People Magazine article about Lisa

[deoneta]

Okay, is this the way the story progressed? First DB puts Lisa to bed at 7:30 and checks on her before retiring at 10:30. Then she says she put her to bed at 6:40 and checked on her shortly afterwards once. Then she couldn't remember checking on her at all after putting her to bed. Her attorney said that "things were coming back to her" or words to that effect. It seems that the opposite happened to DB. She keeps forgetting more and more. Apparently she did remember rescuing the kitty as she was able to explain that to JI. Maybe there was a kitty. It made me think however of a person who is making up stuff as she goes and can't resist the unnecessary embellisment to add "authenticity" to the tale. The same goes for the nightmare/comforting story (or was it bonding time since Dad was away?) But wait, JI was supposed to come home at 10 so that spending time with the son while JI worked at night scenario can't be right. I can't wait to hear from the neighbor. I hope she isn't suffering alcoholic impairment/blackout memory loss as well. All MOO.

 

[marge_rita]

I think you are getting tired. I was just wondering about you thoughts on how the kitten could have been part of a coverup. Like was it planned in advance somehow, or it happened to be around for Debbie to use, or what? All your other points are fine, I'm just not asking about those things right now.

Sorry, I deleted my post.

 

[dovebar]

I think the kitten may have been brought by an abductor. Pedophiles and other abductors are known to try to entice children with small pets. It's possible they brought a kitten with them to distract Lisa, or whatever child they found they were able to take, and when she went with them without crying - because that's her personality or she was sleepy - they left the kitten behind once they had the child.

Brother heard something, at least enough to wake him (whether he realized it was "something" or not, he woke up), turned on lights on his way to mom's room.

Or the abductor turned on lights, either unthinkingly, he had to - and forgot to shut them off - or what I think most likely, he had a drug habit and druggies do stupid stuff all the time. Children are saleable, and tradeable for drugs.

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

I honestly don't think the kitten plays any role in whatever happened, pro or con. JMHO

 

[mmmagique]

FR because I'm only on the first page, but do you know where you can find a lot of kittens and cats? At dumpsters. Many will be feral, but others will be neighborhood outdoor cats looking for a second meal.

They're especially prevalent at dumpsters in apartment complexes. There was something on the news the other night that someone in an apartment complex in our area got tired of all the cats so he (or she) mixed some tuna with anti-freeze and set it out for the poor little things.

If you've done something terrible, and you're disposing of evidence, and you're heart-broken, and a little kitten comes up and rubs up against you...could you take it as a sign from God that you're meant to have that kitten as comfort?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Sorry, I deleted my post.

Ya, I saw that. I don't want to put you in a spot. If I'm asking a question you feel is unfair put me on ignore.

 

[dovebar]

I honestly don't think the kitten plays any role in whatever happened, pro or con. JMHO

I think this is also possible - a true coincidence. However, I think it also shows positive things about the mother that most don't want to believe right now.

 

[MamaK]

I honestly don't think the kitten plays any role in whatever happened, pro or con. JMHO

I agree.

 

[marge_rita]

I think this is also possible - a true coincidence. However, I think it also shows positive things about the mother that most don't want to believe right now.

She found a kitten and lost her baby.......nope doesn't work for me.
I'm not buying the coincidences that happened that night either.
The coincidences sound a little scripted.

imo

 

[dovebar]

The problem with the "she snapped" scenario is that she has no history. She was out buying items to care for the little girl, who is, by all accounts, well-cared for. There is no record of DFS visits to the house. They do not have a violent history as a couple. She does not have a long litany of boyfriends, ex-friends, ex-bosses and others saying that she had a history of snapping. She cooks for others. She's friends with her neighbors. She's close to her brother. She's a stay-at-home mom to three kids who are, by all acounts, nice kids and also well-cared for. Indeed, she's the kind of naive, relatively uneducated person who takes in a stray kitten (when most of us would put it in quarantine in the laundry room in a box until we could get it to the shelter or a vet - if we did that much).

The kind of bizarre feeding frenzy that media, and LE using the media keeps trying to whip up just isn't supported by any evidence.

 

[w1df10wr]

RANCH,
The more 'details' thown into the mom's story, the more I doubt it.

Deborah has given LE and the media at least 2 different times that she fed baby Lisa.

Deborah said she sat on the porch drinking wine and didn't check on Lisa again. (Was her drinking 6-10 glasses of wine more important than checking on her sick baby? ) She couldn't check on her 10 month baby but rescued a kitten?!?!

in my mind I see something like this played out....

Friend or no friend D sat around drinking Monday night. Before her bf got home, she did 'something' to and with baby Lisa. To make J think she was a good mommy, she wakes her son and ask him to come sleep in her bed. WHICH according to J was something never done.

The cooking dinner for friends and the baby kitten rescue imo are thrown in to make D sound likeable, responsible.
When in fact she --that night by her own admittance was drunk. To that I will add IMO extremely irresponsible.


imo

According to People didn't J say, when he realized baby Lisa was gone all hell broke loose? Or am I confusing articles?

