Paint tote

[UKGuy]

yes,(and not to take either side),but if she was wiped off after the size 12's were put on her,then come the questions,1-why was she wiped down twice,and 2-why did the stager not care if there was blood on the underwear,after being wiped down yet again? Or did the fact the underwear said Wed. on them override the need to get rid of all traces of blood? Some things had to have priority in the stager's mind,of course.
I say I think she had to have been wiped down at least once before the underwear was placed on her,as blood was shown to have been wiped from her thigh.

JMO8778,
I think the forensic evidence suggests that JonBenet was wiped down twice. Speculating, I reckon she was wiped down a second time, to prevent any blood staining spoiling the staging, and and just to make sure, she was wrapped in the white blanket in case there was further staining. imo the blanket has nothing to do with maternal care, after all, the stager either killed or was involved in JonBenet's death. The purpose of the wine-cellar is to stage a crime-scene not effect flourishes of post-mortem affection.

Dr. Ronald Wright, director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine, reviewed JonBenet's autopsy report, and he suggested that the presence of "birefringent (shiny) foreign material'' in JonBenet's vaginal tract could be consistent with someone penetrating her while wearing rubber gloves.?

But in his book Steve Thomas writes

Then we had the experts assess why a tiny splinter had been found in JonBenet's vagina. The cellulose splinter was believed to have come from the same paintbrush that had been used to make the garrote

So Steve Thomas advances upon Dr. Ronald Wright's speculation and rules out rubber gloves.

The Wednesday feature may simply be part of the staging e.g. this is why we place so much emphasis on it, but in reality we do not know what day-of-the-week underwear, if any, JonBenet was wearing to the White's. Note that in his book Steve Thomas never revealed if any of the underwear taken from JonBenet's underwear drawer, or her bedroom were Wednesday day-of-the-week underwear, let alone size-6? e.g. are they missing? Then we have the Ramsey's belatedly returning size-12 underwear, so patently both sides know the underwear matters?


OK so we have a few facts e.g. JonBenet's size-12 underwear had blood stains, that a tiny splinter had been found in JonBenet's vagina. So it appears that the person doing the staging digitally penetrated JonBenet, thus transferring the splinter, causing JonBenet to bleed, which results in a 2nd wipe down. This appears to be a staged sexual assault?

The other interpretation is that JonBenet was both digitally penetrated and sexually assaulted with the paintbrush handle?


Now if you are staging a sexual assault why bother wiping away any blood?

In both cases the stager knows JonBenet is still alive since she is bleeding, so did the garroting really come first, or did a bona-fide sexual assault precede the garroting?



.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

SD,

Extortion, kidnapping, sexual assault on a child, and child murder are the height of immorality. So there's a vast moral difference between victimizing a child and entering a child in a beauty pageant, which isn't even illegal. There's really no connection between the two. See what I mean?

If you think JBR didn't struggle against the garrote, you could be ignoring the case facts. According to the autopsy report, she had the necessary injuries to support the idea that she was breathing while being strangled. Unless you know of any cases where someone willingly allowed themselves to be strangled to death, its safe to assume JBR was struggling.

The problem for RDI IS the lack of a smoking gun, SD. If the DA had been able to place the crime scene on the R's, there would have been an arrest. No arrest means no smoking gun. Need more examples? Tape or paintbrush fragments, cord fibers, etc. found anywhere not consistent with R testimony? Or how about three ABFDE CDE's agreeing PR wrote the note? The list of smoking guns that didn't goes on and on.

I can't believe you asked what's consistantly brutal. Its as if you don't want to really accept the case facts.

Brutality: The RN author threatens to decapitate a small child to her parents, a threat unheard of in any modern crime. JBR is ultimately found strangled by cord deeply embedded in her neck, concluded to have been done while she was alive, and struck over the head with a blunt instrument. During the attack, she was apparently sexually assaulted and possibly stungunned also.

 

[BBB167893]

SD,

Extortion, kidnapping, sexual assault on a child, and child murder are the height of immorality. So there's a vast moral difference between victimizing a child and entering a child in a beauty pageant, which isn't even illegal. There's really no connection between the two. See what I mean?

