Pageant Kids: A Rant

[openminded1]

But you will note that all of them condemn the child pagents related to THIS case and they all caution against "too much". So I would ask what is "too much" and I would wager that most parents who are into this sort of thing, don't just stop at one. My guess is that parents are probably either into this or not. And if they are, I wonder how many stop short of "too much". Furthermore, the things that are highlighted by these "experts" are the talent performances.

But I want to clarify that I totally agree with the experts quoted from familyeducation.com and that I think that any participation in these things is ultimately harmful to the child's psyche even this side of "too much", should that actually exist.

JMO

How many parents take the sports thing too far? Lots. I know for a fact that there have been little girls in my daughter's dance class that clearly did not want to be there- when your child stands on stage and cries, that's a good clue- yet these girls are signed up for 3 and 4 days a week of classes. However, should we say that all sports are bad or all dancing is bad because there are a few bad apples in the bunch?

Let me state again that I have not allowed my own child, even though she has begged, to participate in a pageant for many reasons. However, just because I wouldn't allow it based on my own opinions does not mean that makes it wrong for everyone.

 

[Hyatt]

Thankyou Southcity mom......Im pleased someone has agreed with me..I thought that post no 37 would bring more comments than it has.

Well I agree with both of you but I thought Misty's post was regarding older children, adolescents who, at first glance, looked older than they were.

However, to be honest, I see many girls of all ages painted/dressed up to look much older than they are so somehow they must FEEL that the general concensus approves. And I think that the problem lies in this "Oh isn't that cute!" attitude. Like I said before, this society promotes this type of behaviour by and large. After all, most of them would say that they are probably just following fashion and it is adults who are designing these fashions. So how can one justify singling out a single adult for such a reaction when mainstream society inadvertently promotes it?

JMO

 

[ljwf22]

Watched a "special" on TV some time ago about child beauty pageants and it was very absorbing. Can't, for the life of me, remember the name of it now, but I'm sure some of you have seen it. It's been on several times, actually. I think I saw it on HBO, but also on A&E and maybe PBS, but just can't really remember now. At any rate, I saw a lot of unhappy little girls. They were tired and "over it" and just wanted to go to sleep or quit trying to remember what to say or stop having to do the dance steps. I saw this with several little girls. Now, there were older girls, probably in their early teens, who seemed to be "into" the pageants, so I have less problem with what I saw about them...except to say they looked very much like street-walkers to me...when they had on their pageant "look". I was kinda horrified!

I was struck by how many of the fathers were really participating with the mothers. They drove them to the pageants...especially when they were out of town, and sat there in the hotel room going through the routines and making suggestions. Many of these families did not appear to be wealthy at all, so this was costing them in rather important ways. If there was another child in the family, he/she was kinda in the corner while the "star" was catered to.

I saw little girls crying, being "threatened" by mom, and tired. I saw mothers barely able to sit in their seats, mouthing all the songs and mimicking the dance, while also looking like they were going to "die" before the judging was completed. I saw mothers looking like the world was over when their daughter lost. It just wasn't pretty. Yes, I did see the opposite, but not very much. There were some fairly happy kids and mothers, but most of the time it seemed to be because they won!

Just thinking about what I saw makes me wonder if there wasn't something else these families could have done with their time together that would have been so much more enriching than these pageants.

Just my opinion based on what I saw. I know there are those of you on here who feel the opposite about this and are sensitive to this subject. I'm not trying to pick fights or hurt feelings, so I apologize in advance if that's what I've done.

gaia

Was this "Show Biz Moms & Dads"? I think it was on Bravo. There was a pageant girl, a family of seven kids who were being forced to follow dad's dream of making it big as an actor, a football player and a child actress. It was very sad, especially the little girl doing pageants. Giving the kids Pixi-Stix was the big treat for a sugar boost. IIRC, the grandmother of this little girl was paying all the entry fees and for costumes and lessons. The amount paid out in winnings was a tiny fraction of what the family paid to enter. I remember the little girl especially hated the spray-on tan. The mom & grandma were especially catty about other contestants and their families.

