!!!!!!!!!! Patsy did it!!!!!!!!

[Nuisanceposter]

About the phrase "fat cats"...Patsy's mother Nedra Paugh was known to tease John and Patsy about their financial status and call them fat cats as a joke.

 

[Maybe So]

There were pages missing from the writing pad. Practice notes could have been written and discarded by Patsy. The felt pen was also hers. What pedo brings his own pen?

Then where did she discard those extra pages? they were never found in the home.

 

[kelly london]

i have reviewed the ransom note more times than i care to admit. it matches nearly identical to patsy's samples given. i cannot get past this - i keep going back to the point that it was an inside job.

 

[Honibugs]

This might be a stretch, but worth considering. Do you all think that John Mark Karr could be so obsessed with Jon Benet that he was trying to act like Patsy Ramsey, dressing like her and studying her behavior and the way she talks and writes; and then this ransom note appears to be from her because of his obsession?

 

[kayebee]

Then where did she discard those extra pages? they were never found in the home.

There's all sorts of ways to destroy paper so that it won't be found. I know this is one of Smits points--why weren't the other practice pages found? Aha! The intruder must have taken them away with him!

What would you do with a paper that you didn't want found? Think about it for a minute. If you really did not want the paper or any evidence of the paper found, how would you get rid of it? I can think of a half dozen ways off the top of my head, but the first one that comes to mind is burning it and washing the ashes down a sink.

Or I could stuff it in a mailing envelope, address it to my attorney, and put it in my briefcase along with other business papers, where it probably would not look out of place at all.

And the fact that the Boulder Police, who bungled every aspect of this investigation, didn't find the practice pages doesn't mean they weren't there the day of the crime and gotten rid of at some later point, to who knows where.

I wanted to get back to your original point about the seeming disparity between the ransom note and the condition of the body. I asked a similar question on another thread (Why bother to write a ransom note that points to an outsider committing the crime and then "discover" the body in the house, which points suspicion right back on the family? Someone answered my question along the lines of "because it was taking the police too long to find it" or something like that and I think that's probably why.) I think the reason why you see such "cognitive dissonance" between the ransom note and the body is because it wasn't done by one person, it was done by two. One person wrote the ransom note and another person staged (or hid and then brought out of hiding) the body. That's why they are so disparate, why they don't feel as though they belong to the same crime: two people, assigned two different "jobs" did them separately.

Karen

 

[Wrinkles]

Hello Kelly London,

You wrote:
"i have reviewed the ransom note more times than i care to admit. it matches nearly identical to patsy's samples given. i cannot get past this - i keep going back to the point that it was an inside job."

This is one of the most difficult things for me to ignore or try to work around (coupled with other questionable things which can't be ignored or explained away.)

Wouldn't it be curious if the same handwriting expert, who had Patsy write the samples that were compared, asked about 5000 people to write the same samples, with the same instructions, and then they compared all of those samples in the same fashion? Of course, this would have to disclude anyone who had ever studied the ransom note or "practiced" trying to write it out before (as an exact match) - although, it would be interesting to see some of these purposely fed into the study for test analyses.

I'm sure that there are some that are great at plagiarizing, but I just can't imagine, even if I practiced for a long time, that I could pull off all the matches that were found between Patsy's samples and the ransom note.

I looked at JMKs yearbook text and immediately saw the blazing differences, as well as a few understandable similarities (i.e. people who print their a's in one way or another.) Then...there is a consideration of the way in which certain things were phrased or noted, i.e. (fat cat) or SBTC (as pointed out in one of our poster's siglines - something about the "competition", I believe.) I would really like to see the samples that they had Patty write, in order to do the comparison - as well as learn of the instructions for making the samples.

Another thing... What are the statistics/chances that the murderer (and/or person who wrote the RN) could "possibly" have had a writing style found so incredibly close to Patsy's? My guess is that it would have to be millions to 1, but that is merely an uneducated guess, I admit. I would like to hear a true handwriting analyst address that point.

