of the deceased brother, Roy.
It is said that there is a third " skater" type relative of Ray's as well. I know little to nothing about this person.
All I know about Chris and Tony are that they have appeared as " family spokespersons" and that neither has ever taken a pol;ygraph, although Ray's girlfriend, and his daughter, who was on the West coast at the time of his disappearance did take and are said to have passed polys.

Do you have any feeling as to whether his nephews are involved? Tony Gricar has been on almost EVERY cxrime forum which has ever existed posting under MANY different names and nicknames. He is said by Karen Arnold to have attenpted to perhaps " mislead" the Internet posters...

These are benign statements known to be true of their behavior as observed in the area of media segments, etc.
I have no personal agenda, IOW.

 

[JackAMW]

The missing DA, Ray Gricar, has at least 2 nephews, possibly more, in Ohio. The ones we have seen on TV and in photos from pressers are Chris, who never speaks out, and Tony, who never really is quiet. They are the sons of the deceased brother, Roy.
It is said that there is a third " skater" type relative of Ray's as well. I know little to nothing about this person.
All I know about Chris and Tony are that they have appeared as " family spokespersons" and that neither has ever taken a pol;ygraph, although Ray's girlfriend, and his daughter, who was on the West coast at the time of his disappearance did take and are said to have passed polys.

Do you have any feeling as to whether his nephews are involved? Tony Gricar has been on almost EVERY cxrime forum which has ever existed posting under MANY different names and nicknames. He is said by Karen Arnold to have attenpted to perhaps " mislead" the Internet posters...

These are benign statements known to be true of their behavior as observed in the area of media segments, etc.
I have no personal agenda, IOW.

I have strong feeling that they are around

 

[SeekingJana]

Welcome, quixote! :seeya: That's the perfect screen name for Websleuths!

I'm not from Ohio and had never heard of Ray Gricar before I saw his story on ID Discovery's "Disappeared." My husband and I were both intrigued by the story, but it sounded as if it would never be solved.

Then after the Sandusky scandal started, I read here on the forum that Ray Gricar was involved in the original Grand Jury and my jaw dropped to the floor.

I know people more familiar with the case might say it's not connected - and that's what they said a few weeks ago when the connection came to light. That a child sex-abuse case wasn't as big a deal as some of the drug cases Gricar was working on, and those had scary people who might have killed him.

But now we know this sex abuse scandal really was a big deal, and has wide-ranging connections to people in high places in the state, as well as people who were making million-dollar business and land deals with Penn State - including Paterno! We've discussed that alot on the Sandusky thread and those guys didn't want anyone to know about Sandusky, not so much for the university, but because they didn't want to lose money on their sweet deals.

I don't believe much in coincidences, especially when we see the extent of the present cover-up. Judges having to recuse themselves because of Second Mile; High School principals trying to get mothers not to call 911 to report Sandusky; his best friend and neighbor was the one who investigated a victim!!! The list goes on and on.

I also don't put much stock in Occam's Razor either because the simplest thing is to say that Ray Gricar was just like his brother and jumped off a bridge (but why?) or that he ran away (without his car and lots of money left in the bank?) or that his disappearance was about a drug case because who would ever think that someone well-respected and "nice" like Jerry Sandusky would want to make a DA disappear? Ahem - alot of people might be thinking that now, actually. So many people had so much to lose - careers, money, prestige. Anyone connected to Sandusky or the scandal might have contacted Gricar to meet with them that day. :twocents:

Excuse me, but do you know about the serious mental disorder, Bi-Polar Disorder? ROy Gricar, RAy's brother, was not ' just depressed", he had a long standing hisotry of Bi-polar disorder.
He would have needed to be under close psychiatric monitoring for the correct med. dosage for all his life, once diagnosed, and he would have to then be COMPLIANT with the medication schedule.

Bi-Polar illness was NOT present in RAy Gricar. Thus, please dispose of your Razor. It doesn't cut the mustard.

I tried to follw the rest of your run- on sentence but could not do so.

From what I could glean, you believe there could well be a Sandusky connection. I don't know of anyone here who doesn't think that is a great possibility. However, not enough is known to state so with either authority or any degree of certainty.

As I have said, in one sense of the word, Ray Gricar COULD BE the most protected DA in PA because he FAILED to even seek indictment of Sandusky related to the 1998 charge. Because of lack of enough evidence to bring to trial and the possibility of double jeopardy, etc. Not for any nefarious reason on Ray's part.

 

[SeekingJana]

I have strong feeling that they are around

Around the crime or anoud the Internet or both?