 

[Hyatt]

How many parents take the sports thing too far? Lots. I know for a fact that there have been little girls in my daughter's dance class that clearly did not want to be there- when your child stands on stage and cries, that's a good clue- yet these girls are signed up for 3 and 4 days a week of classes. However, should we say that all sports are bad or all dancing is bad because there are a few bad apples in the bunch?

Let me state again that I have not allowed my own child, even though she has begged, to participate in a pageant for many reasons. However, just because I wouldn't allow it based on my own opinions does not mean that makes it wrong for everyone.

Yes, lots of parents take the sports thing too far but at least we can agree that sports is good for the body, even if some excessively competitive bullies cause mayhem and violence on the bleachers and make their children's lives miserable because of it OR suceed in instilling the same excessively competitive spirit in their offspring. But when you mention "a few bad apples in the bunch" are you including the JonBenet case in that? Because your experts are and the Ramsey example is what got this thread started in the first place. I think it's good for people interested in this case to know what familyeducation.com experts have to say about this and YOUR experts too since they all agree that there was a problem here.

JMO

 

[Hyatt]

Well I agree with both of you but I thought Misty's post was regarding older children, adolescents who, at first glance, looked older than they were.

However, to be honest, I see many girls of all ages painted/dressed up to look much older than they are so somehow they must FEEL that the general concensus approves. And I think that the problem lies in this "Oh isn't that cute!" attitude. Like I said before, this society promotes this type of behaviour by and large. After all, most of them would say that they are probably just following fashion and it is adults who are designing these fashions. So how can one justify singling out a single adult for such a reaction when mainstream society inadvertently promotes it?

Quoted to edit/add something that was on my mind but that I lost sight of: the problem is the wide spectrum of ages and of severity of such sexualization of young people/kids. Establishing what is "over the top" is not easy, i.e. dancing is good for everyone, including kids of all ages. Hip movement shouldn't be automatically ruled out because of its potentially sexual innuendo. So where does one draw the line? I know mothers who face this conundrum upon watching their 6 yr. old's dancing performance. The clips that I saw of JonBenet dressed in a cowboy costume seemed all right but other dances, hairdos, moves, costumes that were part of her performances, clearly were not, IMO. And age-wise when can it be considered okay for girls to don adult apparel, make-up etc.? These are not easy black and white questions but no purpose is served by denying the blatantly sexualized nature of some of JonBenet's performances which have ALL the experts brought into this discussion claiming that HER case was over the top.

JMO

 

[openminded1]

Yes, lots of parents take the sports thing too far but at least we can agree that sports is good for the body, even if some excessively competitive bullies cause mayhem and violence on the bleachers and make their children's lives miserable because of it OR suceed in instilling the same excessively competitive spirit in their offspring. But when you mention "a few bad apples in the bunch" are you including the JonBenet case in that? Because your experts are and the Ramsey example is what got this thread started in the first place. I think it's good for people interested in this case to know what familyeducation.com experts have to say about this and YOUR experts too since they all agree that there was a problem here.

JMO

Actually, if my husband were here he would say with much more detail than I can that, in many cases, sports are not good for young children because many times they are pushed to do things their bodies just aren't conditioned for yet, and there is a high risk of serious injury. Add to that the fact that many kids participate without doing the proper warm ups and the risk of injury increses greatly. That doesn't make parents who put young children in sports bad does it?

I can find you lots of experts that say most public schools are bad places for children. Does that make every parent who send their child into an age segregated classroom with a canned curriculum a bad parent? I don't think so.

Carol Lynn Morse, from the article I quoted never made an assumption about the JonBenet case. Any true expert could not do so either, without first having interviewed the little girl and/or her family and friends.

Edited to add: exactly when it is appropriate for a child to wear makeup, etc. is not up to us or any other collective group of people. It is up to the individual parent of the child. I know little babies who have their ears pierced, but for my daughter, that won't happen until she's 12- if she wants to. No one is right or wrong, just raising their own child as they themsleves see fit.

 

[cappuccina]

SOME form of SCHOOL or SOME form of PHYSICAL ACTIVITY are things that children UNIVERSALLY need to be doing...

