Penn State Sandusky scandal: AD arrested, Paterno, Spanier fired; coverup charged #7

[J. J. in Phila]

I'll just refer you back to my previous post on this subject:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Penn State Sandusky scandal: AD arrested, Paterno, Spanier fired; coverup charged #7


This persistence in not recognizing any police dept. except Penn St.'s is disturbing and revealing of the cocoon that surrounds the school and community.

They are sworn police officers under the law, which I hadn't realized. They are effectively the local police on campus. They were not the problem.

 

[Tipstaff]

Thinking Curley knew isn't evidence that Curley knew; Schultz did know.

Schultz indicated that, in regard to the 1998 incident he talked with Courtney, Harmon, Gricar, and Spanier, but not Curley or Paterno (from the GJ testimony read at preliminary, p. 217). Harmon indicated he didn't talk to Gricar directly.

On p. 190, Curley said he had not heard about the 1998 until the grand jury told him. He did tell Spanier about the incident.

Knowing what is in the written records is one thing but the people in power in this tragedy probably were smart enough to conduct many conversations not preserved or written about as a CYA.

If it isn't written down they have a certain deniability.

People who know crimes have been committed don't always have transcripts of who they talked to when they talked to them etc especially when they see a scandal of major proportions brewing with one of their own going on. They don't always meet in their offices and make a memo for the record.

Look at all that has been discussed about who Gricar met and who he talked to etc. the day he disappeared.

Hopefully a Sandusky trial will determine much more about who knew what, when they knew it and what they did or didn't do with the information.

Until then we are left to fill in the blanks and just because it isn't written down doesn't mean things didn't happen.

Gricar is the perfect example of this - he goes missing, his hard drive is in the river and we don't really know why he didn't prosecute Sandusky.

:twocents:

 

[BigCat]

From the presentment, no. Sandusky was at the mother's house for the admission; I think the interview with CYS was at their office, but the presentment is not clear.

Here's where I read that information:

Mr. Schreffler and Jerry Lauro, a child abuse investigator from the state Department of Public Welfare, interviewed Mr. Sandusky on June 1, 1998. During that interview at the Lasch football building on Penn State's campus, Mr. Schreffler said the man admitted to showering with boys.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11352/1197680-454.stm#ixzz1keoyNFZ4

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Knowing what is in the written records is one thing but the people in power in this tragedy probably were smart enough to conduct many conversations not preserved or written about as a CYA.

If it isn't written down they have a certain deniability.

Well there is a 95 page report om the 1998 incident. However, Harmon indicated Schultz never read it. Neither Curley nor Schultz say that Curley knew about the 1998 incident. I cannot see Schultz protecting Curley while admitting he told Spanier, who was Schultz's and Curley's superior.

In the Gricar disappearance, 7 years later, there was no evidence he was dealing with Sandusky when he disappeared.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here's where I read that information:

Thanks, it was not in the GJ presentment. I'm not, however, sure why Paterno would know about the subject of that meeting?

 

[BigCat]

Thanks, it was not in the GJ presentment. I'm not, however, sure why Paterno would know about the subject of that meeting?

Why wouldn't he? His long-time defensive coordinator was interviewed by representatives of the police and child protective services within Paterno's personal fiefdom.

Yet, in another sense, at least inasmuch as Penn State's football program saw itself as different, it had been a victim of the game's growth. In short, it was starting to look a lot like that of any other big-time football school: insular and indulged. A small, private village had been built around Beaver Stadium, complete with its own dorm, the Nittany Apartments, where most of the football players lived. Paterno had once boasted about his team's "spartan" training facilities. Now the Nittany Lions worked out in the $14.7 million, ninety-thousand-square-foot Louis and Mildred Lasch Football Building — which was strictly off-limits to other athletes, let alone the general student body.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/15314/book-excerpt-death-comes-to-happy-valley

Sandusky was interviewed by authorities in June of 98; by the winter of 99, Sandusky knew he would not be the next head coach at Penn State ("The winter of 1999 was kind of difficult. I tried to do a lot of things. I came to the realization that I was not destined to become the head football coach at Penn State" -- Jerry Sandusky, Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story). The grand jury presentment places the date even earlier:

The Penn State football program relocated to the Lasch Football Building in 1999 and that facility had a sauna. Victim 4 reported that after the move, most of the sexual conduct that did not occur in a hotel room occurred in the sauna, as the area is more secluded.