If you think JBR didn't struggle against the garrote, you could be ignoring the case facts. According to the autopsy report, she had the necessary injuries to support the idea that she was breathing while being strangled. Unless you know of any cases where someone willingly allowed themselves to be strangled to death, its safe to assume JBR was struggling.

The problem for RDI IS the lack of a smoking gun, SD. If the DA had been able to place the crime scene on the R's, there would have been an arrest. No arrest means no smoking gun. Need more examples? Tape or paintbrush fragments, cord fibers, etc. found anywhere not consistent with R testimony? Or how about three ABFDE CDE's agreeing PR wrote the note? The list of smoking guns that didn't goes on and on.

I can't believe you asked what's consistantly brutal. Its as if you don't want to really accept the case facts.

Brutality: The RN author threatens to decapitate a small child to her parents, a threat unheard of in any modern crime. JBR is ultimately found strangled by cord deeply embedded in her neck, concluded to have been done while she was alive, and struck over the head with a blunt instrument. During the attack, she was apparently sexually assaulted and possibly stungunned also.

I agree, it is an immoral act, to say the least. But good people have been known to do bad things, not to get too philisophical.

No connection between the two? I'm not so sure about that. I know plenty of people who think Patsy killed JB over her whining about pageants. Think about it this way: Patsy was a pageant girl. So were her sisters. All at their mother's behest. If IF JB was rebelling, Patsy MIGHT have taken it as an insult to family traditions. People have been killed for a lot less.

If you think JBR didn't struggle against the garrote, you could be ignoring the case facts. According to the autopsy report, she had the necessary injuries to support the idea that she was breathing while being strangled. Unless you know of any cases where someone willingly allowed themselves to be strangled to death, its safe to assume JBR was struggling.

As usual, Holdon, there you go twisting my words. Breathing is not the same as struggling. Where are the marks where the cord twisted and scraped across the neck? Where are the mounds of flesh under her nails that SHOULD be there if she was pulling at it, like Lou Smit suggests, IN THE FACE, I might add of several forensic pathologists who say that she was already unconscious from the head blow and could not have fought. And I'll give 'em to ya for free:

Werner Spitz: "Someone took time to stage strangulation or sexual assault after she was unconscious."

Ronald Wright: 20 to 60 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation.

And that's just two of them. I'm sure I can find others.

I can't believe you asked what's consistantly brutal. Its as if you don't want to really accept the case facts.

it's not just me asking. FBI guys who've been at it thirty years said the same. I'm not the one who can't see the truth when it's spitting in my eye.

Brutality: The RN author threatens to decapitate a small child to her parents, a threat unheard of in any modern crime. JBR is ultimately found strangled by cord deeply embedded in her neck, concluded to have been done while she was alive, and struck over the head with a blunt instrument. During the attack, she was apparently sexually assaulted and possibly stungunned also

Yes, the note did say that she would be beheaded. But that is CLEARLY an attempt to add the touches of Islamic terror that seem to hold much appeal for you. Even before 9/11, it was common knowledge that they behead hostages in the Middle East. Don't forget, the name Osama bin Laden was just starting to be heard publically in 1996.

Was it a real sexual assault? The FBI seems to think it wasn't. They said it was staging. Holdon, I long time ago I learned to have respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom. And if there really was an intruder, they wouldn't have to stage it to LOOK like an intruder.

The problem for RDI IS the lack of a smoking gun, SD. If the DA had been able to place the crime scene on the R's, there would have been an arrest.

You just nailed it, Holdon. The DA bears the sole blame for this.

No arrest means no smoking gun.

I've studied true crime WAY too long to buy that one, Holdon.

Need more examples? Tape or paintbrush fragments, cord fibers, etc. found anywhere not consistent with R testimony?

If you want an example where the Rs' statements don't match up, there's one I'm particularly fond of. In 2000, Patsy was told flat-out that HER fibers were found in areas they should not have been if the Ramseys did not own the tape or cord. She had no answer. Two full years later, she gave a story. She said that the fibers got there when she lay on JB that morning.