Beauty Pageants are not a normal activity for any child, iIN ANY FORM, anywhere, under any circumstances...

 

[openminded1]

SOME form of SCHOOL or SOME form of PHYSICAL ACTIVITY are things that children UNIVERSALLY need to be doing...

Beauty Pageants are not a normal activity for any child, iIN ANY FORM, anywhere, under any circumstances...

Maybe not normal to you, but pageants are the activity of choice for some children and their parents. It is no less normal than sports, or music lessons- children don't NEED those things. Posting on internet crime forums isn't exactly normal either, but here we are:dance: lol.

 

[concernedperson]

SOME form of SCHOOL or SOME form of PHYSICAL ACTIVITY are things that children UNIVERSALLY need to be doing...

Beauty Pageants are not a normal activity for any child, iIN ANY FORM, anywhere, under any circumstances...

I agree especially in the form of young children. The false expectation is the parents not the child. The child wants to be loved and protected not exploited and demanded more from than they understand how to handle.

The front and center stage for a child is to gain their parent's approval. Not the audience.

 

[Hyatt]

Maybe not normal to you, but pageants are the activity of choice for some children and their parents. It is no less normal than sports, or music lessons- children don't NEED those things. Posting on internet crime forums isn't exactly normal either, but here we are:dance: lol.

I don't see why posting here is abnormal and I think that this argument is getting academic. You are right that the article's writer doesn't pronounce overt judgment on the JonBenet case but she does so by inference, by having her "pageant mother" draw the line at the JonBenet case and then by having her pro-pageant experts caution against excess.

For me, the bottom line of all of this is that much of this "industry" frequently goes over the top and CAN be labeled as dysfunctional and I believe that it was general family dysfunctionalism (of which the pagents were a part) that killed JonBenet.

(Every time I write that child's name I can't help but think of Patsy's somewhat misguided pretentions. She spells it using a French accent over the last "e" to make it French, whereas in fact no combination of "e" + plus that particular accent + "t" exists in the French language.) Like I said elsewhere, the topics that most interest me in this case are the psychological ones.

JMO

 

[cappuccina]

...backed up by facts stating why beauty pageants are a normal, natural and healthy part of child development...

Go for it Ma'am, I'm all ears...

 

[Hyatt]

Have you ever been to a pageant? I know one kid personally who competes in them, and she spends a lot of time preparing and practicing. There is skill involved. It's not about who shows up looking the best, for sure. Just like Miss America- the prettiest girl doesn't always win.

I do agree that there are better venues for a child to compete in, but that is just my opinion.

Edited to add:
http://www.oslc.org/inthenews/bfart1.html
Child psychologists and other professionals disagree on whether pageants -- in the news since the murder of 6-year-old pageant veteran JonBenet Ramsey in Boulder, Colo. -- are positive for girls like Michelle.

In reading this article, it looks like the professionals disagree much like the people on this board. Again, it is a matter of opinion.

I could probably find links to refute most things that are presented on familyeducation.com

Well, here goes a generalization but I can't help it, it's what I believe: show me a kid who spends a lot of time preparing for beauty pageants and I'll show you a future woman chronically frustrated after the age of 30 who has become a basket case much like any woman who would go to her grave defending a pack of lies through which an international public can see, just so that she and her family "don't LOOK bad".

JMO

 

[openminded1]

...backed up by facts stating why beauty pageants are a normal, natural and healthy part of child development...

Go for it Ma'am, I'm all ears...

Um, I think the shear number of pageants out there makes it clear that this is a normal activity. I believe every state has a "Little Miss" competition.

What is natural and healthy for a child is up to each parent to decide for themselves. No government agency or any other group has the right to tell me- or anyone else- how I can or can not raise my child as long as I am not breaking any laws.

 

[concernedperson]

Um, I think the shear number of pageants out there makes it clear that this is a normal activity. I believe every state has a "Little Miss" competition.

What is natural and healthy for a child is up to each parent to decide for themselves. No government agency or any other group has the right to tell me- or anyone else- how I can or can not raise my child as long as I am not breaking any laws.

