Patsy's clothes and Showers

  • #21
Nova said:
I hear the rich are different than the rest of us, but I can't imagine anyone letting a broken window go without repair. In Colorado. With small children in the house. When a mere word to LHP or PR or a contractor would have gotten it fixed.
I agree. With double glazing the chances of getting a broken window are significantly reduced, but if I had a broken window which I KNEW an adult could easily climb through (and the Ramseys knew John had climbed through it - therefore a burglar could too), I'd be guarding it day and night until it was fixed. I also don't understand the concept of Patsy asking LHP/Mervin to fix it. Don't you guys use glaziers? I simply cannot imagine anyone other than a glazier repairing a broken window. I've personally replaced broken panes in my greenhouse, but they just slot in using a little metal widget - a child could do it. I'd call a glazier out for everything else.
 
  • #22
I have done it myself,but it's a PITA,so yes,I'd have someone else fix it next time.
I thought it was hilarious that PR said she'd went downstairs and vacummed up most of the glass...this is the person whom LHP said doesn't even put up a jar of p-nut butter ! yea...right....
 
  • #23
Dru said:
Well, I know I'm in a minority here. :)

But I think JR did it. I think PR grabbed her clothes and put them on when he woke her up in the middle of the night to tell her something terrible had happened.

I think the scream the neighbor heard was PR's, on encountering her dead daughter.

I think PR had her clothes on from that point straight up untill the 911 call, but that she went and put her makeup on before the call, to hide the obvious fact that she'd been crying.

I think JR's shower the night before MIGHT have happened after the blow to JBR's head, but before he 'finished' the crime by inflicting the sexual wound and then strangling her.

On that last point, does anyone know what time JR says he showered on Christmas night?
I think JR was the murderer also. Men are more likely to kill, women are more likely to cover for them. History has shown mothers will ignore their daughters being molested. John showered. He had a reason too if he was washing off dna. Patsy who had to fix what her husband had done did the covering up and likely her JR whine while she redressed JonBenet and wrote a ransom note. Perhaps she even wrote the ransom note while JR showered. It would explain why so many hints point towards the family. Patsy would have been doing her heartfelt duty while she was seething at JR. She would have left hints to point in the right direction out of anger. Only when the focus went to her instead of John would she consider it not a wise move.
I dom't think she could have kept her mouth shut if she had not gotten herself in so deep and became a suspect herself. The main suspect.
 
  • #24
Also, it was never confirmed if Patsy's shower worked. Ot if she had used it the day before. Or when it was last used. Perhaps she didn't want to use it because JonBenet was killed there.
 
  • #25
Becba said:
I think JR was the murderer also. Men are more likely to kill, women are more likely to cover for them. History has shown mothers will ignore their daughters being molested. John showered. He had a reason too if he was washing off dna. Patsy who had to fix what her husband had done did the covering up and likely her JR whine while she redressed JonBenet and wrote a ransom note. Perhaps she even wrote the ransom note while JR showered. It would explain why so many hints point towards the family. Patsy would have been doing her heartfelt duty while she was seething at JR. She would have left hints to point in the right direction out of anger. Only when the focus went to her instead of John would she consider it not a wise move.
I dom't think she could have kept her mouth shut if she had not gotten herself in so deep and became a suspect herself. The main suspect.
I think the last part of the RN sounds like a wife bitching at her husband..when she switches to his first name,from there on...it's like she's saying...watch out buddy !!!!
 
  • #26
I do think that JR had PR write the RN while he attended to other areas of the coverup--some of which he would fail to discuss with PR right away, so they had little crossed signals in the early days when one or the other of them would remember the 'wrong' shirt JBR was wearing, etc.

The reason I think PR went along with things is that I think JR was/is an extremely clever man who committed a crime out of fear of exposure but then had enough time afterward to figure out the best way to get PR's help.

I've always been struck by the 'staging within staging' comments--some from LE, I think? And I think that this crime was staged twice, once shortly after the murder was completed, and then again during the early hours of the morning of Dec. 26.

The first staging was entirely JR's work. He removed JBR's underwear because the staged sexual wound, intended to cover up evidence of molestation, bled more than he'd anticipated. If the blood soaked through the white long johns PR could hardly overlook it. So, he wiped JBR down, remembered that PR had mentioned a gift of undewear for JBR's cousin, opened up a few gifts until he found it, and replaced the pair he took off of JBR with one that was just like it--only far too big. He's counting on PR not noticing the size difference when she first encounters her daughter's body, and by the time LE brings it up he will have told her 'the awful truth' he 'discovered' later, pretending that he replaced the underwear during the second staging, the one PR knows about.

Once JR has cleaned JBR up, he leaves the rope he has used to strangle her around her neck (just rope at this point; not artistically constructed garottes or anything). There is no rope on her wrists, and her body may or may not be lying face up--she may be lying face down, or even sideways at this point. JR then places two more objects near JBR's body before going to get PR. Awakening her, he tells her, brokenly, that something terrible has happened

The two objects beside JBR's body are BR's pocketknife and a single golf club. The inference would be obvious even without JR's story: BR has done this.

JR stresses that it must have been an 'accident,' creating PR's dislike of the word and her reaction to it in the interviews. He probably tells her that BR was half-asleep or sleepwalking; later he may suggest that the trauma of the experience has caused BR to forget the whole thing. Once PR's shock has begun to subside, JR is able to convince her that their best course lies in 'protecting' their son.