Nice story, but it doesn't wash, according to her own husband, who wrote in their book that he'd already covered JB so Patsy wouldn't see her. As Wendy Murphy said, "Patsy's story would require flat-out magic."

Or how about three ABFDE CDE's agreeing PR wrote the note?

Oh, you want three ABFDE CDEs? You certainly came to the right place!

Chet Ubowski is one. From what I can tell, he did the most extensive examination.

From PMPT: "He had told his boss, Pete Mang, that his gut told him it was her handwriting. (page 740 pb)

Also, according to FOXNEWS, Ubowski said that of all the nearly 100 people whose writing he analyzed, only one showed indications of matching, and that was Patsy. He is supposed to have said that only bleeding ink from the pen and the disguised letters kept him from positively identifying her.

Larry Ziegler is one also. He said it's her.

Gideon Epstein is not just a member of the ABFDE, he is THE member. Even people who don't like him admit that his ability and ethics are impeccable. he said he was 100% certain.

How's that?

Like I said, knowledge and wisdom, Holdon. You know, or ought to know, that in domestic homicides, the case is almost NEVER decided on the forensic evidence. It's decided by getting one family member to rat out the other one. And I'm not just saying that. That's what the prosecution in the Lisa Steinberg case said. And they did it. They got Hedda Nusbaum to roll on her husband.

In the Aisenberg case, they asked a federal prosecutor, and she said exactly what I'm telling you now: break one of them.

And how do they do it? They throw them in jail until one cracks. The DA wouldn't do that. His Great Society naivete would not allow him to, as he put it, "charge on probable cause."

So, my hypothesis makes no never-mind to you at all, huh?

 

[JMO8778]

I agree, it is an immoral act, to say the least. But good people have been known to do bad things, not to get too philisophical.

No connection between the two? I'm not so sure about that. I know plenty of people who think Patsy killed JB over her whining about pageants. Think about it this way: Patsy was a pageant girl. So were her sisters. All at their mother's behest. If IF JB was rebelling, Patsy MIGHT have taken it as an insult to family traditions. People have been killed for a lot less.

I think I recall there was a pageant mom from Shreveport,LA,who took the time to write to Thomas and said 'you need to take a closer look at J&P'.So I have to wonder what it was she witnessed that caused her say that.It doesn't sound like something minor.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

As usual, Holdon, there you go twisting my words. Breathing is not the same as struggling. Where are the marks where the cord twisted and scraped across the neck? Where are the mounds of flesh under her nails that SHOULD be there if she was pulling at it, like Lou Smit suggests, IN THE FACE, I might add of several forensic pathologists who say that she was already unconscious from the head blow and could not have fought. And I'll give 'em to ya for free:

I can understand why RDI would wonder about no self-inflicted injuries caused by JBR pulling at her garrote. The idea that JBR's hands were free the entire time is an RDI myth. Sometimes supported by the ridiculous notion that just because the 2nd ligature was found loose, that it was never tight or never able to restrain. RDI claims the 2nd ligature was just a prop, and uses this claim as fact to support other arguments such as the one you just made.

IDI isn't having this problem of what JBR's hands were able or not able to do. This is because IDI sees the garrote and 2nd ligature and unknown blunt instrument as real weapons with a real effect, the outcome of which we all have observed and is inarguable.

I'd imagine JBR's hands were placed in the second ligature, before she was even removed from her bedroom.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Oh, you want three ABFDE CDEs? You certainly came to the right place!

Chet Ubowski is one. From what I can tell, he did the most extensive examination.

From PMPT: "He had told his boss, Pete Mang, that his gut told him it was her handwriting. (page 740 pb)

Also, according to FOXNEWS, Ubowski said that of all the nearly 100 people whose writing he analyzed, only one showed indications of matching, and that was Patsy. He is supposed to have said that only bleeding ink from the pen and the disguised letters kept him from positively identifying her.

Larry Ziegler is one also. He said it's her.

Gideon Epstein is not just a member of the ABFDE, he is THE member. Even people who don't like him admit that his ability and ethics are impeccable. he said he was 100% certain.