I agree the government doesn't have a right to intercede unless there is abuse.The thing I am concerned about is the message that "just smile" and be quiet. I know it doesn't apply in every case but it does set a precedent for the future.

Children are just that, children. They rely on parental support and parental guidance. JonBenet was especially presented in an unnatural light. No one can tell me that a 6 year is expected to live up to a contrived image.

With that said boys who are recruited for baseball at a young age deserve another consideration. I think we need to let children be children. We cannot expect them to be adults...they aren't.

 

[Hyatt]

Um, I think the shear number of pageants out there makes it clear that this is a normal activity. I believe every state has a "Little Miss" competition.

What is natural and healthy for a child is up to each parent to decide for themselves. No government agency or any other group has the right to tell me- or anyone else- how I can or can not raise my child as long as I am not breaking any laws.

Hmm, there is a sheer number of many things out there, many of which can not really be considered normal by any stretch of the imagination, so I consider that a highly dangerous argument. But you know, if there is a point to this back and forth banter it is surely that while we all can agree on some things that make us all go "Yuck!" it is perhaps more useful to look at other things which are both accepted by large portions of the population and yet SHOULD make us go "Yuck!" if we think of the possible ramifications of such practices. Child beauty pageants are one of them. And while I'm not so naive as to think that I have converted you nor any other reader to my viewpoint regarding this, discussion will at least make us all think twice about the practice and perhaps recall how other people may view it - therefore how it CAN be potentially viewed. That's called education for all involved and it is always a win-win situation.

And with that, I'd better go check on supper.

JMO

 

[Hyatt]

Um, I think the shear number of pageants out there makes it clear that this is a normal activity. I believe every state has a "Little Miss" competition.

What is natural and healthy for a child is up to each parent to decide for themselves. No government agency or any other group has the right to tell me- or anyone else- how I can or can not raise my child as long as I am not breaking any laws.

Well .. I'm not sure that I'm that confortable with your last paragraph. Incest victims are told in many cases that their abuse is "natural and healthy" and thus we cannot always respect each parent's right to decide for themselves. I know that may sound argumentative since it transgresses the stipulation you make: it breaks the laws. But I guess that what I think is that we all frequently tend to replicate whatever our parents did to us, good or bad or even neutral and EDUCATION IMO is that huge field beyond the clear-cut realm of black and white LAWS where people can not be stubborn about their long-held beliefs and actually discuss, not the iron hand of the law, but rather the nuances of relative merit of different practices.

And Concerned, many could say that the public sexualization of a child IS a form of abuse, and beyond the reality that intervention is frequently necessary in parent-child dysfunctionalism, laws tend to follow education subsequent to public awareness of harmful behaviour. But I say Amen to your statement that we "should let children just be children" How ironic that a child should spend a good portion of childhood attempting to look older and then much of the rest of their lives trying to look younger. Something is screwed up there, IMO.

It's been fun discussing.

JMO

JMO

 

[southcitymom]

Well I agree with both of you but I thought Misty's post was regarding older children, adolescents who, at first glance, looked older than they were.

However, to be honest, I see many girls of all ages painted/dressed up to look much older than they are so somehow they must FEEL that the general concensus approves. And I think that the problem lies in this "Oh isn't that cute!" attitude. Like I said before, this society promotes this type of behaviour by and large. After all, most of them would say that they are probably just following fashion and it is adults who are designing these fashions. So how can one justify singling out a single adult for such a reaction when mainstream society inadvertently promotes it?

JMO

You raise some interesting points, Hyatt. What to do about the over-sexualization of children? At these young ages, it is intrisically fantasy play if they are left to their own devices.

Dress up is one of the play activities of choice in my household. My 6-year-old son and 4-year-old son dress up constantly - as cowboys, pirates, superheroes, etc...and they always want to have a weapon. We have two huge chests of dress up clothes with little regard to gender roles. For example, there is a Survivor buff that they both like to wear in mini-skirt fashion. Still, their tastes run more towards male-stuff. And the male costumes they like to dress up in are not sexual in nature.

