"personal hygeine" of JB

[JMO8778]

Actually, this may point to the death occuring even closer to her 10 pm return home than previously thought.

how so? (I'm not disagreeing with you,I just don't understand the whole concept).sounds likely,IMO,I've always thought the dec 25 date on her grave was done b/c they knew it was correct and she'd died on the 25th,not the next day.

 

[Toltec]

how so? (I'm not disagreeing with you,I just don't understand the whole concept).sounds likely,IMO,I've always thought the dec 25 date on her grave was done b/c they knew it was correct and she'd died on the 25th,not the next day.

JonBenet had pineapple in her small intestines...meaning she died at least two hours after consuming it. My theory is that she died around midnight...the USUAL ROUTINE is that Patsy would wake her to use the toilet.

One thing we don't know is ..... was the red turtleneck wet? Was it urine or water? We do know it was crumpled but that's it.

 

[DeeDee249]

how so? (I'm not disagreeing with you,I just don't understand the whole concept).sounds likely,IMO,I've always thought the dec 25 date on her grave was done b/c they knew it was correct and she'd died on the 25th,not the next day.

I was just thinking about the progression of rigor mortis. If her arms were already so stiff that the cord could be pulled no closer than 15 inches apart, then her death SURELY occured by midnight. And yes, the pineapple would have taken about 2 hours to get to the small intestine, so that points to her being AWAKE going into the house around 10pm (or if carried in, waking up immediately after) and having her pineapple snack right after arriving home. So the Rs absolutely knew which of the two dates belonged on the tombstone.

Full rigor is usually seen by 12 hours after death. She was "found" at 1pm in full rigor. The mouth/jaw stiffened first. (her mouth was probably closed at death, and the tape was described as being placed on her mouth after death because of her lip prints and lack of movement). Then the arms. Her legs were still pliable enough to tape together. So the arms probably stiffened hours before the legs. Rigor lasts 36 hours. When the autopsy photos were taken, her mouth was open, rigor had already passed off on that muscle group. I have never seen an actual autopsy photo showing her arms, but they are portrayed as being down at her sides on the autopsy table in PMPT, and I HAVE seen an actual autopsy photo showing her bruised shoulder, and her arms are definitely NOT over her head in that photo. It was the morning of December 27th when the autopsy was done, right around that 36 hour mark. She was probably no longer in rigor mortis at that time. Keep in mind, rigor mortis is not exact. It happens in the same way, but takes different lenghths of time depending on cause of death, body temperature right before death, temperature of the surrounding air. So all this definitely points to a time of death sometime around midight Christmas Day, IMHO. Certainly no later than 1am, but I feel one of the few "truths" the Rs told was that date on her grave marker.

 

[JMO8778]

thx Dee,that definitely all makes sense !! Dr Spitz est. TOD at or b/f 1AM,but considering the time the R's left the White's,the stop-offs which they didn't stay long at,(and I don't think they lied about those...they had a trip to make the next day) ...and then the pineapple digestion being 2 hrs later,it appears to be very close to 12am,or a bit b/f.Remember the n-bor saw the flashlight lights in the kitchen around midnight,and obv. she was dead by then,or they wouldn't have been scrounging around w. it like that.I am confused by the scream at 2am...any thoughts? if it went as above,it had to have been Patsy in the basement.but why would she scream then?what occurred w. JB 's body that caused her to do that?

 

[DeeDee249]

thx Dee,that definitely all makes sense !! Dr Spitz est. TOD at or b/f 1AM,but considering the time the R's left the White's,the stop-offs which they didn't stay long at,(and I don't think they lied about those...they had a trip to make the next day) ...and then the pineapple digestion being 2 hrs later,it appears to be very close to 12am,or a bit b/f.Remember the n-bor saw the flashlight lights in the kitchen around midnight,and obv. she was dead by then,or they wouldn't have been scrounging around w. it like that.I am confused by the scream at 2am...any thoughts? if it went as above,it had to have been Patsy in the basement.but why would she scream then?what occurred w. JB 's body that caused her to do that?

