Identified! PA - White Haven, 'Beth Doe' & Unborn Baby 169UFPA, 16-22, Dec'76 - #1 - Evelyn Colon

[mtrooper]

So, I am thinking some of the rule outs need to be re-ruled out.... If they haven't already. I am thinking DNA is the only to go. With the way she was cut up makes me think this wasn't a first, I would think a forensic pathologist would be able to see hesitation cuts and such. And we can only hope that her DNA was run through codis. I ONLY say that last part because the local LE neglected to fo just that in a 1983 murder case until last month. It's like it suddenly dawned on them... Oh yeah we have codis. Duh.

 

[RubyRed]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg241/LavandaDolce/CARBONCOUNTYJANEDOE.jpg

 

[PFF]

Doe network link http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/169ufpa.html

 

[hmg]

Just another thought when it comes to closed communities... in Orange County, NY there's several small communities of Hasidic Jews who are mostly closed off from the greater community. Many residents have a 1st language of Yiddish and most are of eastern European decent, particularly Romanian. Women typically marry between the age 17-20 and are expected to marry within the community and produce children. New Square, NY and Kiryas Joel, NY are two examples of these communities. Apparently up until the 1970s, the Williamsburg area of NYC had pockets of these communities as well.

I wonder if that theory has been explored at all in this case.

 

[carbuff]

The new reconstruction is one of Channel 5 Boston's headline stories too:

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/slideshow/news/23465872/detail.html

Has a nice picture of the dunes area, though I don't think it's the exact location.

 

[Mensch]

So, I am thinking some of the rule outs need to be re-ruled out.... If they haven't already. I am thinking DNA is the only to go. With the way she was cut up makes me think this wasn't a first, I would think a forensic pathologist would be able to see hesitation cuts and such. And we can only hope that her DNA was run through codis. I ONLY say that last part because the local LE neglected to fo just that in a 1983 murder case until last month. It's like it suddenly dawned on them... Oh yeah we have codis. Duh.

CODIS was not created until appx 1990. It is good to see that some cases are being reviewed for DNA to be entered now.

 

[Mensch]

Just another thought when it comes to closed communities... in Orange County, NY there's several small communities of Hasidic Jews who are mostly closed off from the greater community. Many residents have a 1st language of Yiddish and most are of eastern European decent, particularly Romanian. Women typically marry between the age 17-20 and are expected to marry within the community and produce children. New Square, NY and Kiryas Joel, NY are two examples of these communities. Apparently up until the 1970s, the Williamsburg area of NYC had pockets of these communities as well.

I wonder if that theory has been explored at all in this case.

Is there a specific piece of information that would cause you to consider this being tied in any way to a Jewish community?:waitasec:

 

[CarlK90245]

I have read that paternity tests for male children are possible because the genealogical traits that remain the same from father to child are passed via the Y chromosome. Since females don't have a Y chromosome, the traits do not pass from father to the female child.

My understanding is that there is no way to test paternity of a female via DNA, and they have to use less reliable means. Does anyone know if my understanding is correct? (i.e., if there is a way via DNA to determine paternity of a Female child)

The reason I am bringing this up is that it would be nice if they could get a profile into CODIS of the unborn female child's DNA in order to possibly identify the father at some later date, for example if he was arrested for another serious crime and forced to provide a DNA sample.

I suspect that if you could identify the father, you would probably also identify the perp, and then you could identify the Beth and Baby Doe.

 

[carbuff]

I have read that paternity tests for male children are possible because the genealogical traits that remain the same from father to child are passed via the Y chromosome. Since females don't have a Y chromosome, the traits do not pass from father to the female child.

My understanding is that there is no way to test paternity of a female via DNA, and they have to use less reliable means. Does anyone know if my understanding is correct? (i.e., if there is a way via DNA to determine paternity of a Female child)

The reason I am bringing this up is that it would be nice if they could get a profile into CODIS of the unborn child's DNA in order to possibly identify the father at some later date, for example if he was arrested for another serious crime and forced to provide a DNA sample.

I suspect that if you could identify the father, you would probably also identify the perp, and then you could identify the Beth and Baby Doe.

One of the X chromosomes in a female child comes from the father. I don't know whether that's as accurate as the Y chromosome testing for a male child, but it ought to be able to identify a male relative.

 

[CarlK90245]

One of the X chromosomes in a female child comes from the father. I don't know whether that's as accurate as the Y chromosome testing for a male child, but it ought to be able to identify a male relative.

This is not to say that the father does not pass on various traits to a female child. It is just that the traits that stay constant from generation to generation and are testable reside on the Y chromosome.

 

[carbuff]

This is not to say that the father does not pass on various traits to a female child. It is just that the traits that stay constant from generation to generation and are testable reside on the Y chromosome.

