PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

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  • #121
If you had not added the second paragraph, it would be off the wall. I don't know the type of underwear (or even if he wore any). Good question. If someone is willing to share, they can e-mail me.

Personally, I wear one type when at home and another when I go out. :innocent: The going out kind is to avoid embarassing panty lines. Not thinking dudes have that issue...so...who the he77 knows.
 
  • #122
Personally, I wear one type when at home and another when I go out. :innocent: The going out kind is to avoid embarassing panty lines. Not thinking dudes have that issue...so...who the he77 knows.

Yeah, men have an easier underwear situation...one type, all the time, end of story. That's a good thing though in this situation. It should make it easier to pin down what type he preferred.
 
  • #123
I think so. The did have his DNA. It was in the water bottle. They were able to get his prints of the outside of the Mini.

Having it and it being entered into CODIS or another database might be two different things entirely, although Lord C says it was entered into CODIS. That's a very helpful thing. If it's there then I would say it's a pretty high chance that most of the unidentified bodies can be eliminated (although I think it would still be a good idea to check). Before they get to the point where they are just links on the Doe Network, I would think they get screened pretty heavily against available data in CODIS and other databases (fingers crossed that someone is doing their job correctly).
 
  • #124
After looking over the 2005-2011 years on the Doe Network, I realize that I actually know very little physical type details about RG. I am looking at the FBI missing poster, and frankly the lack of details is puzzling. Did he have a watch, and if so what brand? What brand was his clothing and tennis shoes? Doe he have any scars or prior surgeries/bone breaks?

Lord C, you mentioned that you thought the dental info was entered into CODIS. Any chance you know where that is mentioned, in hopes that it actually lists some dental details that would be useful for comparison to these cases? Some of these cases are slight possiblities, but without further information it's unrealistic to try to compare.
 
  • #125
After looking over the 2005-2011 years on the Doe Network, I realize that I actually know very little physical type details about RG. I am looking at the FBI missing poster, and frankly the lack of details is puzzling. Did he have a watch, and if so what brand? What brand was his clothing and tennis shoes? Doe he have any scars or prior surgeries/bone breaks?

Lord C, you mentioned that you thought the dental info was entered into CODIS. Any chance you know where that is mentioned, in hopes that it actually lists some dental details that would be useful for comparison to these cases? Some of these cases are slight possiblities, but without further information it's unrealistic to try to compare.

He had a small scar on his cheek.
 
  • #126
NBC's Dateline is suppose to be running something of the Gricar case next Friday.
 
  • #127
After looking over the 2005-2011 years on the Doe Network, I realize that I actually know very little physical type details about RG. I am looking at the FBI missing poster, and frankly the lack of details is puzzling. Did he have a watch, and if so what brand? What brand was his clothing and tennis shoes? Doe he have any scars or prior surgeries/bone breaks?

Lord C, you mentioned that you thought the dental info was entered into CODIS. Any chance you know where that is mentioned, in hopes that it actually lists some dental details that would be useful for comparison to these cases? Some of these cases are slight possiblities, but without further information it's unrealistic to try to compare.

I will look for you where I had come across that info. It may have been just a comment made by LE, but I don't recall 'specifics' of what I had read...my bleeding eyeballs...will let you know, ok ?
 
  • #128
I will look for you where I had come across that info. It may have been just a comment made by LE, but I don't recall 'specifics' of what I had read...my bleeding eyeballs...will let you know, ok ?


LOL, I totally understand. Many of these unidentified reports get very specific on the dental records. Now, if all is entered into CODIS and other databases as it should be, then this is really redundant. However, and maybe I'm a wee bit cynical, I don't have 100% faith that this has occurred. Thank you!
 
  • #129
1) What do Ray's cell phone records show? Why haven't the police released them, even just for April 14th and 15th? Is it a professional courtesy type thing, protection of the Fornicola name, or what?
By "release", I don't mean give a summary or say a few words. I mean release hard copies. He's legally dead. Why not give up the cell phone records now?

