"personal hygeine" of JB

[JMO8778]

well im sure the LE have not released ALL of their evidence to the public. Maybe they do have evidence supporting the douching but have not made that public. ALso, IF she were douched with plain water which is a possiblity that wouldnt show up in a test of her vagina because water could be in there from just taking a bath.

water shouldn't enter the vag. vault unless it is opened,not just from a bath anyway.
they would also be able to tell if it was just water by doing a PH test on the contents.that would also show evidence of douching,unless she was douched with a normal saline solution that held no preservatives or fragrances (normal saline - .9%-same as the body).Someone CORRECT me if I'm wrong,it's been a long time since I had chemistry !

In addition, if they saw douching materials at the ramseys house in the trash or cabinets then they would have AT THAT TIME thought it belonged to PASTY who would ever think it would be used on a child???? But now I think otherwise? In any of the interviwes with Pasty or John did they ever ask them about douches??? This I do not Know. has anybody ever asked Nedra or Pam ?

I don't know about Nedra, but Pam wasn't known for telling the truth !

 

[coloradokares]

BOESP,

The most likely theory is the one that never made it to the book, all those turned over in the book were already in the public domain or considered as invalid by the BPD.

I reckon Steve Thomas has a pretty good idea who killed JonBenet, particularly since he can know for certain whether the missing piece of the paintbrush was left inside JonBenet, whether the blankets were also urine-soaked, whether the size-12's were worn to the White's party, whether JonBenet's vagina contained traces of any douching chemical?

He will know these things and be able to generate a theory more consistent than any of ours.


.

So what your saying now is even Thomas lied to and hoodwinked us all and there basically never will be justice for Jon Benet. The only way I see that happening was the law itself cannot reveal ever how it was Jon Benet died and who killed her! On one else can be that st

 

[UKGuy]

And your evidence that the two were absolutely not related is what? I ask the same that you prove to me the two have no relationship to the the murder other than your personal theory. I personally am acquainted to an investigative reporter , suffice it to say I have more reasons than it must have been a bad burrito I ate that contributes to my suspicions that there were some real issues on the wetting and soiling These are my opinions based an personal conversations held, Now if you have rock solid proof to the contrary I am all ears and would listen for sure cause to me its more important that Jon Benet have justice than to not be willing to hear you out..

coloradokares,

And your evidence that the two were absolutely not related is what? I ask the same that you prove to me the two have no relationship to the the murder other than your personal theory.

You cannot be serious surely, with absolutely nothing to backup your theory you want me to confirm or deny it, put your evidence on the table then we can accept or reject it!

We already know there were bedwetting and soiling issues these have never been denied even by the Ramsey's. JonBenet's used and stained underwear were recovered from her underwear drawer, but douching was not the conclusion the investigator came to when these were found!

Its worth repeating:

Douching, bedwetting, corporal cleaning, have nothing to do with the death of JonBenet, I even doubt they ever occurred on the night of her death, they are not credible as explanations for her death or for the forensic evidence.


.

 

[UKGuy]

So what your saying now is even Thomas lied to and hoodwinked us all and there basically never will be justice for Jon Benet. The only way I see that happening was the law itself cannot reveal ever how it was Jon Benet died and who killed her! On one else can be that st

coloradokares,

Now now, dont misrepresent what I said. Steve Thomas only told you about the theories that had already been rejected, otherwise he is publishing sub-judice material, and privileged information. He never lied , he probably told the truth, he did state that the corporal punishment theory was incomplete and not conclusive, go read his book, he just never told us who he really thought killed JonBenet and why, which is different from saying he lied.

Also all this stuff about him blaming Patsy I reckon is a psychological tactic, she was being blamed in an attempt to force her to defend herself by hopefully naming JonBenet's killer.

I reckon Steve Thomas has enough evidence to promote a theory that is different from what is accepted on this forum. But he needed Patsy's evidence to break the silence!

.

 

[Albert18]

This is why deciding upon John's involvement is so important. Steve Thomas had John in bed. If John is in bed, there wasn't a sexual assault.

Evidence and behavior sure don't support John being involved from the beginning.

Didn't the experts say the sexual injury looked staged, it wasn't what you would expect if it was done for sexual gratification?