By comparison, my 6-year-old goddaughter loves to dress up in all types of beauty pageant/ fairy princess wear complete with boas, makeup, fingernail and toenail polsih and glitter and jewels and crowns. Are her feminine choices somehow more sexualized just because they are female? One of my goddaughter's best friend's is a tomboy and chooses the sorts of costumes my sons do - is she somehow sexualized less than my goddaughter because of these choices?

All interesting questions. My parents raised 3 girls. I was never a girly girl but I desparately wanted to wear makeup and have my ears pierced because the rule in my house was "not until you're 13." When I was 13, I got my ears pierced and started to wear makeup, but those things didn't last long because I wasn't into it even though I had wanted it so desparately because it was taboo. But even without those things, I wanted to be older than I was and I wanted to be perceived as older than I was from about the age of 10 on.

I'm not going to throw stones at the beauty pageant world from the standpoint of over-sexualization of young girls. I will say that I personally find it creepy. But I also find it creepy to read about six year old boys crying on a Little League field with overzealous parents on the sidelines.

It may not be a popular opinion, but I think many adults get way too involved in kids' play lives. When I was growing up, I learned to play baseball and football and soccer and whatever else by getting together with other kids in the neighborhood and working it out. Rarely was an adult present at these games, though we could find on anytime we needed one.

Anyway - I'm not trying to hijack this thread. Like many other parents, I have had people tell me my kids are cute and I should get them into modeling or whatever and it just cracks me up. That's not my thing. If it's their thing, they'll discover it when they're older. For now, I just want them to have a happy carefree childhood as free from competition, rivalry, schedules, stress and deadlines as you can get in this world.

 

[southcitymom]

I agree the government doesn't have a right to intercede unless there is abuse.The thing I am concerned about is the message that "just smile" and be quiet. I know it doesn't apply in every case but it does set a precedent for the future.

Children are just that, children. They rely on parental support and parental guidance. JonBenet was especially presented in an unnatural light. No one can tell me that a 6 year is expected to live up to a contrived image.

With that said boys who are recruited for baseball at a young age deserve another consideration. I think we need to let children be children. We cannot expect them to be adults...they aren't.

Well said - and much less wordy than my post saying the same thing!

 

[Love_Mama]

QUOTE from Amity
But we are not talking the "normal" here. We are talking perverse, sick, ill of mind and thought individuals who see things that aren't there.
Heck, my aunt swore that the billboard with our local newscaster's picture on it was staring at her, talking to just her and telling her to start her house on fire so that he could have something to report.
Of course, this was about 8 months before she was finally dx'd as being schizophrenic. But if you listened to her talk (more like rant) you could see she believed that newscaster was talking specifically to her...she believed it with all of her being.
Am I making sense?

Amity.........how old was you Aunt when she was diagnosed with Schizophrenia?

Someone on another forum has suggested that possibly this guy John Karr is either Bipolar or Schizophrenic. I happen to know however that
those are two very different diagnosis.....

This John Karr does seem to have some of the above Schizophrenic tendencies............

Here.............the symptoms.
Schizophrenia.
Someone who has schizophrenia may have any of these symptoms:
• delusions, which means they believe something is real when it isn't; they may think, for example, they are famous or have special powers. They may think that they are guilty of terrible crimes or that other people are controlling their thoughts or are wanting to hurt them
• thought disorder, which means their thoughts become very muddled and hard for anyone else to understand
• hallucinations, which means that they see or hear or smell or feel something that isn't really there. A lot of people who have schizophrenia hear voices which no-one else can hear. They might also talk back to these voices
Having schizophrenia can make people lose interest in everyday living and make it hard for them to talk or show affection or even to eat or dress properly. (This would fit John Karr)....and unless the diagnosis has changed this usually comes on at the about age 16........which is why I asked how old your Aunt was when she was diagnosed.
---------------------
People who have bi-polar affective disorder suffer from extreme changes of mood. People who have this disorder (also called 'manic depressive illness' or 'manic depression'), can switch from being very 'manic' to being very 'depressed'. When 'manic' or 'high' they feel very happy and powerful, and may take unusual risks. When there are very 'depressed' they have little energy or enthusiasm.
This is usually diagnosed later on. Not nearly as severe as Schizophrenia!

xxxooooo
mama

 

[Hyatt]

You raise some interesting points, Hyatt. What to do about the over-sexualization of children? At these young ages, it is intrisically fantasy play if they are left to their own devices.

