PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

[AllisonS]

CJ : For brevity, I highlight this portion of your excellent Post. To me, this is a talking point. From maps, I, too have looked at these areas you mention. They jump out at me as areas of interest, also there is a small park in this same area. Thank you so much for your insight. I cannot re-word how well you have expressed this...I have had much the same impression of all you have said.

Have any tests been performed when the water levels were about at the same level as they were when RG disappeared, with similar style laptops dropped into the water (from different spots) to see where they end up?

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Just noticed this very pertinent video of the bridges at high water..probably higher than on 4/15 I would guess...

Susquehanna River flood stage at Lewisburg - YouTube

Wow...go to Full Screen on this one...had lots of fun doing freeze frames with it. I tried to lock into a view of the RR tressel, where it is cut off, but the film advanced too quickly. Excellent !!! Talk about High Tide !

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I know some have said it couldn't happen, but computers aren't always exactly tough. Could it have been thrown in as one piece, and banged against tree branches or something with that current, that led to the drive being dislodged from the shell?

LE says no. It was held in with a screw. Even with that, even in the flooding, I can't see the laptop washing down the river.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just noticed this very pertinent video of the bridges at high water..probably higher than on 4/15 I would guess...

Outstanding find! At about 18 seconds in, you can see the east side of the "island," and part of the bank. My understanding is that it was close to that level on 4-15-18/05, though it was below flood stage and dropping.

I think you can compare that with my photos and see the difference.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Have any tests been performed when the water levels were about at the same level as they were when RG disappeared, with similar style laptops dropped into the water (from different spots) to see where they end up?

That was never tried, but the debris might make a difference.

I should add that the damage to the laptop didn't indicate any impact damage.

 

[cj327]

LE says no. It was held in with a screw. Even with that, even in the flooding, I can't see the laptop washing down the river.

I am indeed basing my guesses of potential laptop movement downstream on experience with other rivers, mainly in the southern Appalachians. Like you, I grew up in a town on a river.

The current did not actually look very fast in the various photos I saw, though it looked slightly faster in the video. But...the speed of the water would not matter as much as the buoyancy of the object, which would determine how far it would have washed before it hit bottom (thinking of the hard drive mainly, because it was apparently stopped by hanging up on the bottom).

Just for fun, later I am going to calculate the specific gravity of the hard drive and laptop (or whatever you call weight divided by volume). Just a rough estimate based on manufacturer's specs....though those might not still be available anywhere online. Do we have the make and model of the laptop? I can look for that info myself.

I know specific gravity would change as they filled with water...but I want to compare the two items to see which might have sunk faster.

BTW, have any of you ever left your house carrying your laptop after removing it from its case? If yes, why?

 

[cj327]

Outstanding find! At about 18 seconds in, you can see the east side of the "island," and part of the bank. My understanding is that it was close to that level on 4-15-18/05, though it was below flood stage and dropping.

I think you can compare that with my photos and see the difference.

Hmmmm. I noticed other videos shot the same day and it looked like it was truely in flood stage the day that video was shot. As we know the day and time of that video, we could look up the river level on that day and on the week of 4/15. I will look into that later today.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I am indeed basing my guesses of potential laptop movement downstream on experience with other rivers, mainly in the southern Appalachians. Like you, I grew up in a town on a river.

The current did not actually look very fast in the various photos I saw, though it looked slightly faster in the video. But...the speed of the water would not matter as much as the buoyancy of the object, which would determine how far it would have washed before it hit bottom (thinking of the hard drive mainly, because it was apparently stopped by hanging up on the bottom).

Just for fun, later I am going to calculate the specific gravity of the hard drive and laptop (or whatever you call weight divided by volume). Just a rough estimate based on manufacturer's specs....though those might not still be available anywhere online. Do we have the make and model of the laptop? I can look for that info myself.

I know specific gravity would change as they filled with water...but I want to compare the two items to see which might have sunk faster.

I'm am old geology buff, so I'm familiar with specific gravity. Good, maybe we (well you) can discover something. I think on threads 3-5 is some information on the river dynamics at the time. Here is a photo and it seems to have bought ($2500) in 2003-4, if that is helpful. Could you try the company?

BTW, have any of you ever left your house carrying your laptop after removing it from its case? If yes, why?

I have never carried a laptop. Seriously, I don't travel much, so I don't need to be too portable.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is a link to a film, somewhat artsy, about the 2011 flood. A 55 gallon drum in the middle may give some idea of the speed of flow. Old 45 is across the river. Most of the houses are south of Market Street; Market Street is Route 45 before it crosses the bridge.