If you involve John from minute one, why were Patsy's fibers found where they were? Why isn't the cord tied in a convincing way? Why did Patsy write the ransom note? Why is the ransom note so ridiculous? Why does the ransom note sound feminine? Why is the ransom note written to John? Why did Patsy call 911? Why is Patsy wearing the same clothes the next day but John isn't? Why didn't John carry JonBenet up the stairs wearing the same shirt as the night before? Why didn't John collapse onto JonBenet wearing the same shirt as the night before? Why is Burke awake at the 911 call but in bed by the time the police arrive?

Patsy was a basket case and she is doing all the lifting? John's future is in jeopardy and he is sitting in a chair while Patsy does everything?

 

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

You cannot be serious surely, with absolutely nothing to backup your theory you want me to confirm or deny it, put your evidence on the table then we can accept or reject it!

We already know there were bedwetting and soiling issues these have never been denied even by the Ramsey's. JonBenet's used and stained underwear were recovered from her underwear drawer, but douching was not the conclusion the investigator came to when these were found!

Its worth repeating:

Douching, bedwetting, corporal cleaning, have nothing to do with the death of JonBenet, I even doubt they ever occurred on the night of her death, they are not credible as explanations for her death or for the forensic evidence.


.

You seem to be asking the very same of us with all due respect. Should I then ask if you are serious, I dont joke about the death of Jon Benet I apologize to you and the forum but it appears you kabosh our theories and suggest we are way off, yet please present your own theory if we are so misinformed Please back it up as you requested of me.

 

[BOESP]

phenolred,

If Patsy thought it was normal, why have we not heard about it yet?

Even if she was douched, and wet the bed, and was corporally cleaned on the night she died, this does not explain all the forensic evidence.

Douching if it ever occurred is incidental to her death, it did not cause it.


.

UKGuy, I think some believe douching might possibly explain the signs of chronic vaginal trauma/hymeneal erosion indicated by the autopsy and other expert opinions, as opposed to prior sexual abuse by a male (or female) for sexual gratification.

 

[BOESP]

But I don't think any of the staging was done because of previous events. I think all the staging was directed at the fact JonBenet was dead....

That's what the evidence suggests to me too.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

The most likely theory is the one that never made it to the book, all those turned over in the book were already in the public domain or considered as invalid by the BPD.

I reckon Steve Thomas has a pretty good idea who killed JonBenet, particularly since he can know for certain whether the missing piece of the paintbrush was left inside JonBenet, whether the blankets were also urine-soaked, whether the size-12's were worn to the White's party, whether JonBenet's vagina contained traces of any douching chemical?

He will know these things and be able to generate a theory more consistent than any of ours.


.

I certainly agree and I think that's why he wrote the book and why he listed a suspect. It is also possible he was working with John and/or Patsy Ramsey to ferret out the killer. Who can really say except Mr. Thomas. I, for one, think he was working for JonBenet Ramsey.

 

[UKGuy]

This is why deciding upon John's involvement is so important. Steve Thomas had John in bed. If John is in bed, there wasn't a sexual assault.

Evidence and behavior sure don't support John being involved from the beginning.

Didn't the experts say the sexual injury looked staged, it wasn't what you would expect if it was done for sexual gratification?

If you involve John from minute one, why were Patsy's fibers found where they were? Why isn't the cord tied in a convincing way? Why did Patsy write the ransom note? Why is the ransom note so ridiculous? Why does the ransom note sound feminine? Why is the ransom note written to John? Why did Patsy call 911? Why is Patsy wearing the same clothes the next day but John isn't? Why didn't John carry JonBenet up the stairs wearing the same shirt as the night before? Why didn't John collapse onto JonBenet wearing the same shirt as the night before? Why is Burke awake at the 911 call but in bed by the time the police arrive?

Patsy was a basket case and she is doing all the lifting? John's future is in jeopardy and he is sitting in a chair while Patsy does everything?

Albert18,

With due respect , using the staged evidence to build a theory will result in inconsistencies, that is why crimes get staged.

This is why deciding upon John's involvement is so important. Steve Thomas had John in bed. If John is in bed, there wasn't a sexual assault.

QED, nothing more to do.


.

 

[JMO8778]

This is why deciding upon John's involvement is so important. Steve Thomas had John in bed. If John is in bed, there wasn't a sexual assault.