Even if PR is aware that BR can't be charged with the crime, what JR is saying makes sense. BR will be taken from them, sent away for rehabilitation, perhaps. He may be kept from them for a long time, sent into foster care, even. Courts may decide that the R's are unfit parents since they 'let' this happen, ignoring such warning signs as BR's first violent attack on his sister with the golf club some years before. If PR is in any way hesitant, JR can play his trump card: PR's cancer may return at any time; she could die without ever getting her son back.

Whatever the case may be, somthing works, and PR leaves the basement and JR. He has suggested the ransom note; I think at that point he may still think he can get JBR's body out of the house. He does realize later that this won't be possible, and despite the change in plans leaves the ransom note--it gives them a reason to call 911, to cancel their flight, and to get friends and neighbors over, which can only help to confuse things.

At some point he has to tell PR about the underwear, and when he does, he suggests that BR has been abusing JBR! This would explain PR's startled "How did you know?" response to the information LE has about the abuse.

Some of the second staging ends up being confused and misleading because there are now two people involved, with two different objectives. JR, for instance, knows that BR hasn't been involved, and so casually leaves the pocket knife in the basement, not far from the crime scene--but he is overheard inquiring about the golf clubs; possibly he is afraid that something will connect the 'staged' club with the crime scene, some minute bit of fiber evidence or something. (Or perhaps he wiped it completely clean, like the flashlight and batteries!) But PR, thinking of a staged abduction scene, suggest re-dressing JBR in the Barbie gown, something JR doesn't want to do--the size 12 underwear are ridiculous enough under a pair of pants, but under a gown they will be a glaring inconsistency.

Sorry this is so long. But one of the reasons I can see JR committing this crime and then manipulating PR into helping with the cover up is that I can see him playing on PR's fears in re: BR throughout the ordeal, and I really can't think of any reason JR would be willing to go along with PR in covering up a crime he'd possibly believe she committed.
 
  • #27
That's good Dru ! good points...I've always wondered about the garrotte knot..it looks like something JR would have fashioned(due to his boating hobby?)moreso than PR.
What do you think his motive was? sexual rage maybe...and or JB threatened to tell someone?I suspect the after-xmas visit from santa was JR (he even called himself santa in DOI) letting JB know to expect a visit from him.maybe he was even wearing a santa suit as a disguise? I think the R's were q'd about one,if I recall correctly.

but there is the fiber evidence..how could PR's fibers get in the rope and on the tape,if she didn't help with some of the staging?that is not to say she was the killer tho.

I've always wondered what staging within staging meant...that one parent staged the crime for the other,(to mask what really happened),presented it to the other as such,and then for some reason...restaged it for LE?could that be why PR's fibers were there...she helped with that???

also the fact they weren't comforting each other...leads to beleive one knew the other likely killed her??
I do think JR was sex. abusing JB,and that's why he wanted to get out of town so fast...as well as he likely thought about even leaving the country...he knew what would be found at the autopsy.I don't think he would have been trying to skip town so fast if only PR was guilty of anything..I think he was looking to protect himself.

One question about JR saying BR did it...PR's comments at the Fernie's were
'they've killed my baby', 'why did they do this?' and 'we didn't mean for this to happen'.was she incoherant (from meds and stress),or did her comments have some merit? she used the word 'they' a couple of times,and then changed to 'we'.
thx for any thoughts !!
 
  • #28
JMO8778, I appreciate your questions, as they're helping me get things straight in my mind about this case.

First, I think the motive was rage/fear of exposure. If (and I know it's a big "if") JBR was being abused, and if the abuser was JR, then I think the 911 call on Dec. 23 (? is that right?) was the trigger that led to the murder.

Now, JBR might not have made that call; it might really have been an adult's misdial. But taken with JBR's crying and saying she didn't feel pretty, JR might have thought she was becoming dangerous. I think what happened the night of the murder is that JBR got back up out of bed around 11pm. I think despite his statement to the contrary JR did do some sort of "locking up" ritual, and that JBR heard him in the kitchen, and came down the spiral stairs. (Now, it's been said that she was too scared to get up during the night, and I think that's probably true. But there's a big difference between getting up and going downstairs in the middle of the night in a dark, silent house, and getting up when you can still hear people moving around and there are lights on.)

Something happened then. Maybe JR yelled at JBR to go back to bed, and she refused. Maybe she said something like "You can't make me," and JR took that as a threat. We'll probably never know.

I think PR's fibers got on the rope, and all over JBR, when she was brought to her daughter's body by JR. I do think she rocked and cradled JBR and that the brilliant person who came up with the ring theory for the abrasions is exactly right. I think the fibers ended up on the tape by tranference.

As to PR's incoherent switching from "they" to "we," I think that she said "they" when she remembered she was supposed to be blaming a small foreign faction for JBR's death, and "we" when she remembered the 'truth'--she may have felt guilty, like she and JR should have seen the warning signs of BR's 'problems' and should have intervened.
 
  • #29
Regarding the thought process regarding showering away forensic evidence - I think that, 10 years ago, we weren't watching CSI reruns every night, and so terms like "trace evidence" were far from our thought process. I know I ould have been less inclined to think foresics in 1996 than I would be today.

Furthermore, in a distraught, panicked state, in which staging may have occurred all night, the idea of what one is wearing may not have been foremost in the mind of PR, if she was indeed involved in the crime and/or the coverup. Perps are not as clever in real life as they are on TV, and add to that the inexperience of this possible perp, I think it was just good luck that the clothes were not taken into evidence right away, due to inpetitude on the part of the BPD in the first hours of the case.

That's what I've been saying for months.
 

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