Victim 4 remembers Sandusky being emotionally upset after having a meeting with Joe Paterno in which Paterno told Sandusky he would not be the next head coach at Penn State and which preceded Sandusky’s retirement. Sandusky told Victim 4 not to tell anyone about the meeting. That meeting occurred in May, 1999.

SPORTSbyBROOKS has a report out that, in January of 99, Paterno was actively attempting to start a football program at PSU-Altoona campus with Sandusky as head coach. (http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/paterno-pitched-sandusky-as-head-coach-in-1999-29954)

Why was Paterno so determined to get rid of Sandusky at the beginning of 1999?

Ultimately, I hope you're right and my suspicions are unfounded. I hope Paterno did not know about the 98 investigation. Because if he did, then Paterno allowed Sandusky to take victim 4 to the Alamo Bowl as his "guest" knowing the man was possibly a pedophile.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Why wouldn't he? His long-time defensive coordinator was interviewed by representatives of the police and child protective services within Paterno's personal fiefdom.

Because Paterno was not omniscient. There has been no suggestion, obviously, that there was security on the doors or that people had to log in.

Sandusky was interviewed by authorities in June of 98; by the winter of 99, Sandusky knew he would not be the next head coach at Penn State ("The winter of 1999 was kind of difficult. I tried to do a lot of things. I came to the realization that I was not destined to become the head football coach at Penn State" -- Jerry Sandusky, Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story). The grand jury presentment places the date even earlier

18 months isn't exactly contemporaneous. Sandusky was still in place for both the 1998 and 1999 seasons.

For years, they were trying to build up Penn State Altoona, almost as a beta site for Penn State. It is only about 35-45 minutes away, and that may have more to do with it. Late 80's to the late 90's, they had expanded Altoona. (Disclosure, I was at Altoona in the early 1980's.)

Schultz indicated that Sandusky would get a better pension, if he retired at that point.

The could be two internal factors. First, Paterno wasn't going to retire. Sandusky could wait another 10-15 years before he'd ascend the throne as it where. Second, there was an alternate line of succession, Jay Paterno.

Why was Paterno so determined to get rid of Sandusky at the beginning of 1999?

He wasn't ridding himself, directly, either. He could have moved Sandusky out of the direct line of succession. Jay had brought in in 1995 and promoted in 1999, according to Wikipedia.

Schultz indicated that neither Paterno nor Curley were involved in the 1998 incident. Curley said he hadn't known about it either. Schultz indicated Spanier was informed about both incident, though Schultz indicated that he told Spanier nothing about the sexual nature in 2002.

I cannot imagine Schultz trying to protect Curley and Paterno, and not trying to protect Spanier.

 

[BigCat]

He wasn't ridding himself, directly, either. He could have moved Sandusky out of the direct line of succession. Jay had brought in in 1995 and promoted in 1999, according to Wikipedia.

Schultz indicated that neither Paterno nor Curley were involved in the 1998 incident. Curley said he hadn't known about it either. Schultz indicated Spanier was informed about both incident, though Schultz indicated that he told Spanier nothing about the sexual nature in 2002.

I'm not suggesting that Paterno was officially notified. In 1998 Paterno had been on staff at Penn State for 48 years. I'm sure he had plenty of possible sources outside of Schultz.

I cannot imagine Schultz trying to protect Curley and Paterno, and not trying to protect Spanier

I can easily imagine it. I believe, when the history of this scandal is finally written, the desire to protect Paterno will explain many actions in this scandal. JMO.

 

[Tipstaff]

Lawyer asks judge to let Sandusky see his grandchildren
Friday, January 27, 2012


By Liz Navratil, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
The lawyer representing former Penn State assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky asked a judge today to alter the conditions of his bail so that Mr. Sandusky may visit his grandchildren.

Mr. Sandusky, who faces 52 criminal counts on charges he sexually abused 10 boys over 15 years, has been on house arrest since he posted bail on Dec. 8.

The terms of his bail prohibit him from contacting anyone under the age of 18. Mr. Sandusky has 11 grandchildren under the age of 18 and is expecting another one, his lawyer Joseph Amendola wrote in a motion filed today in the Centre County Court of Common Pleas.

Mr. Amendola asked a judge to changes the terms of Mr. Sandusky's bail so that his grandchildren may visit him at his home and so that he may contact them by mail, phone, e-mail, texting and Skyping, with permission from at least one of their parents.