No... I can't get past the RN either. What it means in terms of theory about JBRs death, I don't know exactly, but I can't get past seeing Patsy's hand in that RN. I can't excuse away all of the very strong similarities in the comparisons. On the other hand, if the above 5000 person experiment were done...I'd be very interested to rejudge what I can or can't get past.

The question I have is "Why?" Why "would she" or "did she" write the RN? Did she find her daughter dead, think that they would become suspects, and she felt frantic - thus staged just the RN? OR was this an inside job and total staging?

Someone posted that anyone who thought that Patsy didn't write that note would have to be delusional. Unless I can see a study proving other massive similarities, I have to admit, I feel like I would have to be delusional to cry "coincidence" in this situation. I had no interest in believing Patsy wrote the note or not, but I can't get past the similarities found. Without further "proofs" that could intellectually push me in another direction - I remain thinking Patsy wrote the RN, but, really, "Why?" (the latter question being rhetorical, as we can certainly drum up many reasons why.)

W

 

[BBB167893]

"Look, I see the obvious similarity between her writing and the note but sheesh, how does a human being see them and jump to the conclusion that she had to have been responsible for her daughter's death? Seriously...i am glad some of you are not in the legal system because many people would probably go to jail over some lame evidence like this."

You're right, legally. I doesn't prove murder. It only proves she wrote the note.

"People need to look at the facts. Fact is they have had almost 10 years to tie this to the Ramseys and never could despite the fact they seemed to think it was them. If this was such an open/shut case like sooooo many here imply then why on earth wouldn't they have arrested them for it?"

Glad to answer! Observe:

1) The DA's office. When this one got dropped on Hunter, he had things pretty good. Status quo for almost thirty years. No one rocks the boat. He spent his time plea-bargaining minor cases. He didn't want this. He was cruising toward an easy retirement. He set up a definition of beyond a reasonable doubt that NO ONE could meet! He gave the Ramseys SO MUCh evidence that the FBI was aghast and said he was a fool. He was BUSINESS partners with them! And he was weak. The police wanted to arrest the Ramseys, let them stew in jail for a while, and see which one cracked first. That is a STANDARD ploy in cases like this. He wouldn't do it. Too bad.
He surrounded himself with people who were more like defense attorneys than prosecutors. Trip DeMuth, before ANY evidence was in, decided that the Ramseys couldn't do it. Why? Because he couldn't do it. That kind of thinking has NO PLACE in LE offices. I can forgive the average person for that kind of naivete, but he should KNOW better! One week before Karr's arrest, he said that just because a ten-month-old was dead with 28 fractures, it doesn't mean murder. I KID YOU NOT! This man openly mocked the police presentation of evidence at the FBI meeting. Trip has a thing about "witch hunts." He said the cops were on a witch hunt agianst the Ramseys, a witch hunt against the mother who beat that 10-month-old to death, and now he's afraid of a witch hunt against the DA. That sounds like a DEFENSE attorney talking, like he just stepped out of a Perry Mason episode. None of them had any real expertise with Grand Juries.

Have you read V's Fosterama? It shows that Hunter was undercutting his own WITNESSES! How much worse can you get?

When Keenan (now Lacy took over), it was worse. She had wanted to go after Santa Bill McReynolds from day one. She was biased in the favor of the Ramseys because of their status. She has so much as said so. Lacy is known as a radical feminist who lets her belief in women's innocence cloud her reason. She demonstrated that in the U of CO case. Duke before Duke! She actually chastised Tom Haney for being too tough on Patsy during the '98 interviews. WHAT?! Number one, Haney was using standard techniques. Two, if you look at the tape, he's being perfectly calm! No threats, no intimidation. He's very calmly giving her a chance to explain the evidence. SHE'S the one cursing and jumping around and acting like she's got a scorpion in her panties! What was LACY watching?!
2) Money. Yeah, I know, "Oh, Dave, that's so cheap," but it's true. if this were a regular, blue-collar family like mine, they would be in prison this very day, right or wrong. This was a weak Da's office. No one really disputes that. They were used to handling indigent non-whites with public defenders, not a former Miss West Virginia whose husband is loaded and whose lawyer owns half the state! Who can hire their own experts! How many of us could do that?