Too Much Brown Water on Vimeo

This one is sad. In 2009, two children drowned in the river. The went in perhaps 200 yards south of the bridge. Their bodies were found the next day about 125 yards further south.

http://www.wgal.com/video/20438238/detail.html

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I am indeed basing my guesses of potential laptop movement downstream on experience with other rivers, mainly in the southern Appalachians. Like you, I grew up in a town on a river.

The current did not actually look very fast in the various photos I saw, though it looked slightly faster in the video. But...the speed of the water would not matter as much as the buoyancy of the object, which would determine how far it would have washed before it hit bottom (thinking of the hard drive mainly, because it was apparently stopped by hanging up on the bottom).

Just for fun, later I am going to calculate the specific gravity of the hard drive and laptop (or whatever you call weight divided by volume). Just a rough estimate based on manufacturer's specs....though those might not still be available anywhere online. Do we have the make and model of the laptop? I can look for that info myself.

I know specific gravity would change as they filled with water...but I want to compare the two items to see which might have sunk faster.

BTW, have any of you ever left your house carrying your laptop after removing it from its case? If yes, why?

http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpspecificgravity/specific_gravity_equation.php

There is something on the specific gravity that you mention.
Too many years have gone by from my days of Physics, so I leave that for the Crime Lab...I hope
the analytical experts here don't end up with Paralysis of Analysis !

Now your question about the carry case: I have done lots of traveling with my laptop for GPS purposes. Like 300,000 miles worth of abuse. And I broadcast to you All today from that same laptop. It weathered the storm. So I very well know the routine of having everything together, including all the GPS stuff, including the extra power Inverter for the vehicle. I have usually had duplicates of everything with me, that is how important having the GPS up and running ALL the time. I had to have it, no down time !
I believe your question relates to WHY would RFG NOT take the carry case with him, right ? Well, he didn't need it. Operationally, he did not need it. It was going to be another burden to get rid of. It would affect HIS idea of Specific Gravity...these cases would ADD to bouyancy, as well as add protection to what he wanted to destroy.
It would also be something else that may identify him. RFG cut his tie with the carry case simply by leaving it behind.
In some prior discussions, I believe it was JJ who had said, that the internal battery would have lasted only for a few hours (tops). So again...the laptop was not going to be used...just abused in the drowning. May I emphasize abuse, such as to degrade, rust, go bye bye ...

 

[J. J. in Phila]

In some prior discussions, I believe it was JJ who had said, that the internal battery would have lasted only for a few hours (tops). So again...the laptop was not going to be used...just abused in the drowning. May I emphasize abuse, such as to degrade, rust, go bye bye ...

One theory I had was that he was going to download photos from a digital camera. His camera was at home, according to TG.

 

[cj327]

http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpspecificgravity/specific_gravity_equation.php
I believe your question relates to WHY would RFG NOT take the carry case with him, right ? Well, he didn't need it. Operationally, he did not need it. It was going to be another burden to get rid of. It would affect HIS idea of Specific Gravity...these cases would ADD to bouyancy, as well as add protection to what he wanted to destroy.
It would also be something else that may identify him. RFG cut his tie with the carry case simply by leaving it behind.
In some prior discussions, I believe it was JJ who had said, that the internal battery would have lasted only for a few hours (tops). So again...the laptop was not going to be used...just abused in the drowning. May I emphasize abuse, such as to degrade, rust, go bye bye ...

My thoughts exactly...almost verbatim!
Easier to get rid of without the case. Less "baggage" so to speak after ditching the laptop.


And a tangent...sorry, I did not research this, it has been covered already I am sure:
I am not sure why he didn't just take the hard drive out at home first...unless
1. he wanted to use the laptop on his little trip before removing the drive.
2. he didn't have time to remove it due to being in a hurry to leave to meet someone or ?
3. he knew that some data could be stored in the computer's other forms of memory (i.e. RAM) this is just a guess on my part, I don't know if anything could have been stored in temporary memory, or recovered from temporary memory.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

My thoughts exactly...almost verbatim!
Easier to get rid of without the case. Less "baggage" so to speak after ditching the laptop.