2) How exactly was it determined that the hard drive found in the Susquehanna is the one which belonged in Ray's laptop?
By whom and what are the professional credentials? I've read that 2 hard drives were found in that same river. The " Disappeared" segment on Ray says they think they have the HD from his computer because it fits into it but seemed to say that they are not certain it came from his PC. I guess just because the other one didn't fit, then the one which did must be the right one? This isn't using the scientific method.

I'm thinking that maybe the reason there is difficulty with placing the hard drive in one place and the computer in another and so forth is because the hard drive isn't from his PC.

The logical question would then be: Why would someone throw 2 HDs, at least one of them corroded and totally nuked, into the Susquehanna near the bridge? To mislead. To obviously tie up loose ends with the county owned computer. I believe Ray( or another smart person wanting to take a HD but not let it be known that the HD was missing) would do that. Why have we never seen the other HD? How corroded was it?

Where did the other 2 HDs come from? Back to my knowledge of how people who are environmentally conscious ( or live in a city which has extreme restrictions on computer disposal) will donate their used computers and computer components to a Salvation Army or Goodwill. Donations are anonymous.
IF the disappearance was voluntary and planned, then he could have bought 2 old hard drives from a thrift store and thrown both into the water. Or had a helper who remained behind do so.

I am wondering if Ray never was certain that his HD was erased. The main was in a snit about his HD being erased for a long time, or he wanted people to think that he was....

I've always thought his many inquiries to be out of character for him.. especially the home PC Google searches which forensics found.
He KNEW better than to leave a trail!!! Was he meaning to " fry" the jointly used home PC hard drive too, to get rid of the search history? I don't think so. so there is another wrinkle we've never discussed in depth. Why, if a person was so concerned with destroying the data on one hard drive, would they leave info about how interested they were in doing so on ANOTHER computer?
*****Why not do the searches on the laptop computer that had the HD that was to be erased?????*****
"Sloppy" is a word which comes to mind IF what has been told to us is to be taken at face value. I don't believe Ray was sloppy. Cautious but not sloppy.

Here's what I am theorizing at this point:
His hard drive was removed, but kept, It was not thrown into the river because there was info on the hard drive that either he or someone else needed or wanted.

Occam's Razor theory: If a simple, logical explanation cannot be determined for the different locations of the two pieces of computer equipment, then the two never belonged together in the first place.

One more thing: Did Centre County issue multiple Microsystems brand laptops to employees during the time when Ray's drowned laptop was issued?
If so, have all of them been accounted for? What does the county do with an outdated laptop? Who had access to the laptops, if multiples did exist?


Just some things I have been thinking about. Please be kind. :):truce:
 
  • #130
LOL, I totally understand. Many of these unidentified reports get very specific on the dental records. Now, if all is entered into CODIS and other databases as it should be, then this is really redundant. However, and maybe I'm a wee bit cynical, I don't have 100% faith that this has occurred. Thank you!

I have always thought that those who are part of the chain of custody for forensic evidence in court have to have their DNA and fingerprints on file.
That way, there can be testing done by the defense team to exclude evidence tampering or accidental contamination.
Also, although there are bags for small items, larger items usually have a tape seal.

Am I wrong in thinking that the rules of processing evidence at trial include controls? And that as the prosecutor who would present the court with all types of evidentiary exhibits, Ray's prints and DNA profile we're in the Centre County database already? ( As would be his ADAs and of course, the crime scene technicians who collected and sealed the evidence. And the lab personnel doing any testing. ( The list could get pretty long, so hopefully this is clear..)
 
  • #131
After looking over the 2005-2011 years on the Doe Network, I realize that I actually know very little physical type details about RG. I am looking at the FBI missing poster, and frankly the lack of details is puzzling. Did he have a watch, and if so what brand? What brand was his clothing and tennis shoes? Doe he have any scars or prior surgeries/bone breaks?

Lord C, you mentioned that you thought the dental info was entered into CODIS. Any chance you know where that is mentioned, in hopes that it actually lists some dental details that would be useful for comparison to these cases? Some of these cases are slight possiblities, but without further information it's unrealistic to try to compare.

