Paint tote

  • #641
The marks were never proven to be stun gun marks; by JR's own refusal to exhume his daughters body- he made certain that the truth about those marks would never be known. To state as fact that they ARE stun gun marks is an outright lie.
There are NO marks on her wrists. That IS a fact.
There were no indications on the tape that her lips or mouth moved. That is a fact.
 
  • #642
The marks were never proven to be stun gun marks; by JR's own refusal to exhume his daughters body- he made certain that the truth about those marks would never be known. To state as fact that they ARE stun gun marks is an outright lie.
There are NO marks on her wrists. That IS a fact.
There were no indications on the tape that her lips or mouth moved. That is a fact.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 
  • #643
There are at least three ways that JBR would not leave ligature marks on her wrists.
  1. she had been stungunned (sorry, but you didn't rule out that possiblity).
  2. she was tied up in a way that she could apply no leverage against the cord because her arms/hands were immobile. For example, her arms/hands tied together high behind her back.
  3. she was tied up in a way that if she were to pull against her restraints, her air supply was cut off.
That she was stungunned seems the most likely scenario, because it would account for lack of marks on her arms, and when combined with the ligatures would put the perp in a position to move JBR without any resistance at all.
 
  • #644
The marks were never proven to be stun gun marks; by JR's own refusal to exhume his daughters body- he made certain that the truth about those marks would never be known. To state as fact that they ARE stun gun marks is an outright lie.
There are NO marks on her wrists. That IS a fact.
There were no indications on the tape that her lips or mouth moved. That is a fact.

Whats your source on this? How do you know there were zero marks on JBR's wrists?
 
  • #645
Oh, God....


Read the autopsy report.

And no, I can't rule out a stun gun- no one can rule it out, actually, because the marks were never fully tested, but that doesn't exclude parental involvement. The Rs did own a video demonstrating how to use a stun gun.
 
  • #646
Oh, God....


Read the autopsy report.

And no, I can't rule out a stun gun- no one can rule it out, actually, because the marks were never fully tested, but that doesn't exclude parental involvement. The Rs did own a video demonstrating how to use a stun gun.

LOL....its like we are going around in circles...isn't it?
 
  • #647
LOL....its like we are going around in circles...isn't it?

Thats why I am just observing and smiling as appropriate. After all is saidand done HOTYH will just start over with the talking points and you will feel like you might as well have saved your breath.:waitasec:
 
  • #648
Things aren't that simple, SD.

I said 'three ABFDE CDE's agreeing PR wrote the note.' You said Ubowski is one when he isn't. Ubowski never agreed that PR wrote the note, so you'll need a source for your claim.

Four ABFDE examiners were consulted by BPD independently. They aren't hires by either camp. Unlike many hires, they had access to the original RN, and NOT ONE agreed PR was the author. NOT EVEN ONE agreed she wrote the note.

Richard Dusak
Chester A. Ubowski
Leonard Speckin
Edwin F. Alford, Jr.

PMPT - Chet Ubowski was prepared to testify. I have told this to you before Holdon. You just refuse to remember it or deal with it.
 
  • #649
PMPT - Chet Ubowski was prepared to testify. I have told this to you before Holdon. You just refuse to remember it or deal with it.

My guess is that Holdon has NO CLUE what PMPT stands for. He probably thinks that its some sort of RDI agency, or something....Posters Making Patsy The (killer).
 
  • #650
Thats why I am just observing and smiling as appropriate. After all is saidand done HOTYH will just start over with the talking points and you will feel like you might as well have saved your breath.:waitasec:

I think that I may just start doing the same, because he has NEVER answered not one of my many, many questions. He/she..just keeps spouting off the same, tired, old theory.
 
  • #651
No, no, and no they're not facts.


  • There were marks on JBR consistent with stun gun, which if used would render her limbs limp for a period of time, and very weak for a longer period. May explain why there were no wrist marks.
  • JBR was a victim of strangulation by garrote, NOT by a shirt or manual strangulation.
  • Chronic infiltration is a medical term used to describe a condition on JBR at the time, NOT an implication of prior injury as RDI mistakenly and eagerly quotes out of context, without regard for the coroner. So chronic abuse is another RDI myth.
  • No two of the LE consulted CDE's agreed that PR wrote the note. Its a notable failure from IDI point of view.
  • The so-called props that were found loose on JBR's wrist and tight around her neck COINCIDENTALLY (for you, SD) would work to move JBR from the bedroom to the basement. In other words, it just so happens that the ligatures would have been an effective weapon in the situation where one was attempting a kidnapping with sleeping household members nearby.

right,they're not facts !
And Dr Werner Spitz says she WAS strangled by her shirt collar FIRST! Just because *you say not doesn't make it so.
You can't just toss away forensic evidence,Hold.Chronic infiltrate means CHRONIC ABUSE.That doesn't necessarily mean it was JR...I'm highly suspect of Patsy's father (because of 911 call on the night of the party on 23rd,his leaving asap on stand-by,and JB's comment that night),and JAR (contents of the suitcase,etc.).I also suspect Patsy did most, if not almost all, of the damage from corporal cleaning.
 