COME ON, HOW MANY!?

That was a big part of it: John was able to hire an army of lawyers and PR people and PIs to keep him out of prison. You don't have to take my word for it. Robert Ressler, profiler extraordinaire, said the same. Heck, John Ramsey admitted that he hired them to keep him out of jail! When I was a kid, I was taught the Pledge of Allegiance. That part about justice for all should MEAN something. But there's one set of rules for the rich, one for the rest of us.
3) Specifics. When you have a case where there is evidence that points to both people, you as a prosecutor have to decide who did what. You HAVE to. You can't say "one did it, the other helped, you decide." Can't do that. They never could. One of them (Hofstrom I think) said "So what if she wrote the note? Doesn't mean she killed her daughter." Sad as it is to admit, he's RIGHT! It only proves she wrote the note.
4) The idea that a parent could do this rocks the comfort zone for too many people. Who wants to think that the Girl Scout Den Mother is a murderer? That's what did in the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury looked at the autopsy photos, and despite everything we know about murdering parents and despite all the evidence, they decided, based on NOTHING but emotion and naivete, that no parent could do this. You don't have to take my word for that. I can prove they did that.
Quote:
The pictures were so horrible that the jurors felt it was absolutely inconceivable that any mother on Earth could have been capable of doing such a thing to their own child.


But wait! Here is FBI agent Ron Walker, who was there that morning:
Quote:
Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children.


Is that good enough for anyone?

An arrest was never a question in this case.

Chief Beckner: "Arrest them."

FBI: "Arrest them."

Dream Team Lawyers: "Arrest them."

And on and on. But the DA wouldn't go for it. Do you like the show "Law & Order?" It my favorite. Those DAs work WITH the cops. "Find out this," or "find out that," or "bring me some evidence of this." None of that here.

"So let me get this straight...you think writing a note in the handwriting of someone living there will help prove their innocence rather than get many to have concerns of their guilt? Okaaaaaaay."

How clearly do you think this person was thinking, anyway? Hindsight's 20/20.

"Can anyone tell me why the Ramseys would not have made their "staging" more consistent?"

I can! Staging is NEVER consistent. That's how they KNOW it's staging! The difference between what a real criminal mind knows and what a person THINK a real criminal knows is the difference between night and day.

"SuperDave, ANYONE who is capable of writing can write a ransom note. Whether that person is pedophile, or not, if they can write, they can write a ransom note. It's not impossible---so although I love the "if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" quote, it completely doesn't apply to your statement.

Now, if all pedophiles could not read or write, then YES, you would be correct in stating the pedophiles don't write notes, and you could call it impossible. But that isn't the case, is it?"

You don't understand. Pedophile kidnappers are motivated by lust. Ransom kidnappers are motivated by greed.

"but the original question was why would the Ramseys stage a sexual molestation but leave a ransom note with a totally different angle to it?"

Because that's what people THINK a ransom note sounds like. Too much television.

"Can't we let her rest in peace? If she had murdered in daughter she would be in jail."

I guess OJ must be innocent, then.

"She didn't appear smart enough to outsmart LE."

That's what the lawyers are for.

"Besides, she's dead. Isn't that what all you RDI's have always wanted?"

That was LOW, stonewall.

"If any expert at all had proven she wrote it she'd have died in prison. They couldn't."

Ten experts said she did. The DA didn't want to go for it. That's why she didn't go up.

"Then where did she discard those extra pages? they were never found in the home."

Actually, they were in the trashbasket.