People Magazine 10/31/11 page 47 "I turned the light on in her room, and I found she was gone," says Irwin, 29. "And that's when all hell broke loose, and we started freaking out and running all over the house for her. And she was no where to be found."

Page 51 ~on when they realized their daughter was missing: Jeremy: "Immediately, when I saw she wasn't in the crib or and wasn't in my bed."~

I'm not sure what to think anymore.

 

[Karmaa]

This is gonna probably sound quite silly, and I'll be the first one to admit I could be more of a social butterfly.

Is it the norm to have your neighbors come visit you for 5 HOURS? Omg - unless this was my BFF, no neighbor of mine is gonna crash on my front stoop for that long -- I don't care who it is.

Doesn't DB have dishes to clean and kids to bathe? Or better yet, windows to close and doors to lock? Oh, then there's that pesky kitten who may or may not have food or a litter box.

And what on earth did they talk about? I'm afraid I'd be out of conversation in about 45 minutes.

But again, I'll be the first person to tell ya that I need to get out more (but not by having my neighbor hang out with me for 5 hours with a box o' wine). That personally sounds like a nightmare to me - :floorlaugh:

MOO

Mel

This is definitely one of those things where everyone is different. When my daughter was young, many of us with small children would sit outside for hours in the evening. Many of my neighbors drank too - mostly beer and wine coolers. I personally didn't but one couple were definitely alcoholics and would drink a 24-pack between them in a normal evening. They never neglected their kid. She was always clean, well fed, and seemed relatively happy. No one ever felt a need to call social services on them, and believe me - in that neighborhood, people would have.

So, even though I don't drink, I don't think that drinking automatically makes a person a bad parent. And even though I don't particularly like socializing, it doesn't seem weird to me that the neighbor would be there all evening - no husbands, feed all the kids at one house and just talk about the kids or whatever while drinking some wine.

 

[jjenny]

This is definitely one of those things where everyone is different. When my daughter was young, many of us with small children would sit outside for hours in the evening. Many of my neighbors drank too - mostly beer and wine coolers. I personally didn't but one couple were definitely alcoholics and would drink a 24-pack between them in a normal evening. They never neglected their kid. She was always clean, well fed, and seemed relatively happy. No one ever felt a need to call social services on them, and believe me - in that neighborhood, people would have.

So, even though I don't drink, I don't think that drinking automatically makes a person a bad parent. And even though I don't particularly like socializing, it doesn't seem weird to me that the neighbor would be there all evening - no husbands, feed all the kids at one house and just talk about the kids or whatever while drinking some wine.

She, by her own admission, put a sick kid to bed at 6:40 pm, got drunk, and doesn't even know if she checked on her before going to bed.

 

[Just K]

I have always thought that she did find the kitten near a dumpster while scouting out a site to dump evidence. But, that theory depends entirely on whether or not the neighbor did or did not see an awake Lisa.

If something happened after the neighbor left then Mom would have had to leave both boys alone if she left the house. We now know that there was a concrete drainage ditch in the back yard and kittens are well known to emerge from sewers and drainage ditches. It's possible she took Lisa out to that ditch and found the kitten there. If the younger boy heard "Odd" things, he may have thought it was a nightmare but it actually could have been the incident that took Little Lisa away. Mom might have gone out and got the kitten and brought it in to calm the son down.

If JI was due home at 10:30 and the son was able to wake her due to a nightmare then it would make sense that she would wonder where her partner was. The son didn't go to bed, she says, until 10:30. He probably wouldn't have a nightmare before he'd been asleep for a few hours. Most people would be concerned if the sig other was five hours late. One hour... no worries, two hours...start to wish you had a working phone...three hours grab up the kids or lock up the house real good and run to the neighbor's to use the phone to call the work cell and if he didn't pick up...start calling the hospitals.

Here's another flaw in the "drunk" story. When did the younger son get into bed with her? It seems, she remembers he had a nightmare and got in bed with her and the kitten but remembers nothing else?

 

[marge_rita]

The problem with the "she snapped" scenario is that she has no history. She was out buying items to care for the little girl, who is, by all accounts, well-cared for. There is no record of DFS visits to the house. They do not have a violent history as a couple. She does not have a long litany of boyfriends, ex-friends, ex-bosses and others saying that she had a history of snapping. She cooks for others. She's friends with her neighbors. She's close to her brother. She's a stay-at-home mom to three kids who are, by all acounts, nice kids and also well-cared for. Indeed, she's the kind of naive, relatively uneducated person who takes in a stray kitten (when most of us would put it in quarantine in the laundry room in a box until we could get it to the shelter or a vet - if we did that much).

The kind of bizarre feeding frenzy that media, and LE using the media keeps trying to whip up just isn't supported by any evidence.