  • #652
PMPT - Chet Ubowski was prepared to testify. I have told this to you before Holdon. You just refuse to remember it or deal with it.

What I'm saying is this: of the four CDE's that were consulted by LE that weren't paid for by RDI or IDI, no two agreed with one another that PR wrote the note. That's just another failure for RDI to deal with. It would've helped RDI if two or more of these CDE's had agreed that PR wrote the note.
 
  • #653
What I'm saying is this: of the four CDE's that were consulted by LE that weren't paid for by RDI or IDI, no two agreed with one another that PR wrote the note. That's just another failure for RDI to deal with. It would've helped RDI if two or more of these CDE's had agreed that PR wrote the note.


There is other evidence that is inconsistent with John and Patsy's account of what happened after they came home on Christmas Day evening:
  • The fingerprints of Patsy and Burke were found on a bowl on a kitchen table from which JonBenet ate pineapple sometime after she arrived home, according to Det. Thomas, something inconsistent with the statements by John and Patsy that JonBenet was asleep when they arrived at home and never woke up. JonBenet had apparently gotten up during the night (or had never gone to sleep) and, with the help of Patsy and/or Burke (either of whom could reach the bowl stored in a cabinet well above the height JonBenet could reach), was served and ate the last food she consumed before she was killed.
  • All five of the fingerprints recovered from the pad on which the ransom note was written that did not belong to policemen, according to Det. Thomas, belonged to Patsy.
  • In a version of the tape of Patsy's call to 911 enhanced by audio technicians consulted by Boulder police, Burke's voice is heard in the background at a time when John and Patsy say Burke was asleep, according to Det. Thomas and author Lawrence Schiller. "Please, what did I do?" Burke asks. "We're not speaking to you," an angry sounding John Ramsey responds. "Help me Jesus, help me Jesus," Patsy says. "What did you find?" Burke pleads.
Moreover, the ransom note was likely written by Patsy, according to Vassar professor and linguistic expert Don Foster (the author of Author Unknown , who unmasked Joe Klein as the author of Primary Colors), David Liebman, former president of the National Association of Document Examiners, and Gideon Epstein, director of the forensics unit of the documents lab at the Immigration and Naturalization Service until he retired in 2000.
"What is your degree of certainty as you sit here today," Ramsey attorney Wood asked Epstein in a deposition last year, "that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note?"
"I am absolutely certain she wrote the note," Epstein replied.
"Is that 60 percent certainty?" Wood asked.
"No, that's 100 percent certainty."

FROM AMES: Well this is good enough for me. Holdon, no offense, but I am going to place you on IGNORE. I am tired of asking you question after question...only to have you dodge them like a bullet. You should at least have the decency to at least TRY to answer the many questions that I have asked you, regarding your ridiculous intruder theory. But apparently you have NO answers...that would be MY guess.
Since you are going to ignore me and my questions..then I am going to ignore you and your "three intruders" (who fed JB pineapple in the basement, because they didn't want her to get hungy on the trip to another country :rolleyes:).
 
  • #654
I tried the "ignore" button too, but you can still see his posts when they are quoted in other posts. It's better just to scroll down past them.
 
  • #655
My guess is that Holdon has NO CLUE what PMPT stands for. He probably thinks that its some sort of RDI agency, or something....Posters Making Patsy The (killer).

Sorry but thats just lame.
 
  • #656
BTW, TY for the 'no wrist marks due to stungun' idea.
 
  • #657
I can understand why RDI would wonder about no self-inflicted injuries caused by JBR pulling at her garrote. The idea that JBR's hands were free the entire time is an RDI myth. Sometimes supported by the ridiculous notion that just because the 2nd ligature was found loose, that it was never tight or never able to restrain.

Well, gee, I guess that whole autopsy report thing can go in the garbage!

Not only that, but at least the RDI can keep their story straight! Lou Smit claims that the wrist ties were real, THEN claims she fought AS the cord was tightened. He can't even make up his OWN mind.

RDI claims the 2nd ligature was just a prop, and uses this claim as fact to support other arguments such as the one you just made.

The lack of marks on her wrists says I'm right.

Things aren't that simple, SD.

They never are, Holdon. That's why it's important to know the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

I said 'three ABFDE CDE's agreeing PR wrote the note.' You said Ubowski is one when he isn't. Ubowski never agreed that PR wrote the note, so you'll need a source for your claim.