 

[lilpony]

What do you guys think of this statement, that my sister said to me?
She said if Patsy or John killed JonBenet. That Patsy would have made that statement, because she was on her death bed. My sister said, that she would not have wanted to take this to her grave. She would have asked for forgiveness, before she died. Whatcha all think?

 

[wenchie]

I think that Patsy would never have admitted what she did under any circumstances, and she wouldn't have left her son to deal with a deathbed confession.

I'm betting that she probably privately asked God to forgive her immediately after the killing, and that she believes that he did forgive her.

 

[BBB167893]

We have no idea whether or not she did, lilpony. Towards the end, she did say something like "I can't take it back."

 

[Peter Hamilton]

lilpony--No Way would she confess--if she did then JR would be implicated and he would go to prison--and her son would then be known as the son of parents who were child killers--she would RUIN their lives if she confessed

 

[lilpony]

I think that Patsy would never have admitted what she did under any circumstances, and she wouldn't have left her son to deal with a deathbed confession.

I'm betting that she probably privately asked God to forgive her immediately after the killing, and that she believes that he did forgive her.

I don't agree with my sister either. I don't think she would have let that secret slip out, not a chance. Thats of course if Patsy did it.

 

[lilpony]

lilpony--No Way would she confess--if she did then JR would be implicated and he would go to prison--and her son would then be known as the son of parents who were child killers--she would RUIN their lives if she confessed

I agree!!

I'm a fence sitter though. I do not know enough information, to say who did this. I need to read, read, read!

 

[wenchie]

Patsy could have easily put the practice note pieces, duct tape roll and other things right in her purse - knowing that they'd eventually be asked to leave the house and that no one would dare search a grieving parent.

 

[wenchie]

I don't agree with my sister either. I don't think she would have let that secret slip out, not a chance. Thats of course if Patsy did it.

Maybe your sister is assuming that Patsy was a "real" Christian.

 

[lilpony]

Maybe your sister is assuming that Patsy was a "real" Christian.

She thinks she would tell, so she could die in peace. Her way of asking for forgiveness.

Maybe I will invite my sister over here. I will think about it.:crazy:

 

[kayebee]

"Then where did she discard those extra pages? they were never found in the home."

Actually, they were in the trashbasket.

I thought the practice note was found (was it ever revealed what was written on the practice note? I thought this was the possible 'unknown evidence' that might link Karr to the crime). Weren't there also pages missing from the pad, between the practice note and the ransom note that were never recovered?

Not sure where I read that, so unfortunately I can't provide a link.

Karen

 

[MysteryAddict]

Patsy could have easily put the practice note pieces, duct tape roll and other things right in her purse - knowing that they'd eventually be asked to leave the house and that no one would dare search a grieving parent.

You are right.

I bet Patsy left the house with a good sized purse.

 

[TexMex]

Patsy could have easily put the practice note pieces, duct tape roll and other things right in her purse - knowing that they'd eventually be asked to leave the house and that no one would dare search a grieving parent.

Hi wenchie

Patsy also could have easily put the body of a six year old in the car, driven to a State park, dumpster at some apartments and disposed of it--then called 911.

I do think the Ramsey arrogance was viewed as guilty behavior by the police who realized they'd blown protecting the crime scene.

 

[wenchie]

Hi wenchie

Patsy also could have easily put the body of a six year old in the car, driven to a State park, dumpster at some apartments and disposed of it--then called 911.

I do think the Ramsey arrogance was viewed as guilty behavior by the police who realized they'd blown protecting the crime scene.

Then she would have been busted for sure. Her husband may have woken up, there would have been footprints in the snow, the neighbors might have seen or heard the car leaving, evidence or cadaver scent could have been left in the car, and LE could have felt the hood of the car and known it had been driven lately.

Besides that.......I don't think that even Patsy could have dumped her daughter in a shallow grave or at the side of the road somewhere. Her actions with the staging (Jonbenet's favorite blanket, the heart in her hand) show that she had affection for her daughter (it just wasn't as strong as her temper was, IMO).