And a tangent...sorry, I did not research this, it has been covered already I am sure:
I am not sure why he didn't just take the hard drive out at home first...unless
1. he wanted to use the laptop on his little trip before removing the drive.
2. he didn't have time to remove it due to being in a hurry to leave to meet someone or ?
3. he knew that some data could be stored in the computer's other forms of memory (i.e. RAM) this is just a guess on my part, I don't know if anything could have been stored in temporary memory, or recovered from temporary memory.

The first one was covered. The second one only tangentially. The third one not all. Keep it up!

 

[AllisonS]

I recognize that this is an off the wall question, and I ask it only because I am amazed at some of the information that IS known on these boards, but does anyone know what brand/type of underwear RG was partial to?

I visited the Doe Network today for the first time and am in the process of looking through unidentified bodies, and one piece of info that I keep seeing on many bodies is the type of underwear found on the body. I know my hubby would die rather than wear anything other than one particular type of undies, and I pretty much feel the same way on style/type, so I assume that's something that would stay the same for most people, even if you were on the run.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

My thoughts exactly...almost verbatim!
Easier to get rid of without the case. Less "baggage" so to speak after ditching the laptop.


And a tangent...sorry, I did not research this, it has been covered already I am sure:
I am not sure why he didn't just take the hard drive out at home first...unless
1. he wanted to use the laptop on his little trip before removing the drive.
2. he didn't have time to remove it due to being in a hurry to leave to meet someone or ?
3. he knew that some data could be stored in the computer's other forms of memory (i.e. RAM) this is just a guess on my part, I don't know if anything could have been stored in temporary memory, or recovered from temporary memory.

CJ, you are Hot tonite ! JJ's response just above hit the nail on the head. You are bringing in some very good stuff here. Yes, Keep It Up !!!

On Point 3, my guess is that would have been lost too. Going to google an old Beta Geek Forum I used to use on this one.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I recognize that this is an off the wall question, and I ask it only because I am amazed at some of the information that IS known on these boards, but does anyone know what brand/type of underwear RG was partial to?

I visited the Doe Network today for the first time and am in the process of looking through unidentified bodies, and one piece of info that I keep seeing on many bodies is the type of underwear found on the body. I know my hubby would die rather than wear anything other than one particular type of undies, and I pretty much feel the same way on style/type, so I assume that's something that would stay the same for most people, even if you were on the run.

If you had not added the second paragraph, it would be off the wall. I don't know the type of underwear (or even if he wore any). Good question. If someone is willing to share, they can e-mail me.

 

[AllisonS]

I have another question concerning what I am seeing on the Doe Network. If a body is found and it says they have fingerprints available or DNA or dental records available, does it mean that these have been entered into CODIS? My law enforcement days were in the early 90's, and DNA was still fairly new and CODIS didn't exist, so I truly have not clue about all of this.

I assume that RG's fingerprints/DNA would be entered into CODIS with him not only being missing but also working for the government? I know that when I worked as an accountant for the government they took my fingerprints for a database.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have another question concerning what I am seeing on the Doe Network. If a body is found and it says they have fingerprints available or DNA or dental records available, does it mean that these have been entered into CODIS? My law enforcement days were in the early 90's, and DNA was still fairly new and CODIS didn't exist, so I truly have not clue about all of this.

I assume that RG's fingerprints/DNA would be entered into CODIS with him not only being missing but also working for the government? I know that when I worked as an accountant for the government they took my fingerprints for a database.

I think so. The did have his DNA. It was in the water bottle. They were able to get his prints of the outside of the Mini.

 

[AllisonS]

If you had not added the second paragraph, it would be off the wall. I don't know the type of underwear (or even if he wore any). Good question. If someone is willing to share, they can e-mail me.

I probably should have the paragraphs switched around. It would make more sense that way. I'm just lost in the middle of all these unidentified people and maybe I'm not thinking right at this moment.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I have another question concerning what I am seeing on the Doe Network. If a body is found and it says they have fingerprints available or DNA or dental records available, does it mean that these have been entered into CODIS? My law enforcement days were in the early 90's, and DNA was still fairly new and CODIS didn't exist, so I truly have not clue about all of this.

I assume that RG's fingerprints/DNA would be entered into CODIS with him not only being missing but also working for the government? I know that when I worked as an accountant for the government they took my fingerprints for a database.

IIRC, RFG's data is in the CODIS database. Dental records, and DNA. I have come across that in my readings.
Nice work on the underwear report. I now have better understanding why my Mother had always insisted that I wear clean and new underwear ...and I thought it was if I ended up in the hospital...lol.