Allison, I hope this will be of assistance to you :

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/25/case-of-missing-pa-district-attorney-ray-gricar-baffles-police/

Specifically the following from that article :

Gricar was also recently added to the Justice Department's National Missing and Unidentified Persons System.

"NamUs has a rich dental profile for Gricar and potential matches are actively being compared," Todd Matthews, NamUs' regional system specialist, told AOL News. "There's also a complete DNA profile for Gricar in the system. Cases are added to the system on a daily basis, so they stay in a constant state of comparison."
 
  • #132
River Levels at Lewisburg

OK, the video I posted from the Sep 8, 2011 flood is probably not representative of what it was on 4/15/2005

On Sep 8 it was 167,000 cubic ft/sec....25.4 feet on the gauge

On Apr 15, 2005 it was 10,700 cfs.....4.5 feet on the gauge and falling...

Hard for me to fathom those numbers...21 ft difference! But it makes sense given the historic values for Lewisburg.
 
  • #133
River Levels at Lewisburg

OK, the video I posted from the Sep 8, 2011 flood is probably not representative of what it was on 4/15/2005

On Sep 8 it was 167,000 cubic ft/sec....25.4 feet on the gauge

On Apr 15, 2005 it was 10,700 cfs.....4.5 feet on the gauge and falling...

Hard for me to fathom those numbers...21 ft difference! But it makes sense given the historic values for Lewisburg.

Very good ! Without getting into the 'Specific Gravity' you had mentioned, do you have some preliminary conclusions that could be made, based on these numbers ? :)
 
  • #134
NBC's Dateline is suppose to be running something of the Gricar case next Friday.


I hope that 'something' includes our new Person of Interest, Ivy Butterworth.

>>>>>Programming the DVR as of this Posting<<<<<<
 
  • #135
1) What do Ray's cell phone records show? Why haven't the police released them, even just for April 14th and 15th? Is it a professional courtesy type thing, protection of the Fornicola name, or what?
By "release", I don't mean give a summary or say a few words. I mean release hard copies. He's legally dead. Why not give up the cell phone records now?

PEF isn't the issue. She admitted calling him numerous times on 4/15. On 4/16, after he was reported missing, The CDT tried as well. There is no reason why they could not release a list of the calls, the duration, and what cell tower(s) carried the calls. They could easily release the records after redacting the phone numbers.

I strongly suspect the real reason is that RFG was much closer to Centre Hall than indicated, possibly even west of Centre Hall. http://www.centredaily.com/2011/04/28/2676956/triangulation.html

2) How exactly was it determined that the hard drive found in the Susquehanna is the one which belonged in Ray's laptop?

They didn't. It matched the type, but there was no identifying label on it. I think it was his.

The corrosion on both would indicate that both had been in the water for a while, at least 4-6 week, prior to the discovery of each. Even under exceptionally adverse conditions, they just don't rust that much in less time.

The laptop was discovered on 7/30/05. My guess is that it would have been in there since 6/1/05. That still leaves a lot of time for someone else to drop it.
 
  • #136
River Levels at Lewisburg

OK, the video I posted from the Sep 8, 2011 flood is probably not representative of what it was on 4/15/2005

On Sep 8 it was 167,000 cubic ft/sec....25.4 feet on the gauge

On Apr 15, 2005 it was 10,700 cfs.....4.5 feet on the gauge and falling...

Hard for me to fathom those numbers...21 ft difference! But it makes sense given the historic values for Lewisburg.

That still would put the drive under 4 feet of water.

BTW: Do you have the readings on 7/30/08? That is when my photos were taken.
 
  • #137
Laptop and hard drive density exercise.

This was a rather silly exercise, but here is what I got:

Density of water = 0.578 oz/inch3
Density of Micron PC Transport T3000 (before water leaks into it) = 0.420 oz/inch3
Density of T3000 Hard Drive = 0.869 oz/inch3

I won't bother trying to paste my calculations into here.

The T3000 looked like the right one, or close to it anyway (2003 model).

Interestingly, all of the Transport laptops in this series said "user-removable hard drive"...not sure exactly what that means, but I assume you don't have to open it up completely to get the drive out.