Mr. Amendola also asked a judge to allow Mr. Sandusky to leave his home to meet with his defense team, provided that he is accompanied by at least one member of that team and receives permission from the Centre County probation office.

A hearing on the matter has been scheduled for 10 a.m. Feb. 10
First published on January 27, 2012 at 7:01 pm


Read more: http://postgazette.com/pg/12027/1206491-100.stm#ixzz1ki53KBZZ

Guess home confinement is causing Sandusky to go stir crazy.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm not suggesting that Paterno was officially notified. In 1998 Paterno had been on staff at Penn State for 48 years. I'm sure he had plenty of possible sources outside of Schultz.



I can easily imagine it. I believe, when the history of this scandal is finally written, the desire to protect Paterno will explain many actions in this scandal. JMO.

Schultz actually answered to Spanier, not Paterno. Spanier, not Paterno, had the ability to dismiss Schultz. I could see him protecting the "boss," Spanier, but why would he protect Paterno? Schultz testified that Paterno raised the matter with him in 2002, thus completing Paterno's legal obligation. Absolutely no one listed any involvement of Paterno in the 1998 incident, and that one was reported to the police.

The only thing that Schultz actually "knew," in 1998, was that Sandusky was "cleared" by the DA and CYS. According to Harmon, Schultz never even saw the 95 page report.

Sorry, but I don't believe in Paterno's godlike omniscience that you are attributing to him.

 

[Reader]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/football/ncaa/01/25/penn.state.ap/index.html?eref=sircrc

HARTFORD, Conn. (AP) -- The child sexual abuse scandal at Penn State University has prompted state lawmakers across the nation to take another look at laws designed to protect children and punish child predators.

Thirty-eight legislatures are back in session this month, most for the first time since retired assistant Penn State football coach Jerry Sandusky was charged in November with child sex abuse and two school officials were charged with failing to properly report abuse allegations. At least 12 states are considering mandatory reporting legislation this year, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures, and more are expected to craft bills as their sessions get into full swing.

In addition to measures to improve the reporting of suspected child sex abuse, bills have been drafted across the country that would increase or even eliminate the statutes of limitations for bringing criminal or civil cases against alleged abusers.


More at link...

 

[BigCat]

Schultz actually answered to Spanier, not Paterno. Spanier, not Paterno, had the ability to dismiss Schultz. I could see him protecting the "boss," Spanier, but why would he protect Paterno?

Schultz is no dummy. He realized that Spanier was/is expendable. Unlike Paterno, Spanier doesn't possess a cult following.

Spanier is loath to take a hard line in negotiations because, ultimately, Paterno holds the hammer -- his relationships with top Penn State donors. http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/the_truth_behind_graham_spanie.html

Schultz testified that Paterno raised the matter with him in 2002, thus completing Paterno's legal obligation. Absolutely no one listed any involvement of Paterno in the 1998 incident, and that one was reported to the police.

The only thing that Schultz actually "knew," in 1998, was that Sandusky was "cleared" by the DA and CYS. According to Harmon, Schultz never even saw the 95 page report.

I'm only suggesting that Paterno got wind of the investigation. Hardly a leap on my part.

Sorry, but I don't believe in Paterno's godlike omniscience that you are attributing to him.

I'm not attributing godlike ommiscience to Paterno. I'm attributing Paterno's desire for godlike omniscience, hubris, as a major contributing factor to this tragedy.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Schultz is no dummy. He realized that Spanier was/is expendable. Unlike Paterno, Spanier doesn't possess a cult following.

Spanier was the guy who could fire him. Paterno wasn't.

I'm only suggesting that Paterno got wind of the investigation. Hardly a leap on my part.

I think it is a gigantic leap, since basically only LE knew the details. Who knew about in 1998, the police? Some in the DA's office, Lauro at CYS Schultz, Courtney, and Spanier. That is a narrow group and it is outside of Paterno's (and Curley's) chain of command.

The GJ only found about it more than a year into the investigation.

I'm not attributing godlike ommiscience to Paterno. I'm attributing Paterno's desire for godlike omniscience, hubris, as a major contributing factor to this tragedy.

I think you are attributing godlike omniscience to Paterno in the 1998 incident. Even Schultz didn't look at the details (which was gross incompetence), according to Harmon, and Harmon only told Schultz. He told him that there was an incident and nobody found anything.