IMO FCA snapped and there was no history of her snapping before.
HOW many people who snap and kill have done so before? Not many, thus crimes of passion....someone gets ticked off, blows a gasket and kills someone in a fit of anger. No history needed.

imo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

People Magazine 10/31/11 page 47 "I turned the light on in her room, and I found she was gone," says Irwin, 29. "And that's when all hell broke loose, and we started freaking out and running all over the house for her. And she was no where to be found."

Page 51 ~on when they realized their daughter was missing: Jeremy: "Immediately, when I saw she wasn't in the crib or and wasn't in my bed."~

I'm not sure what to think anymore.

BBM Is this quote straight from the People article?
To say "or and wasn't" in a sentence is a little off .JMO.

 

[mmmagique]

This is probably the wrong thread to be asking this in, but here goes.

At what point do the family members of DB and JI start doubting the parents story. I would think that if something like this happened in my family and the evidence starting piling up, I would start looking at the family members closer. Is it blind loyalty or why does everyone in their family so strongly believe that the parents couldn't have done anything wrong. I know blood runs deep, but we are dealing with a likely dead baby here. Just doesn't make sense to me???

I think it's got to be incredibly difficult to change your thoughts and feelings about "Aunt Deb who makes the best chocolate cake and is easy to talk to" to "OMG she disappeared her sweet baby whom she appeared to adore."

That baby did look well loved and looked after. If she "snapped" and did something out of character (or he did) who among friends and relatives who know the other side of them would suspect it?

I'm quite sure if my favorite cousin (who looks a lot like Deb) was suspected of this and started changing her story a bunch of times, I would try to blame it on stress, the messed up reporting...anything.

Eventually...when the evidence became too over-whelming...only then, and only perhaps, could I even begin to entertain that possibility. My heart would be breaking, and I'm quite sure I'd look for many reasons not to believe it.

 

[marge_rita]

People Magazine 10/31/11 page 47 "I turned the light on in her room, and I found she was gone," says Irwin, 29. "And that's when all hell broke loose, and we started freaking out and running all over the house for her. And she was no where to be found."

Page 51 ~on when they realized their daughter was missing: Jeremy: "Immediately, when I saw she wasn't in the crib or and wasn't in my bed."~

I'm not sure what to think anymore.

Thanks Hon! You are on a roll tonight. That's the exact exerpt I was thinking about.

Don't feel bad if you don't know what to think about things.
I was on the fence, off the fence , semi-teetering on the fence and am now off again.

imo

We all are united in wanting this baby to be found!

 

[marge_rita]

I have always thought that she did find the kitten near a dumpster while scouting out a site to dump evidence. But, that theory depends entirely on whether or not the neighbor did or did not see an awake Lisa.

If something happened after the neighbor left then Mom would have had to leave both boys alone if she left the house. We now know that there was a concrete drainage ditch in the back yard and kittens are well known to emerge from sewers and drainage ditches. It's possible she took Lisa out to that ditch and found the kitten there. If the younger boy heard "Odd" things, he may have thought it was a nightmare but it actually could have been the incident that took Little Lisa away. Mom might have gone out and got the kitten and brought it in to calm the son down.

If JI was due home at 10:30 and the son was able to wake her due to a nightmare then it would make sense that she would wonder where her partner was. The son didn't go to bed, she says, until 10:30. He probably wouldn't have a nightmare before he'd been asleep for a few hours. Most people would be concerned if the sig other was five hours late. One hour... no worries, two hours...start to wish you had a working phone...three hours grab up the kids or lock up the house real good and run to the neighbor's to use the phone to call the work cell and if he didn't pick up...start calling the hospitals.

Here's another flaw in the "drunk" story. When did the younger son get into bed with her? It seems, she remembers he had a nightmare and got in bed with her and the kitten but nothing else?

What if her son's nightmare was when something happened to baby Lisa? What if the son heard crying, screaming, something of that nature and Lisa tried to cover it up by saying, you were having a bad dream?

 

[dovebar]

IMO FCA snapped and there was no history of her snapping before.
HOW many people who snap and kill have done so before? Not many, thus crimes of passion....someone gets ticked off, blows a gasket and kills someone in a fit of anger. No history needed.

imo

I would be interested in reading some links that show that anyone has just "snapped" without a history of violence and instability, prescription or illicit drug use, etc. Violence is a continuum, and when we do see mothers who kill like this, like Andrea Yates, there is a long history of depression, instability, worries by others over her care of the children. Usually the ex has tried to take the child away because of fears for them, etc. I am not saying it never happens, but I would be interested in reading statistics or studies.

This is what I think is wrong with Pat Brown's assessment. There just isn't any evidence that DB has borderline personality disorder or something similar. She has healthy, functioning relationships with everyone in her life, no criminal or DFS history. She drinks in the way many do - too much. She was embarrassed by that and didn't immediately admit it to LE. She blacked out sufficiently to be hazy on the night's timeline. She lives in a place where people don't lock their doors. She is poor and not mediagenic, like other high-profile parents - so there are not a lot of white, upper-class people organizing searches for her family.