Evidence and behavior sure don't support John being involved from the beginning.

ST seemed to have doubts about that though...he stated JR wasn't acting right for a parent who's child was missing,and why didn't he ask BR anything that morning? why did they lie about him being up,and why did they send him back to bed?why shuffle him off to the White's,unescorted? why wasn't he afraid of the 'SFF' and why didn't he tell LE to lay low? why did the phone and JB's med records go missing?why did he get suspicious of JR's 'this had to be an inside job' comment? WHY DID JR ASK FOR HIS GOLF BAG? ..he also brought up the fact the word 'incest' was looked up,among other things...while he doesn't outright blame JR,molestation and JR being involved in the coverup b/f the fact is indeed an underlying theory in his book.

Patsy was a basket case and she is doing all the lifting? John's future is in jeopardy and he is sitting in a chair while Patsy does everything?

Patsy was indeed a basket case,and I believe that whatever happened,JR took over in a businesslike manner and directed her.And she listened and did what she was told to do.

 

[JMO8778]

This is why deciding upon John's involvement is so important. Steve Thomas had John in bed. If John is in bed, there wasn't a sexual assault.

but then if he was up,maybe there was a sexual assault.we know from the fiber evidence that he indeed was up.

If you involve John from minute one, why were Patsy's fibers found where they were?

I believe he asked her to go find these items,and so she did.the underwear was wrapped and new..thus her fibers were not on it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Why isn't the cord tied in a convincing way?

I think it was a sexual staging originally,when they'd planned to get her out of the house,ie-'denied her remains for proper burial'.JR forgot to restage those when they decided to leave her in the basement..and so he lied and said they were tied tightly,when in fact they weren't.

Why did Patsy write the ransom note?

no matter what happened,do you think JR was about to put his stink on it?? nope...he had Patsy do it.

Why is the ransom note so ridiculous? Why does the ransom note sound feminine?

Patsy put her .02 worth into it..it was also a desperate attempt to point to someone(s) outside the home.


Why is the ransom note written to John?

b/c that was part of the trick to it...he was there,but written that way in an attempt to make it look like he wasn't.

Why did Patsy call 911?

Patsy was the theatrical one in the family.she was better at acting than JR.

Why is Patsy wearing the same clothes the next day but John isn't?

Patsy perhaps felt no need to shower and change clothes,in order to wash off forensic evidence,as JR did.perhaps this implicates JR more than Patsy.

Why didn't John carry JonBenet up the stairs wearing the same shirt as the night before? Why didn't John collapse onto JonBenet wearing the same shirt as the night before?

he was involved in the staging more than Patsy was..he had enough sense to get it off and shower.perhaps Patsy felt no need to if all she did was get the items for JR.perhaps JR was silently setting her up as well?thus the reason he had no problem handing LE the notepad the RN was written on..he knew he didn't write it..Patsy did!


Why is Burke awake at the 911 call but in bed by the time the police arrive?


they wanted no q's asked of him.being asleep appears he knew nothing and would not be asked.that's how they wanted it,in case he'd overheard something.

John's future is in jeopardy and he is sitting in a chair while Patsy does everything?

JR wasn't exactly sitting in a chair..he was a lot more involved than was thought to be,IMO. I sense he did a lot of hiding behind Patsy and her theatrical ways.

 

[DeeDee249]

ST may place JR in bed that night (personally, that is one aspect of ST's theory I disagree with) but even if this is the case it STILL doesn't mean there was no previous sexual assault. The chronic evidence, as stated by Boulder's own coroner, indicated likely digital penetration. It had to be done by someone with easy, private, repeated access to JBR. And be someone she felt she could not resist OR report. Possibly even someone she loved. (it often IS when kids are abused, sadly, it makes the abuse even more horrible).

We'll never know about the douching for sure. As long as the Boulder DA's office keeps this case "open" :laugh: they don't have to show us what they've got.

 

[DeeDee249]

:clap:
well said !! do you think she as killed in the basement? b/c along w the scream heard,and the sexual attack (family member hiding her from others for it),that appears likely to me.but then what about the ligatures...why not tie them tightly as if it were a KN,(why leave 15 inches in between the wrists?) and why did JR later lie and say they were tied tightly,when they weren't..any ideas?
I also have to wonder about the 'secret santa' visit...to me it seems it was a lure by a family member to get her into the basement...esp. since it was supposed to be *secret.I don't think the R's knew it was something innocent,like santa coming to the MI house..that wouldn't have been a secret.(wasn't JR q'd about a santa suit?)
And I suspect the 'cutesy' pics taken in the basement were done by JR,even if they weren't considered pornographic in nature.