 

[StellarsJay]

In the past month there was a statement by someone that after his firing, Paterno read or listened to only one negative news story and then stopped following them. Fighting cancer is a major reason to shelter one's self, but if this is true in indicates a powerful capacity to distance himself from things he didn't want to hear.

I wonder if the 2002 outcome might have differed if the rape had happened on a Tuesday night, so that McQuearry told Paterno in his office on a working day morning, not a weekend? Silly thought...

 

[BigCat]

I think it is a gigantic leap, since basically only LE knew the details. Who knew about in 1998, the police? Some in the DA's office, Lauro at CYS Schultz, Courtney, and Spanier. That is a narrow group and it is outside of Paterno's (and Curley's) chain of command.

I guess we just disagree on this point. I believe Paterno had his sources within the police department. He has admitted that he had a close relationship with the cops in the past.

In 2004, after several incidents involving football players, Mr. Paterno told the Allentown Morning Call newspaper that the players weren't misbehaving any more than usual, but that such news was now more public. "I can go back to a couple guys in the '70s who drove me nuts," he said. "The cops would call me, and I used to put them in bed in my house and run their rear ends off the next day. Nobody knew about it. That's the way we handled it."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...52073672561402.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

I don't think it's out of the question Paterno was notified of the investigation in 98 -- of course no one within the police department is going to admit to notifying him -- and Paterno thought he could handle the Sandusky situation his way, internally, like he had in the past. He would force Sandusky into retirement and that would be the end of it. However, he didn't fully appreciate how disturbed Sandusky was. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[al66pine]

BigCat posted:
"I don't think it's out of the question Paterno was notified of the investigation in 98 -- of course no one within the police department is going to admit to notifying him -- and Paterno thought he could handle the Sandusky situation his way, internally, like he had in the past. He would force Sandusky into retirement and that would be the end of it. However, he didn't fully appreciate how disturbed Sandusky was. Just my opinion, of course."
BBM.

Now with JoePa dead ---
---will a PennSt PD employee admit to having notified JoePa?
--- or a PSPD ex-employee?

I'd guess if this possibility of notifying JoePa was discussed in PSPD, the actual notification
wd/hv/bn bumped up the line a notch or so above the ordinary SOP?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

BigCat posted:
"I don't think it's out of the question Paterno was notified of the investigation in 98 -- of course no one within the police department is going to admit to notifying him -- and Paterno thought he could handle the Sandusky situation his way, internally, like he had in the past. He would force Sandusky into retirement and that would be the end of it. However, he didn't fully appreciate how disturbed Sandusky was. Just my opinion, of course."
BBM.

Now with JoePa dead ---
---will a PennSt PD employee admit to having notified JoePa?
--- or a PSPD ex-employee?

I'd guess if this possibility of notifying JoePa was discussed in PSPD, the actual notification
wd/hv/bn bumped up the line a notch or so above the ordinary SOP?

Knowing the power of Centre County gossip, I think we'd have heard about it by now.

I'd doubt that Paterno knew about the 1998 incident. The problem is that even i someone told him about the investigation, it was that he was "cleared."

I can understand, for a number of reasons, not telling Paterno about 1998.

 

[Reader]

Interesting:

While Pennsylvania Attorney General Linda Kelly says that her office won't file charges against Joe Paterno for not reporting the alleged child sexual abuse by former Penn State defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky, the 84-year-old coach could eventually face criminal charges for perjury, obstruction of justice and violating the state's Child Protective Services Law. Paterno could also become a defendant in civil lawsuits filed by Sandusky's alleged victims. Those lawsuits could allege that Paterno negligently failed to prevent a third party with whom he had a supervisory relationship (Sandusky) from committing abuse.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...nn/11/09/joe.paterno/index.html#ixzz1knZ2Z4fb


The BBM certainly indicates that these lawsuits would apply to a time that Paterno was supervising JS and was aware of the abuses, which would have to be before his retirement in 1999.

 

[Reader]

Stewart Mandel
SI.com
11/11/11

But if there were ever a time for fans, media members and college administrators alike to get a collective wake-up call, it's following Joe Paterno's dismissal. No football coach has ever lorded over an entire university the way Paterno did during his 45 years in State College. And no university has suffered a more gruesome football-related episode than the ongoing Jerry Sandusky child molestation scandal.

At Penn State, Paterno had all the power. President Graham Spanier and athletic director Tim Curley were technically his bosses, but they held as much sway over him as the guys selling hot dogs at Beaver Stadium on Saturdays. We know this most vividly because in 2004, Spanier and Curley tried to push out the struggling 77-year-old coach, and Paterno told them ... no.