I've seen two different times reported for the scream. The first - Mrs. Stanton said the scream was around 12 midnight. I've only seen the 2am time mentioned here. I feel it was JBR screaming, and Stanton was supposed to have said that she could tell the difference between a child's and woman's scream. I think JBR screamed in pain/fear and then was quickly bashed to silence her.
IF it turns out that it was PR who screamed at 2am after all- just seeing her daughter dead, by this time with the waxy pallor of death and livor mortis coloring part of her face and body that awful purple-red would be enough- add to this the sight of how she looked garrotted and with bloody thighs...whether she was the cause of it or not.

 

[Ames]

thx Dee,that definitely all makes sense !! Dr Spitz est. TOD at or b/f 1AM,but considering the time the R's left the White's,the stop-offs which they didn't stay long at,(and I don't think they lied about those...they had a trip to make the next day) ...and then the pineapple digestion being 2 hrs later,it appears to be very close to 12am,or a bit b/f.Remember the n-bor saw the flashlight lights in the kitchen around midnight,and obv. she was dead by then,or they wouldn't have been scrounging around w. it like that.I am confused by the scream at 2am...any thoughts? if it went as above,it had to have been Patsy in the basement.but why would she scream then?what occurred w. JB 's body that caused her to do that?

Well the neighbor that heard her scream, retracted her statement, saying that it may have just been "negative energy"...so we don't really know if she heard a scream or not. And even if she did...she was so confused about whether she actually heard it or not....she may have the time mixed up too.

 

[Ames]

I've seen two different times reported for the scream. The first - Mrs. Stanton said the scream was around 12 midnight. I've only seen the 2am time mentioned here. I feel it was JBR screaming, and Stanton was supposed to have said that she could tell the difference between a child's and woman's scream. I think JBR screamed in pain/fear and then was quickly bashed to silence her.
IF it turns out that it was PR who screamed at 2am after all- just seeing her daughter dead, by this time with the waxy pallor of death and livor mortis coloring part of her face and body that awful purple-red would be enough- add to this the sight of how she looked garrotted and with bloody thighs...whether she was the cause of it or not.

I think that it was Patsy that screamed when she realized what she had done to her daughter, right after she slammed her head into the side of the tub, or the sink...and JB was unconsious, and bleeding from her nose, ears, mouth...Patsy probably thought that she was dead THEN.

 

[DeeDee249]

Or Melanie Stanton could have been "silenced". If I recall, she didn't want to come forward about the scream at first. When questioned further about it, THEN she said that maybe it wasn't a scream but rather "negative energy" from JBR.
I believe she heard the scream, then got leaned on to shut up about it. Leaned on so hard she eventually moved away from Boulder.
And what about her husband? He also claimed to have heard "metal scraping concrete".
Of course, it IS possible it was PR who screamed, and yes, realizing what she'd done would certainly do it, but if the scream was from the bathroom on JBR's floor, I doubt Stanton would have heard it. There was a vent in the basement, right outside the wineceller, and I believe LE had done sound tests to see if a basement scream could be heard across the street (it could). I've seen conflicting reports about whether the same scream could be heard on the third floor, in the parent's bedroom. A child's scream would certainly wake up sleeping parents, especially so soon after they fell asleep. Not to mention if PR screamed by JBR's room, BR would have heard it.

 

[JMO8778]

Or Melanie Stanton could have been "silenced". If I recall, she didn't want to come forward about the scream at first. When questioned further about it, THEN she said that maybe it wasn't a scream but rather "negative energy" from JBR.
I believe she heard the scream, then got leaned on to shut up about it. Leaned on so hard she eventually moved away from Boulder.
And what about her husband? He also claimed to have heard "metal scraping concrete".
Of course, it IS possible it was PR who screamed, and yes, realizing what she'd done would certainly do it, but if the scream was from the bathroom on JBR's floor, I doubt Stanton would have heard it. There was a vent in the basement, right outside the wineceller, and I believe LE had done sound tests to see if a basement scream could be heard across the street (it could). I've seen conflicting reports about whether the same scream could be heard on the third floor, in the parent's bedroom. A child's scream would certainly wake up sleeping parents, especially so soon after they fell asleep. Not to mention if PR screamed by JBR's room, BR would have heard it.