Yes, the same as mDNA for the female line.

The genes that come from the father are still identifiable, though. They'll mutate and migrate over time, but from father to daughter is still testable. I've got some articles here somewhere...

added: this isn't the one I was looking for, but it looks like it covers everything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling#DNA_family_relationship_analysis

 

[apearn]

UPDATE: Edward Edwards Admits To Other Murders

http://www.nbc15.com/news/headlines/40929997.html

According to part of this he was in PA as well as several other states - shot some victims in the neck - etc. He seemed to like couples though.

 

[hmg]

Is there a specific piece of information that would cause you to consider this being tied in any way to a Jewish community?:waitasec:

We had talked early in this thread about the possibility of Beth being from a closed community such as a Romani and possibly being from a Eastern European background. As I said many of these communities are insular and many people living there have an Eastern European background.

This was just another possibility along the same line. Whether or not that's a strong theory is questionable but it was an idea we had thrown around.

 

[apearn]

in Orange County, NY there's several small communities of Hasidic Jews who are mostly closed off from the greater community. Many residents have a 1st language of Yiddish and most are of eastern European decent, particularly Romanian.

I grew up very near there and I remember having 2 Romanian sisters enter our school - probably direct from Romania. They were older (the school was trying to figure out were to place them) and did not speak English so I'm assuming they were very recent immigrants......hmmm, interesting thoughts about that population.

I would say that was 1978-1979 when they entered my school.

 

[Mensch]

We had talked early in this thread about the possibility of Beth being from a closed community such as a Romani and possibly being from a Eastern European background. As I said many of these communities are insular and many people living there have an Eastern European background.

This was just another possibility along the same line. Whether or not that's a strong theory is questionable but it was an idea we had thrown around.

Thanks hmg,
I am puzzled by the theory of it being a woman or a perp from a "closed area". Just some info on the communities you named. They are indeed closed communities (so are (the Amish people)but they are not communes or cults.

Honor killings are not a part of the culture or the religion. Killing of any kind in any manner is the worst possible act to commit. That is not to say there have not been isolated incidents of physical violence by a mentally unstable person.

As to the victim- chances are next to zero of her being of one of these communities. If she were from one of these communities, there would be many signs of that, even in death. These 'signs' are consistent among the Orthodox Jews; not so among the other groups.

 

[Mensch]

I grew up very near there and I remember having 2 Romanian sisters enter our school - probably direct from Romania. They were older (the school was trying to figure out were to place them) and did not speak English so I'm assuming they were very recent immigrants......hmmm, interesting thoughts about that population.

I would say that was 1978-1979 when they entered my school.

Yes, it is interesting as we speculate who this woman might be. However, being Romanian does not make one Jewish and if you were in a public school these sisters would not have been from any Hassidic group. They would homeschooled if no private one available.
I say this to explain the lifestyle which makes it virtually impossible this woman was from one of these communities; and to make clear that honor killing is not part of that lifestyle.

 

[hmg]

I did not think honor killing was part of Judaism, nor did I think these groups in Orange County were "cultish" or communes. I am relatively familiar with Hasidim and am well aware of the many cultural aspects of the religion. I did not mean to imply that all Romanians were Hasidic as that certainly isn't the case-- my only point was that many Hasidic Jews from Orange County are Romanian and it's possible Beth was Romanian.

The idea of her being from a closed community came from a few different factors, the most obvious being that it seemed unusual that no one was looking for her, combined with her ethnic heritage. We discussed at length the possibility of Beth being a Romani earlier in this thread and this was simply a similar line of thinking. The Romani people have equally strong ideas about death as Hasidic Jews and yet, as a group most people here thought that the idea of her being Romani was a possibility.

Chances are she's not from any closed community. I simply wanted to expand on ideas that were stated earlier in the thread.

 

[hmg]

Here is the post where we began talking about the possibility of Beth being Romani or from a closed community: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3903487&highlight=gypsy#post3903487

 

[high voltage]

Romani and Romanian isn't the same thing actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_people

 

[hmg]

Romani and Romanian isn't the same thing actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_people

I'm unsure why you would think anyone was implying it was.

Clearly in other posts we were talking about Romani referring to the people who some people might still call "gypsy".

There is a separate issue that Beth may be from an Eastern European or Mediterranean country. One country that fits this description is Romania. I did point out that the Hasidic communities in NYS have large populations of Romanians so that may have confused the issue, but I was not implying Romani = Romanian. I'm sorry if that was confusing.

I think considering the fact that Beth is probably not Romani, Romanian, or Hasidic makes all this irrelevant. I'm sorry for diverting the thread into this direction.