How's that?

Things aren't that simple, SD.

I said 'three ABFDE CDE's agreeing PR wrote the note.' You said Ubowski is one when he isn't. Ubowski never agreed that PR wrote the note, so you'll need a source for your claim.

Four ABFDE examiners were consulted by BPD independently. They aren't hires by either camp. Unlike many hires, they had access to the original RN, and NOT ONE agreed PR was the author. NOT EVEN ONE agreed she wrote the note.

Richard Dusak
Chester A. Ubowski
Leonard Speckin
Edwin F. Alford, Jr.

 

[JMO8778]

Personally I don't see how anybody can look at that utterly ridiculous,made-up nonsense and not realize that PATSY wrote it.It's absolutely the STUPIDEST piece of work I've ever read,and is obviously NOT the work of a foreigner or a criminal;NO WONDER the R's put in there not to contact the FBI,the FBI knows a fake RN when they see one-just as RW did,and the R's didn't want them around.
Yes,notice I said the R's.I'm familiar w. dictation, and ever since I first read the note,something has nagged at me ever since.It's the fact that I think *two ppl had input into that note.If you ask me,I think JR had a heck of a lot of input into the note,while Patsy did the actual writing and wording.
I suspect maybe there are those in LE who believe that as well, but it's not put out there for the public;reason being I suspect there is a heck of a lot of evidence on JR that isn't being released,maybe even a bombshell or more of evidence on him.And maybe someday that bomb will drop on him,so to speak.

 

[DeeDee249]

JBR wasn't struggling during strangulation. She was alive, to be sure, but wasn't conscious, because the head blow came first. There was perfect print of her lips on the tape, and the coroner made note of the fact that the ligature furrow around her neck was nearly horizontal, with little to no deviation. That meant she did not struggle. The petechiae above and below the furrow were NOT scratch marks from her fingernails. That is another lie that has somehow become "fact" to some people. There was absolutely NOTHING to indicate that the cord had ever been around both wrists, and it was never tightly tied around the wrist it was found on. There is no evidence of a furrow or bruising on her wrists.
The pageants could be viewed by some as child abuse, but although they do not foster healthy development in young girls, that is a personal opinion and does not mean that all parents who have their children in the pageant system are abusive or have unhealthy relationships with their daughters.
However, I feel that PR DID have an unhealthy relationship with her daughter, and her (and Nedra's) obsession with the Miss America pageant and their insistence in pushing JBR to that end (with all of the relentless dance lessons etc) were abusive IMO. In sexualizing such a young child, they wanted to project an image in the judge's eyes of what JBR WILL be one day. I don't feel they were cultivating that sexual imagery to have her appeal to pedophiles, though that it exactly what it does. They were pushing her potential, with no regard to the fact that at age 6, she couldn't possibly be aware of what was occurring.

 

[DeeDee249]

Personally I don't see how anybody can look at that utterly ridiculous,made-up nonsense and not realize that PATSY wrote it.It's absolutely the STUPIDEST piece of work I've ever read,and is obviously NOT the work of a foreigner or a criminal;NO WONDER the R's put in there not to contact the FBI,the FBI knows a fake RN when they see one-just as RW did,and the R's didn't want them around.
Yes,notice I said the R's.I'm familiar w. dictation, and ever since I first read the note,something has nagged at me ever since.It's the fact that I think *two ppl had input into that note.If you ask me,I think JR had a heck of a lot of input into the note,while Patsy did the actual writing and wording.
I suspect maybe there are those in LE who believe that as well, but it's not put out there for the public;reason being I suspect there is a heck of a lot of evidence on JR that isn't being released,maybe even a bombshell or more of evidence on him.And maybe someday that bomb will drop on him,so to speak.

I absolutely agree that two people had input into the note- JR and PR, with PR physically writing the note. I think many people might share this view. NO way JR wasn't involved at that point, and no way PR did it all herself.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I absolutely agree that two people had input into the note- JR and PR, with PR physically writing the note. I think many people might share this view. NO way JR wasn't involved at that point, and no way PR did it all herself.