Also, the drive is physically smaller than I thought it would be. I had only worked with desktop computer drives before. Laptop drives are quite small by comparison, even "back then." They are referred to as 2.5 inch drives.

Anyway, I was just trying to get an idea of which one would sink faster, and thus whether they could have been carried different distances by the current if dropped into the water in the same location.
The laptop model is big and clunky compared to its peers, with lots of air inside..it was apparently designed with extra room for upgraded components etc. I would guess it would take on water pretty fast though. If anyone wants to test this, drop an old laptop into the bathtub and see when the bubbles stop coming out!

http://web.archive.org/web/20050513195236/http://www.mpccorp.com/common/specifications/notebooks/transport_comparison.pdf
 
  • #138
PEF isn't the issue. She admitted calling him numerous times on 4/15. On 4/16, after he was reported missing, The CDT tried as well. There is no reason why they could not release a list of the calls, the duration, and what cell tower(s) carried the calls. They could easily release the records after redacting the phone numbers.

I strongly suspect the real reason is that RFG was much closer to Centre Hall than indicated, possibly even west of Centre Hall. http://www.centredaily.com/2011/04/28/2676956/triangulation.html



They didn't. It matched the type, but there was no identifying label on it. I think it was his.

The corrosion on both would indicate that both had been in the water for a while, at least 4-6 week, prior to the discovery of each. Even under exceptionally adverse conditions, they just don't rust that much in less time.

The laptop was discovered on 7/30/05. My guess is that it would have been in there since 6/1/05. That still leaves a lot of time for someone else to drop it.

Hi, JJ :)
No, I didn't mean that Patty's phone calls were being protected. Rather, that if Ray had made phone calls to other, previously unknown female or females, it would not be a happy thing for her to know. That sort of protection of a lady's feelings.

I don't know a lot about PA geography. Are you saying that he may have gone somewhere other than Lewisburg, or do you mean that he perhaps took a detour of his own volition on the way to Lewisburg?

I'm thinking that the HD or both recovered HDs may have been in the water quite a bit longer than the computer body. I've lived on the coast, and know the rate at which seawater corrodes, and used to spend a great deal of time on a yacht in a freshwater river which is much larger than the Susquehanna but has many dams to control flooding from occuring. (I' ve lived in several houses on bodies of water and have never seen a flood. It must be terrifying, judging from the videos). I know from cleaning the chrome parts of the yacht, that corrosion was extremely slow. A person had to be a slovenly first mate to allow a freshwater boat's metal become corroded.
Conversly, the vintage Italian Donzi speedboat we used to play "Miami Vice" running through Biscayne Bay had to have meticulous cleaning, and dry docking in the winter time.

IMO, the hard drive we've seen pics of looks like it was in fresh water for many months.
Again, :truce: JMO.
 
  • #139
That still would put the drive under 4 feet of water.

BTW: Do you have the readings on 7/30/08? That is when my photos were taken.

I was going to ask! (too lazy to find those photos again)

It is listed as 2,100 cfs or about 1.7 feet on the gauge for 7/30/2008.

It is not a user-friendly site. I got the cfs data from here:

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/dv?referred_module=sw&site_no=01553500


And then went here to match flow (cfs) with gauge height (I could only find gauge height data for these dates, not for all dates, but the relationship between cfs-gauge should not change):

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/measurements/?site_no=01553500
 
  • #140
I was going to ask! (too lazy to find those photos again)

It is listed as 2,100 cfs or about 1.7 feet on the gauge for 7/30/2008.

It is not a user-friendly site. I got the cfs data from here:

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/dv?referred_module=sw&site_no=01553500


And then went here to match flow (cfs) with gauge height (I could only find gauge height data for these dates, not for all dates, but the relationship between cfs-gauge should not change):

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/measurements/?site_no=01553500

Thank you, and a good job overall. Okay, there was about 2.8 feet of water over that spot than in my photo.

Now, looking at these numbers, would you conclude that the river would or would not carry it to where it was found?
 
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