That distorted dynamic is why Sandusky was allowed free reign of the Penn State football complex years after the first account of sexual molestation surfaced. Who was going to stop him if not Paterno?

In McQueary's world, Paterno was The Authority. McQueary, a State College native, former Penn State quarterback and son of a huge Nittany Lions fan, has spent nearly his entire life in a warped world few of us understand. What some view as cowardice probably seemed courageous to McQueary at the time: He went to The Authority's house and relayed bad things about the coach's long-time trusted confidant. He didn't know The Authority would merely pass the information along to his two in-name-only superiors, who then failed to take substantive action.

What's far more puzzling is how McQueary went to work for the next nine years and accepted seeing Sandusky at practice or in the weight room. But the Penn State football complex wasn't a normal workplace; the lone Authority was out to lunch in his last years on the job, but he held such clout that few dared to question his actions. That's not an excuse for McQueary's decisions, but it's reality -- a sick reality in which inaction was the norm.

But there's something inherently wrong with a community in which one person holds an inordinate amount of power. Teachers answer to their principal. CEOs answer to their shareholders. Mike McQueary answered to Joe Paterno.

Paterno didn't answer to anybody. No coach has ever experienced a more painful downfall, in part because no coach had ever been elevated to such heights.

Quotes from:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...-joe-paterno-culture/index.html#ixzz1kndJOjnF

 

[Reader]

Comments by former child sexual abuse victim and Penn State assistant coach Matt Paknis:

“He (Sandusky) was always grabbing the players,” Paknis says. “He would get in their space, lean up right against them. I’d also been taught you don’t touch anyone unless you are teaching a technique. Boundaries were clearly an issue. It made me feel awkward, the way he would grab or pinch them.”

That wasn’t all that made him uncomfortable during his short Penn State tenure, which followed a successful playing career on a three-time undefeated state championship high school team before starting at Brown.

Paknis found it “bizarre” that Penn State coaches all showered in the same space, behind a clear Plexiglas perimeter.

“They would talk about plays," he said. "I thought that was maybe old-school or something, so I mentioned that to coaches at other places, and they never did that. That was not for me.”

Paknis also was unnerved by some of his interaction with Sandusky, even though none of it was sexual in nature. They didn’t spend much time together, but they coached different sides of the ball. Still, Paknis recalls that Sandusky would tell him “that he hated Joe. He was never unpleasant to me, but I could not figure out where that was coming from, so I would back off. I didn’t want to get into it.”

That doesn’t mean Paknis was a fan of Paterno’s, either.
Paknis didn’t think much of the Penn State power structure, or the man at the top, who “wouldn’t give you time of day unless you were on his level, or have any interaction with you without it serving him.” He saw a system that served as a “kingdom,” designed to serve a single person, without checks or balances. He saw a coach who had been able to produce a constructive output on the field, but “underneath, optimized fear.”

And he saw a community that bought so completely into the image that “he does things the right way,” that his way was rarely questioned.

“Joe is perceived to be a father figure or grandfather figure, and that’s a very hard thing for people to get to that realization, that your dad is bad,” Paknis says.

That’s why Paknis isn’t surprised that many former players have spoken out in sympathy toward Paterno since his firing last Wednesday, referencing all the good work he has done for the program and those who have gone through it: “Their whole image is locked into that. That is the way they define themselves. To let go of that, it’s very difficult.”

Paknis believes that Paterno followed “what was his MO for all those years,” and that “when it was time to step up and protect the kids, he protected himself.” He also believes that the truth is even worse than what has been reported.

Paknis thinks Paterno knew something earlier even than 1999, when Sandusky resigned, one year after one boy — Victim 6 in the indictment — reported an incident to his mother, and it was investigated by university police and the district attorney.

That’s because Paknis came to this simple conclusion during his two years in Happy Valley, a conclusion that doesn’t change after Paterno aged well past the point of the average working person:
“Joe knows everything.”

And certainly, he saves none (sympathy) for Paterno, whom he calls a “spin doctor” who believed too much of his own hype.

“It’s sort of an empty reaction,” Paknis says. “Almost like a pitiful reaction. I wish (his ouster) had happened 10 years ago when he first knew about it.

Quotes from:
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/45283472/ns/sports-college_football/page/2/