Experts aside, my own IDI-ness aside, I think anyone who pens 2 1/2 pages of complete sentences is going to be pegged very quickly by forensic document examiners. Therefore, the fact that LE was not able to readily build a consensus among CDE's that PR wrote the note significantly lowers the odds that PR wrote it. Of the billions of other possibilities, there's probably several other people that are going to be a better match. Only one of them is the author.

 

[DeeDee249]

PR likely wrote the note with her left hand. She was known to be ambidextrous. Even with that, there is no doubt in my mind (as well as most who have seen the handwriting comparisons) that PR wrote the note.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

PR's handwriting is much nicer looking than the RN. Some analysts said the differences are due to disguised handwriting, another RDI claim that just can't be proven but sure comes in handy to explain clear differences in the handwriting styles between PR and the RN author.

A better explanation for the poor quality of the writing lines probably has to do with ESL (English as 2nd Language). This would simultaneously explain the common English words that were misspelled.

 

[JMO8778]

I absolutely agree that two people had input into the note- JR and PR, with PR physically writing the note. I think many people might share this view. NO way JR wasn't involved at that point, and no way PR did it all herself.

I see a lot of things in it that were never addressed by the experts..one,that it was a stall for time.I think they meant for *tomorrow to mean the 27th...Patsy says she comes down the stairs,and 'finds' the note-so *tomorrow is the next day.I'm not sure JR ever thought LE would come and set up shop in his home for so long that morning,if they didn't find the body.Getting the friends there had more than one purpose.

 

[DeeDee249]

I see a lot of things in it that were never addressed by the experts..one,that it was a stall for time.I think they meant for *tomorrow to mean the 27th...Patsy says comes down the stairs,she 'finds' the note-then tomorrow is the next day.I'm not sure JR ever thought LE would come and set up shop in his home for so long that morning,if they didn't find the body.Getting the friends there had more than one purpose.

You bet it did. One of them was contaminating the crime scene. They were even wiping up after the fingerprinting! The Rs also needed to be seen as "victims". So they surrounded themselves with friends and "victim advocates".

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

JBR wasn't struggling during strangulation. She was alive, to be sure, but wasn't conscious, because the head blow came first.There was perfect print of her lips on the tape, and the coroner made note of the fact that the ligature furrow around her neck was nearly horizontal, with little to no deviation. That meant she did not struggle. The petechiae above and below the furrow were NOT scratch marks from her fingernails. That is another lie that has somehow become "fact" to some people. There was absolutely NOTHING to indicate that the cord had ever been around both wrists, and it was never tightly tied around the wrist it was found on. There is no evidence of a furrow or bruising on her wrists.

In bold are your claims, stated as fact. None of these claims are proven by anyone at any time.

The most likely scenario at this point is the cord was applied to JBR's neck, and the 2nd ligature applied to her wrists and legs, before she left the bedroom. This would render her unable to yell or move.

 

[Ames]

In bold are your claims, stated as fact. None of these claims are proven by anyone at any time.

The most likely scenario at this point is the cord was applied to JBR's neck, and the 2nd ligature applied to her wrists and legs, before she left the bedroom. This would render her unable to yell or move.

Wouldn't she have had rope burns on her wrists if this was the case?? Especially, if she were concious while the garotte was being twisted. I have been strangled before...(Read my thread on this board...First Hand Knowledge of What Its Like to Be strangled). Trust me...if her hands were free, she would have had her OWN SKIN under her nails, where she would have shredded the skin on her neck, trying to remove the cord. If her wrists were bound...and she couldn't move, you can bet that she would have rope burn..where she TRIED with all her might to break free....to remove the cord, so that she could breathe. Fighting for your life is a natural instinct.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Absolutely, Ames. Even tiny babies who have been suffocated to death have wounds from struggling - usually their heels are bruised up from kicking and banging their feet in effort to try to get away and catch a breath, and the skin that anchors their lips to the their gums in the front of their mouths gets torn from trying to twist their heads. And I'm talking like a six week old infant here, not even a child old enough to understand they're being asphyxiated.