I DO think she was killed in the basement. The scream came from her. If she'd screamed in her room, her brother would have heard, and neighbor Melody Stanton would NOT have heard. There was a vent pipe in the basement and LE tested whether a scream in the basement could be heard at the Stanton's home (where they admittedly always slept with a window open). The vent pipe DID carry the scream outside.

I had seen where there was a Santa suit in the R home that was supposedly used previously for parties. I think it was taken into evidence, right?
But the only fibers found were sourced to PR's red fleece jacket from Christmas and two kinds of fibers associated with JR (the blue fibers from the bathrobe and the black (dark) fiber from the shirt he wore Christmas.

Why the garrotte was tied so loosely is something only the killer/stager knows. The fact that JR lied about her wrists (saying they were tightly tied and he tried to untie her) speaks volumes to me about R guilt. Like the pineapple, it is a lie about something an innocent person would not NEED to lie about. Like the red marks and furrows on her neck, her wrists would also have had the same marks/furrows if they had been tied tightly and remained on her corpse for the 12 hours after death till she was "found". And the full rigor mortis JBR was in when she was brought up (when the cords were "supposedly" untied) would have caused her arms and hands to remain close together even if the cords were untied or cut by JR. And this fact would have been noted by the coroner. And also noted by LA, who reported observing the body in rigor, with blue lips and death's pallor and the beginning odor of decay. The odor of urine, while likely present because of the stained clothes, was NOT what LA smelled exclusively. Decomposition begins internally surprisingly soon after death, less than 30 minutes indoors, faster in warmer conditions. Forensic Entomology dictates that the first insect involvement with a corpse left outside in warmer weather occurs in about 10 minutes, because insects have a keen sense of smell and can detect the internal composition and chemical changes in the blood, which also produce an odor. This did not occur with JBR because she died indoors in winter. It would have happened eventually, but it would have taken MUCH longer.

 

[Ames]

I DO think she was killed in the basement. The scream came from her. If she'd screamed in her room, her brother would have heard, and neighbor Melody Stanton would NOT have heard. There was a vent pipe in the basement and LE tested whether a scream in the basement could be heard at the Stanton's home (where they admittedly always slept with a window open). The vent pipe DID carry the scream outside.

I had seen where there was a Santa suit in the R home that was supposedly used previously for parties. I think it was taken into evidence, right?
But the only fibers found were sourced to PR's red fleece jacket from Christmas and two kinds of fibers associated with JR (the blue fibers from the bathrobe and the black (dark) fiber from the shirt he wore Christmas.

Why the garrotte was tied so loosely is something only the killer/stager knows. The fact that JR lied about her wrists (saying they were tightly tied and he tried to untie her) speaks volumes to me about R guilt. Like the pineapple, it is a lie about something an innocent person would not NEED to lie about. Like the red marks and furrows on her neck, her wrists would also have had the same marks/furrows if they had been tied tightly and remained on her corpse for the 12 hours after death till she was "found". And the full rigor mortis JBR was in when she was brought up (when the cords were "supposedly" untied) would have caused her arms and hands to remain close together even if the cords were untied or cut by JR. And this fact would have been noted by the coroner. And also noted by LA, who reported observing the body in rigor, with blue lips and death's pallor and the beginning odor of decay. The odor of urine, while likely present because of the stained clothes, was NOT what LA smelled exclusively. Decomposition begins internally surprisingly soon after death, less than 30 minutes indoors, faster in warmer conditions. Forensic Entomology dictates that the first insect involvement with a corpse left outside in warmer weather occurs in about 10 minutes, because insects have a keen sense of smell and can detect the internal composition and chemical changes in the blood, which also produce an odor. This did not occur with JBR because she died indoors in winter. It would have happened eventually, but it would have taken MUCH longer.

Yes it does....and lets not forget that John, in his 98 interview...said that JB's wrists were tied closely together. I would hardly call 15 inches of rope in between each wrist....tied CLOSELY together....but rather...tied far apart from each other.