I agree w. all of it ! Her Husb. wasn't hushed since that could lend to the IDI theory.But I def. think she was afraid.And Burke would have wondered what the heck happened *then,not next morning during the 911 call. (you're right,they did do tests on it)

 

[Toltec]

Or Melanie Stanton could have been "silenced". If I recall, she didn't want to come forward about the scream at first. When questioned further about it, THEN she said that maybe it wasn't a scream but rather "negative energy" from JBR.
I believe she heard the scream, then got leaned on to shut up about it. Leaned on so hard she eventually moved away from Boulder.
And what about her husband? He also claimed to have heard "metal scraping concrete".
Of course, it IS possible it was PR who screamed, and yes, realizing what she'd done would certainly do it, but if the scream was from the bathroom on JBR's floor, I doubt Stanton would have heard it. There was a vent in the basement, right outside the wineceller, and I believe LE had done sound tests to see if a basement scream could be heard across the street (it could). I've seen conflicting reports about whether the same scream could be heard on the third floor, in the parent's bedroom. A child's scream would certainly wake up sleeping parents, especially so soon after they fell asleep. Not to mention if PR screamed by JBR's room, BR would have heard it.

Patsy told LE that she has nightmares of JonBenet screaming?

 

[DeeDee249]

Patsy told LE that she has nightmares of JonBenet screaming?

Actually, nothing in my post says that. You may be misunderstanding what I am saying. I am talking about the scream that neighbor Melanie Stanton heard the night of the murder. I feel what she heard was JBR screaming just before she was bashed on the head. Some posters feel it may have been PR screaming after realizing JBR was dead.

However, I believe I saw it posted somewhere here that PR did tell that to LE.

 

[JMO8778]

In one of the interviews,Patsy said she had nightmares,and that she also had 'flashbacks of JonBenet screaming'.. she even differentiated between the two.Flashbacks are remembering a real event,whereas nightmares may or may not be.

 

[Toltec]

Actually, nothing in my post says that. You may be misunderstanding what I am saying. I am talking about the scream that neighbor Melanie Stanton heard the night of the murder. I feel what she heard was JBR screaming just before she was bashed on the head. Some posters feel it may have been PR screaming after realizing JBR was dead.

However, I believe I saw it posted somewhere here that PR did tell that to LE.

I didn't misunderstand your post...I am merely saying that the two are somehow connected. If Melody Stanton heard a scream...and Patsy had "flashbacks of JonBenet screaming", then there is somehow some truth in that JonBenet must have screamed before being struck.

 

[DeeDee249]

Sorry- guess I misunderstood you. I have no doubt that JBR screamed just before she was bashed. And the Rs heard it.

 

[Theonly1]

There have been posts here and there about Jonbenet being douched now and again or something like that.... do we know where this came from, if it's fact? I don't know where / when I read it, or why I didn't jump all over that info.... because it would certainly seem beyond odd.

If JonBenet had been douched with a long applicator could that have caused some erosion of her hymen?

Mind you, I know that douching a child of six years is ridiculous.

 

[DeeDee249]

If JonBenet had been douched with a long applicator could that have caused some erosion of her hymen?

Mind you, I know that douching a child of six years is ridiculous.

Possibly. Not sure of the applicator would have caused scarring or other injuries.
There WAS something said about PR being known to douche JB because of her soiling problems. PR may have been trying to prevent the urinary tract infections that occasionally happen in little girls because of fecal contamination of the urinary tract. JB's infections were not said to be UTIs, though. More vaginitis.

Quite awhile back on a thread there was a discussion that possibly JB had been douched the night she was killed- maybe a bit too forcefully- and it caused the bleeding that required the wiping of her thighs and pubic area (which was noted in her autopsy).
But the way I see it, if that had been the case, it would have had to happen before the head bash, while she was awake. In that case, PR would have stood her in the bathtub and washed her down. She wouldn't have needed to be wiped with a cloth. The autopsy finding seem to me to indicate that she was unconscious or dead and wiped where she lay. The longjohns have not been reported as having blood on them, and there were only a few drops on the size 12 panties. So this tells me that she was nude (from the waist down at least) when wiped down, then the new panties and her longjohns were placed back on her. Whatever blood drops that were on the panties were the result of a tiny amount of residual blood that was present internally (and described in the autopsy report).

 

[anne11]

If she was forcibly douched would the physical trauma have been noted at the autopsy?

 

[DeeDee249]

If she was forcibly douched would the physical trauma have been noted at the autopsy?

I am sure it would be. If the douching was recent- there may have been evidence of the douching solution in the vaginal. None was noted.