I don't believe there is any way to strangle a conscious, healthy, active, well-nourished six year old child to death without her leaving some evidence of it on her body in the form of defensive wounds, bruises, abrasions, friction burn, something. But there's nothing like that to be found, indicating she did NOT struggle whatsoever while the cord was tied and yanked tight.

Let's assume this killer really did have JonBenet tied up tighter than she was found - what would the reason possibly be for untying her and leaving her less restrained than she'd been while alive, especially her hands/wrists/arms?

The tape was applied after she was dead or unconscious - the lack of struggle against the tape and trail of bloody mucus running down her face to drip on her shirt tells us that...so why would this killer want to stage the scene to look like her mouth had been taped when it wasn't?

 

[UKGuy]

Absolutely, Ames. Even tiny babies who have been suffocated to death have wounds from struggling - usually their heels are bruised up from kicking and banging their feet in effort to try to get away and catch a breath, and the skin that anchors their lips to the their gums in the front of their mouths gets torn from trying to twist their heads. And I'm talking like a six week old infant here, not even a child old enough to understand they're being asphyxiated.

I don't believe there is any way to strangle a conscious, healthy, active, well-nourished six year old child to death without her leaving some evidence of it on her body in the form of defensive wounds, bruises, abrasions, friction burn, something. But there's nothing like that to be found, indicating she did NOT struggle whatsoever while the cord was tied and yanked tight.

Let's assume this killer really did have JonBenet tied up tighter than she was found - what would the reason possibly be for untying her and leaving her less restrained than she'd been while alive, especially her hands/wrists/arms?

The tape was applied after she was dead or unconscious - the lack of struggle against the tape and trail of bloody mucus running down her face to drip on her shirt tells us that...so why would this killer want to stage the scene to look like her mouth had been taped when it wasn't?

Nuisanceposter,
What intruder, nobody has placed an intruder in the Ramsey household to date?

If her wrists had been tied how come Fleet White never saw them being untied?

JonBenet was whacked on the head elsewhere in the house then brought to the wine-cellar to create a fake crime-scene.

What kidnapper needs to do that when he/she can just walk out the front door?

There was no intruder or kidnapper, one of the three residents in the Ramsey household that night killed JonBenet. A fake crime-scene was constructed, evidence was removed by Pamela Paugh including a cellphone likely used to phone for advice e.g. Bynum. The hint here is what was not done, e.g. no call to Access Graphics parent company invoking corporate security procedures!

 

[DeeDee249]

Actually, Holdon- all of my bold print statements were facts. NO marks on her wrists- fact. No indication of mouth movement on the tape- fact. Conclusion? An unconscious child. If the wrist cords were tight enough to restrain her, there would surely be marks on her wrists.

UKGuy, you are right- it is what WAS NOT done that is highly suspicious.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Actually, Holdon- all of my bold print statements were facts. NO marks on her wrists- fact. No indication of mouth movement on the tape- fact. Conclusion? An unconscious child. If the wrist cords were tight enough to restrain her, there would surely be marks on her wrists.

UKGuy, you are right- it is what WAS NOT done that is highly suspicious.

No, no, and no they're not facts.

Here are some examples of facts:

• There were marks on JBR consistent with stun gun, which if used would render her limbs limp for a period of time, and very weak for a longer period. May explain why there were no wrist marks.
• JBR was a victim of strangulation by garrote, NOT by a shirt or manual strangulation.
• Chronic infiltration is a medical term used to describe a condition on JBR at the time, NOT an implication of prior injury as RDI mistakenly and eagerly quotes out of context, without regard for the coroner. So chronic abuse is another RDI myth.
• No two of the LE consulted CDE's agreed that PR wrote the note. Its a notable failure from IDI point of view.
• The so-called props that were found loose on JBR's wrist and tight around her neck COINCIDENTALLY (for you, SD) would work to move JBR from the bedroom to the basement. In other words, it just so happens that the ligatures would have been an effective weapon in the situation where one was attempting a kidnapping with sleeping household members nearby.