 

[JMO8778]

Yes it does....and lets not forget that John, in his 98 interview...said that JB's wrists were tied closely together. I would hardly call 15 inches of rope in between each wrist....tied CLOSELY together....but rather...tied far apart from each other.

I suspect a first staging involved placing her arms over her head and the ligatures loosely to suggest a sexual bondage type staging.But rigor set in by the time she was restaged,and it was too late to change the position of her arms.
I think he meant to retie those but forgot to,due to being in a rush and lack of time...they needed to call 911 and were already running late for that.

 

[Ames]

I suspect a first staging involved placing her arms over her head and the ligatures loosely to suggest a sexual bondage type staging.But rigor set in by the time she was restaged,and it was too late to change the position of her arms.
I think he meant to retie those but forgot to,due to being in a rush and lack of time...they needed to call 911 and were already running late for that.

I wonder if they were tied that far apart, to use up all of the rope. What if there were only so much of it left....and so to use it up....and avoid cutting it, and having to dispose of the rest of it....they used what was left....and that's why there was 15 inches between each wrists. John might have realized how ridiculous that looked, to have that much rope in between, and was going to tie them closer together...but ran out of time..as you said. But...IN HIS MIND...he thought that he had tied them closer..because it was on his "LIST" of things to do before the police arrived. That is why..maybe..he said that they were tied closely together.

 

[DeeDee249]

Possibly. Though I don't know that there was that much thought put into it as far as using up the rope. From OUR point of view, it's a good explanation, because we are involved in the matter of figuring out what happened to the REST of the cord or if there WAS a remnant left. But I'm not so sure that was the stager's reason for having the 15-inch length between her wrists. I think the cord that was used for the garrotte and binding WAS all used in the staging. There was this one piece in PR's paint tote handy along with the very opportunistic paintbrush. NOT pre-planned. Used because they were THERE. Used because this was a crime of abuse and a violent head bash- that needed to me made to look like a kidnapping/strangulation. It was one kind of crime staged to look like another. And because the cord was there at hand, the crime could be easily staged to look like a strangulation. Had that not been the case (with the paintbrush/cord/tape) so handy, they might have had to resort to throwing her off that 3-story balcony to hide what really happened.

 

[Albert18]

ST seemed to have doubts about that though...he stated JR wasn't acting right for a parent who's child was missing,and why didn't he ask BR anything that morning? why did they lie about him being up,and why did they send him back to bed?why shuffle him off to the White's,unescorted? why wasn't he afraid of the 'SFF' and why didn't he tell LE to lay low? why did the phone and JB's med records go missing?why did he get suspicious of JR's 'this had to be an inside job' comment? WHY DID JR ASK FOR HIS GOLF BAG? ..

But these things all happen later.

I'm not saying John didn't know what was going on at some point and it was probably early. It may well have been before the 911 call. But there is a big difference between knowing and being involved.

The evidence suggests Patsy was the active one before people arrive and after everybody arrives at the house, John becomes active and Patsy retreats into the shadows. Why would this be? Could it be John steps forward only when it is safe to do so. What happened that night should have landed someone in prison. Why would John insert himself into the crime if he didn't have to? I think people are much too flippant about this.

I think John was very rational. He was taking care of John. He couldn't do anything to bring JonBenet back to life. Burke wasn't in danger. So his first priority was to protect himself and once he thought he was safe, he started to help Patsy. John couldn't be safe until all the people arrived and were witnesses for him. That is when he steps forward.

A big clue in this is the ransom note. The ransom note is ridiculous. Why didn't John have Patsy write a decent ransom note? Even if it was at the last minute, the 911 call could have been made at 6:10 and that gives them about 15 minutes for Patsy to write a more believable ransom note. A decent ransom note is only a few lines long. The only conclusion I can reach is that he didn't know before the 911 call or he knew, but didn't want to involve himself. I suspect he knew.

 

[Boyzmomee]

Vinegar douches or baking soda douches used to be a home remedy. I'm not saying this is what happened in JonBenet's case but I can see a mother passing an old-wive's-tale remedy down in the family. It was once a common practice. Feminine hygiene mist seems to have replaced the practice. I can't imagine doing that to a child but I know some people who have.

That is so sick and inappropriate.