I NEVER said Ubowski wasn't a member of ABFDE. And if you want a source, you got the right man.

Here you go:
"The police never bothered to ask Ubowski if he had put his entire analysis of the ransom note into his report. Either way, Ubowski was prepared to say, 'Patsy wrote the note.' The CBI saw this as another missed opportunity" (Schiller 1999a:536-537)

"experts from the CBI presented their evaluations into evidence, including Chet Ubowski. He also told Pete Mang, his boss at the CBI, that his gut told him it was her handwriting" (Schiller 1999a:740)

Four ABFDE examiners were consulted by BPD independently. They aren't hires by either camp. Unlike many hires, they had access to the original RN, and NOT ONE agreed PR was the author. NOT EVEN ONE agreed she wrote the note.

None of them knew she was ambidextrous. And from what Ubowski said in PMPT, most of them made very preliminary examinations.

Experts aside, my own IDI-ness aside, I think anyone who pens 2 1/2 pages of complete sentences is going to be pegged very quickly by forensic document examiners.

Not according to the QDEs I spoke with. At least, not necessarily. Don't forget, we're not talking about an exact science here. It's more often a question of who cannot be ruled out balanced with how much other evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, there is. At least that's what I was told.

Therefore, the fact that LE was not able to readily build a consensus among CDE's that PR wrote the note significantly lowers the odds that PR wrote it.

They didn't ask the right questions, Holdon. Don't forget, this is Alex Hunter we're talking about.

But if that's too cryptic for you, let's get literal here. I know Occam's Razor annoys you, but it is a bit of indispensable wisdom. So let's apply it:

the note was written inside the house by someone who didn't fear getting caught, who knew their way around, who knew where the writing supplies were, on Patsy's paper with Patsy's pen, using close knowledge of family finances and inside jokes, using many of the same grammatical flourishes (Mr., Southern common sense, and hence, gentelmen, etc.) that Patsy seems to like so much, which she even used in a Christmas letter the next year, after she was found to be the only person examined who changed her writing style and is known to write with either hand. Not much change out of sixpence there.

PR's handwriting is much nicer looking than the RN.

How often was she in fear for her life and freedom when she wrote those?

Some analysts said the differences are due to disguised handwriting, another RDI claim that just can't be proven but sure comes in handy to explain clear differences in the handwriting styles between PR and the RN author

Can't be proven? Well, since handwriting analysis is not a science, how can ANY of it be proven? How many analysts have to say "disguised writing" before it sinks in?

There were marks on JBR consistent with stun gun, which if used would render her limbs limp for a period of time, and very weak for a longer period. May explain why there were no wrist marks

No way. This is your lucky day, Holdon. I happen to own one of these little babies. The one I use never leaves marks that neat. And if the killer wanted to keep her quiet, he wouldn't use one unless he was an idiot.

Chronic infiltration is a medical term used to describe a condition on JBR at the time, NOT an implication of prior injury as RDI mistakenly and eagerly quotes out of context, without regard for the coroner. So chronic abuse is another RDI myth.

If "chronic infiltration" was all we had, you'd be right. But we have THE GUY saying that she was in fact, a victim of long-term sexual abuse or at least physical abuse.

The so-called props that were found loose on JBR's wrist and tight around her neck COINCIDENTALLY (for you, SD) would work to move JBR from the bedroom to the basement. In other words, it just so happens that the ligatures would have been an effective weapon in the situation where one was attempting a kidnapping with sleeping household members nearby.

I don't know where you got that idea.

What I'm saying is this: of the four CDE's that were consulted by LE that weren't paid for by RDI or IDI, no two agreed with one another that PR wrote the note.

That's par for the course, though.

It would've helped RDI if two or more of these CDE's had agreed that PR wrote the note.

Granted. But when everything else is brought into play, we are left with only the family. It's like I keep telling you: you have to look at the big picture. All the little twigs make a dam.
 
  • #658
It's kind of like a UFO hovering over an Air Force Base...hmm,wonder where THAT came from??? And some ppl will still try to say it's from another planet.And there will always be a few ppl who are gullible enough to believe that.
 
  • #659
Holdon is about to hate my guts.

He keeps asking for more solid evidence that the tape was applied after JB was dead.

Today's his lucky day!

PMPT, page 306 pb: "Skin trauma would be evident if she had been alive. Applying the tape after her death would not produce noticeable skin markings. Coroner Meyer had not reported any trauma to the skin around JonBenet's mouth."
 
  • #660
Was there more than one "print" of PMPT published?

If not, mine does not reflect your quote above on that page.

Just butting in since it is HOLDEN that you were referring your response to.

And like another poster here, I am still waiting for some answers from him.
 

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