Dress up is one of the play activities of choice in my household. My 6-year-old son and 4-year-old son dress up constantly - as cowboys, pirates, superheroes, etc...and they always want to have a weapon. We have two huge chests of dress up clothes with little regard to gender roles. For example, there is a Survivor buff that they both like to wear in mini-skirt fashion. Still, their tastes run more towards male-stuff. And the male costumes they like to dress up in are not sexual in nature.

By comparison, my 6-year-old goddaughter loves to dress up in all types of beauty pageant/ fairy princess wear complete with boas, makeup, fingernail and toenail polsih and glitter and jewels and crowns. Are her feminine choices somehow more sexualized just because they are female? One of my goddaughter's best friend's is a tomboy and chooses the sorts of costumes my sons do - is she somehow sexualized less than my goddaughter because of these choices?

All interesting questions. My parents raised 3 girls. I was never a girly girl but I desparately wanted to wear makeup and have my ears pierced because the rule in my house was "not until you're 13." When I was 13, I got my ears pierced and started to wear makeup, but those things didn't last long because I wasn't into it even though I had wanted it so desparately because it was taboo. But even without those things, I wanted to be older than I was and I wanted to be perceived as older than I was from about the age of 10 on.

I'm not going to throw stones at the beauty pageant world from the standpoint of over-sexualization of young girls. I will say that I personally find it creepy. But I also find it creepy to read about six year old boys crying on a Little League field with overzealous parents on the sidelines.

It may not be a popular opinion, but I think many adults get way too involved in kids' play lives. When I was growing up, I learned to play baseball and football and soccer and whatever else by getting together with other kids in the neighborhood and working it out. Rarely was an adult present at these games, though we could find on anytime we needed one.

Anyway - I'm not trying to hijack this thread. Like many other parents, I have had people tell me my kids are cute and I should get them into modeling or whatever and it just cracks me up. That's not my thing. If it's their thing, they'll discover it when they're older. For now, I just want them to have a happy carefree childhood as free from competition, rivalry, schedules, stress and deadlines as you can get in this world.

Sounds to me like you're doing a great job as a mom. And I had to laugh when you mentioned the "weapon" thing because although I have been a steadfast pacifist and abhor all types of violence (verbal etc.) when my son was little, his focus was frequently "weapon, weapon, weapon", so much so that it became a bit of a joke between us. I don't like to see little girls with nail polish etc. BUT I can hardly be judgmental about that since I never had any daughters and I dislike weapons MORE than nail polish and yet there was my son during the Teenage Ninja turtle period (and beyond) going "weapon, weapon, weapon" which I never got used to, all the while avoiding making his life difficult because of that fixation. It ain't easy.

The problem is that "it takes a village to raise a child" and that the media constantly shapes our kids' interests through toys, games, TV shows, clothing etc. etc. So all I could really do was express my opinion and present it as such while attempting the hard balancing act of respecting his tastes and yet doing my best to point out certain problems I saw with the fads. I did a lot of "some people think this" and "some people think that".

But MY opinion is that NO ONE gains through sex-typing. IMO these pageants DO reinforce it. How many people would feel confortable having their sons in beauty pageants? Maybe some, but much fewer.

I'm not sure that Linda Arndt was right about JR being the perp (I'm not sure she was wrong either) but I DO think that I agree with her that there was a generally problematic family dynamic here and I think that it had a lot to do with sex-typing and outdated gender-conditioning notions. So, did the son here perhaps also behave in a rough sex-typed way and unintentionally put an end to his sister's life? Who knows...

One thing is for sure ... I think these issues on this thread are related to this case and may in fact be at the root of my interest in it. And then along comes John Karr, who, although in my books, did NOT commit this crime, waltzes into the story .... with purported .... gender issues. Interesting, don't you think?

JMO